Is there a possible world where Adam/Eve do not eat of the tree?

Achilles6129

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Was God then incapable of, say, banishing the serpent from the garden permanently before he tempted Eve (as He banished the fallen Adam)

That's a good question, and we may never know the answer. It's possible that God has to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted for some reason; i.e., he has to allow the other side (Satan) to present their case.

or, if He "walked in the garden in the cool of the day," could God not have stood beside Eve when the serpent tempted her to support her right decision?

I would say that at that point the Spirit of God indwelt both Adam/Eve so some sort of physical presence would have been unnecessary.

Do we really know if "Abimelech and Sodom are isolated cases"? And even if they are, do they not show what God can do, since we are talking of possibilities? And need we stop there at the tools in God's kit, as it were?

Well, they are isolated cases of Scripture, yes. We will never know other possibilities unless we're specifically told, and we're not. So all we can do is speculate.
 
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CrystalDragon

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When the dragon's tail swept 1/3 of the stars from the sky in Rev. 12.

Thing is, people say Revelation is about the future. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's completely about the future except for this one tiny little bit that you say "Oh, that must mean the past!" Besides, it says stars, not angels.
 
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CrystalDragon

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That's a good question, and we may never know the answer. It's possible that God has to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted for some reason; i.e., he has to allow the other side (Satan) to present their case.



I would say that at that point the Spirit of God indwelt both Adam/Eve so some sort of physical presence would have been unnecessary.



Well, they are isolated cases of Scripture, yes. We will never know other possibilities unless we're specifically told, and we're not. So all we can do is speculate.


Satan wasn't even the serpent in Genesis. The text in Genesis itself gives no indication that the serpent was anything more than a snake (with legs, apparently, since it was cursed to slither on the ground, which wouldn't make sense for a punishment if it was actually Satan).
 
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Achilles6129

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Thing is, people say Revelation is about the future. You can't have it both ways. You can't say it's completely about the future except for this one tiny little bit that you say "Oh, that must mean the past!" Besides, it says stars, not angels.

That particular chapter is about the past, that's why it refers to Christ's birth. Stars elsewhere in Scripture and Revelation represent angels.

Satan wasn't even the serpent in Genesis. The text in Genesis itself gives no indication that the serpent was anything more than a snake (with legs, apparently, since it was cursed to slither on the ground, which wouldn't make sense for a punishment if it was actually Satan).

" 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, " Rev. 12:9a
 
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CrystalDragon

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That particular chapter is about the past, that's why it refers to Christ's birth. Stars elsewhere in Scripture and Revelation represent angels.

You have a point there.

" 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, " Rev. 12:9a

Not only was Revelation written symbolically, it was written centuries after anything in the Old Testament. It's like Shakespeare writing about the ghost of Hamlet's father and then someone coming along saying that the ghost of Hamlet's father was actually someone else. There is absolutely nothing in Genesis itself that indicates the serpent was Satan, that was just a view that people came up with centuries later.

Genesis 3:1 - "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”"

It outright says that it was one of the wild animals.

Genesis 3:14-15 -
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

If it was really Satan, wouldn't the punishment have been different? Wouldn't have been God casting out Satan's presence from the serpent? No, God speaks to it as if it was nothing more than a serpent that had legs, and then lost them because it tricked Eve.

The serpent was just a serpent. Nothing more, and nothing less.
 
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Achilles6129

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You have a point there.



Not only was Revelation written symbolically, it was written centuries after anything in the Old Testament. It's like Shakespeare writing about the ghost of Hamlet's father and then someone coming along saying that the ghost of Hamlet's father was actually someone else. There is absolutely nothing in Genesis itself that indicates the serpent was Satan, that was just a view that people came up with centuries later.

Genesis 3:1 - "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”"

It outright says that it was one of the wild animals.

Genesis 3:14-15 -
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

If it was really Satan, wouldn't the punishment have been different? Wouldn't have been God casting out Satan's presence from the serpent? No, God speaks to it as if it was nothing more than a serpent that had legs, and then lost them because it tricked Eve.

The serpent was just a serpent. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Well, it's certainly true that the book of Genesis says nothing about Satan being the serpent. It's something that's mentioned later on in Scripture. I would say that Satan possessed the serpent, obviously, but as for why God actually cursed the animal serpent instead of Satan is an interesting question. Also, how did Satan possess a creature that God made and that he had originally proclaimed to be "very good"? Perhaps Satan himself was actually originally in the form of a serpent cherub, and came to earth as such? But still, it does seem that the animal serpent itself was cursed. Very interesting point.
 
