John 6:44. Election/Salvation Questions

lesliedellow said:

Total depravity means that men are unable to do anything pleasing to God, because their motives are never pure. It does not mean that they are incapable of doing things of which everybody would approve.

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This may not exactly sound very humble, but, my motives are pure (now), it's just my actions that sometimes are not...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

This may not exactly sound very humble, but, my motives are pure (now), it's just my actions that sometimes are not...

God Bless!

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You haven't peered very deeply into yourself.

lesliedellow said:

You haven't peered very deeply into yourself.

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Oh yes, I have, trust me on that one... (I've peered into the dark depths of the abyss, and had it peer back into me...) Like I said, it wasn't always so, but, only "now" they (most of the time) are (now)...

I hardly ever have ill intent toward anyone or anything anymore (now) (not always) (but most of the time) But, I think the credit for that goes to him, not me...

I know what almost all darkness is personally, and that experience shook me to the core and changed me to this now...

The darkness even tried to tell me I was it, but Jesus tells me otherwise, and that's how I know that is a lie... But, he almost had me convinced, I almost went there, permanently, with no hope of return... Thank You Jesus!

God Bless!

lesliedellow said:

Total depravity means that men are unable to do anything pleasing to God, because their motives are never pure. It does not mean that they are incapable of doing things of which everybody would approve.

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You are missing the point. I said nothing about "everybody would approve".
I stated the obvious, that humans can do virtuous things, regardless of their religious leanings or Calvin's opinions on the subject.

One must read ALL the scriptures regarding any issue. Anyone can string a few together to give the appearance of a doctrine. But to be truly seeking God's message our assessment MUST also take into account those passages that appear to contradict a taught theology. Sometimes God offers what appears to be contrary positions. Why? Because the truth is in neither extreme but is greater than both when taken selectively.

Widlast said:

You are missing the point. I said nothing about "everybody would approve".
I stated the obvious, that humans can do virtuous things, regardless of their religious leanings or Calvin's opinions on the subject.

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Yes! Even some atheists I know are very moral caring and generous persons as persons go but Calvin was still incorrect. He never grasped (or probably studied) the other half of his own source's (Augustine) view. Augustine in fact refutes the Calvinist perspective (long before he was born) as another extreme equally as incorrect as Pelagianism.

Augustine, On Grace and Free Will
Chapter 1

"With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him (like Pelagius), and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us.

But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended (like Calvin), I have determined to write somewhat on this point…

Chapter 2

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine (meaning through scripture). There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin…

Chapter 3

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (saying all they do or did is God’s will). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart (we see this in militant Islam where even if they kill and torture or rape they say it was the will of Allah). Proverbs 19:3...Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man… The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will….

Chapter 4

What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God?

Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27"

SO....

This along with the anti-Pelegius points are the exact understanding always held from as far back as those who the Apostles themselves (who were taught by Christ) taught and appointed as the 1st leaders of Christendom. Now some Calvinists will now claim Augustine was mistaken or try to re-interpret or ignore so many of the scriptures supporting his view (the complete view includes ALL the scriptures on favored by each extreme) but do not forget it was allegedly Augustine's Against Pelegius that allegedly led Calvin to his view.

pshun2404 said:

Now some Calvinists will now claim Augustine was mistaken or try to re-interpret or ignore so many of the scriptures supporting his view (the complete view includes ALL the scriptures on favored by each extreme) but do not forget it was allegedly Augustine's Against Pelegius that allegedly led Calvin to his view.

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All Calvinists would have to claim is that Augustine changed his mind, which he did, and we have that from the mouth of Augustine himself, although that is not the passage posted below.

"Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord."
(Chapter 16 of "A Treatise on The Predestination of The Saints")

lesliedellow said:

All Calvinists would have to claim is that Augustine changed his mind, which he did, and we have that from the mouth of Augustine himself, although that is not the passage posted below.

"Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glorieth may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord."
(Chapter 16 of "A Treatise on The Predestination of The Saints")

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Well no doubt we are all worthy of condemnation if it not be by grace, God alone has the power and sole authority to save, but the question is what has God determined to be means for making that determination. Some would say random arbitrary choice and others because He foreknew which if given opportunity who would accept Christ.

As we see in Calvin's "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23, when he says "....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death." Calvin (as opposed to post Synod of Dort "Reformed" theology), believed the evil man was created to be evil (it was God's will). The temptations by which he was tempted and his giving in to them were God's doing (it was God's will). This is what he believed. EVERY thought, action, and deed of a man was what God made him to do. Therefore all his abominable deeds were ultimately caused by God (it was God's will). God is thus the author of all sin (which He confesses to abhor).

So if that is true then every rapist, sociopath, pedophile, murderer, and every devil (even Satan) were only doing and fulfilling God's will.

After Dort the Reformed changed this to mean all men have free will, but only to sin and fall short, and then God in His mercy arbitrarily chooses to save some (in the counsel of His own will which apparently contradicts His own reveled will).

Finally, as a pure or strict Calvinist for the first 10 years as a Christian who was instructed in all the arguments to defend his view and made to see and reinterpret much of the plain word of God through this lens, I know the difference.

pshun2404 said:

Calvin (as opposed to post Synod of Dort "Reformed" theology), believed the evil man was created to be evil (it was God's will). The temptations by which he was tempted and his giving in to them were God's doing (it was God's will). This is what he believed. EVERY thought, action, and deed of a man was what God made him to do. Therefore all his abominable deeds were ultimately caused by God (it was God's will). God is thus the author of all sin (which He confesses to abhor).

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Calvin doesn't say this. You are adding to his words.

We are all deserving of condemnation because of our our own guilt. God has mercy on some. Mercy is not obligatory. If it were, it would not be mercy.

pshun2404 said:

I know the difference.

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That's nice for you, except that you misrepresent Calvin. Like all Calvinists today, Calvin believed that nothing comes to pass without God foreordaining it, and that includes evils such as the crucifixion. But divine preordination of the crucifixion, and divine predestination of Judas to death, does not alter the fact that Judas freely chose to betray Jesus.