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Well, is there? And if not, why didn't God create that world? And is there a possible world where there is no heavenly rebellion either? Or is there a possible world where no-one rebels against God?
Maybe in one of the Star Trek parallel universes.
 
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I would say that at that point [before and during the temptation] the Spirit of God indwelt both Adam/Eve so some sort of physical presence would have been unnecessary.

Good point, but the above as a response still evades my question. Rephrasing the question (see my post # 59 above), was it impossible for God by nature or purpose to have done more to restrain Adam/Eve from eating of the tree from which He had commanded Adam not to eat? Some sort of divine physical presence may be unnecessary for such restraint on Adam/Eve in their temptation, but that "unnecessary-ness" does not address the aim of my question.

Yes, God was influencing Adam and Eve during the temptation. (God created them and the garden, how could He not have been influencing them?) But was it impossible for God to have exerted greater influence against yielding to temptation during the temptation? Physical presence is merely a device suggested by God walking in the garden in the cool of the day as the actual narrative relates to the reader.

Well, they are isolated cases of Scripture, yes. We will never know other possibilities unless we're specifically told, and we're not. So all we can do is speculate.

Aside from the possibility that we are not yet thinking of or addressing other inferences from Scripture, I agree that the "Abimelech and Sodom" examples in some sense "are isolated cases" of what we are "specifically told" in Scripture.

But the above so far as I can tell still evades my (another) question ("do [the Abimelech and Sodom illustrations] not show what God can do"), perhaps on grounds as you also wrote above that "it's possible that God has to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted for some reason; i.e., he has to allow the other side (Satan) to present their [his?] case."

If that "God has to allow" claim is true, then God cannot create/is incapable of creating a universe (or rather could not have created an alternate history to our world) in which Adam (meaning Adam and Eve) was not tempted to sin (presumably in the manner in which Genesis represents the events), leading us back to your post # 56 claim that "we don't know if there is a possible world where they would not have eaten of the tree."

But I'm not sure the "God has to allow" claim is true or if it is true, I'm not sure it is not patient of more than one meaning, depending on the proposed purpose of the constraint on God or on something proposed as in God's nature. Are you claiming that God has to allow Adam to be tempted by the serpent for the purpose of establishing Adam as an independent moral agent (although I'm not sure I fully understand what that means) or casting the net further afield that God is incapable in Himself of creating a sentient being without obedience testing or that it is impossible for God to have created Adam without planning to glorify Himself through Adam's disobedience or something else?

Granted your language is tentative and infused with the somewhat experimental. You may not (yet?) have a clear answer in every respect.

Then at some risk(?) of stagnation by revisiting illustrations, if God did influence Abimelech sufficient to prevent his sinning, why was God incapable of influencing Adam sufficient to prevent his eating (hence sinning)? If God was capable of influencing Sodom (and Tyre and Sidon) to repent of sin, which would have been a great thing, why was God incapable of influencing Adam not to start sinning, a lesser thing? Is God incapable of doing in one circumstance what He did in another? And if so (not that I think it so here), on what grounds? Why is it mere speculation to claim that God could do (not necessarily what He would do) what we know He has done?

Or if God was indeed constrained "to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted [by the serpent]," was He constrained by anything outside Himself, His own nature and purposes (referencing a number of my above posts/Scripture citations, e.g., that God "works all things according to the counsel of his will," Eph. 1:11)? Again, what do you mean here by the possibility that "God has to allow"? Or more importantly, how do the Scriptures (reference for example Scripture citations of my earlier posts) handle the issue?

Granted such an end may eventually bring us full circle at points, but along the way perhaps I have clarified something of how your responding post # 61 seems partly to evade or misunderstand the previous questions in my post # 59 and how in some ways how I am uncertain what you mean or could mean; this may be useful to you. Whether anything here brings us closer to addressing your OP issue or not may depend partly on what we believe the (somehow theologically harmonized) Scriptures say.
 
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Achilles6129

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Good point, but the above as a response still evades my question. Rephrasing the question (see my post # 59 above), was it impossible for God by nature or purpose to have done more to restrain Adam/Eve from eating of the tree from which He had commanded Adam not to eat? Some sort of divine physical presence may be unnecessary for such restraint on Adam/Eve in their temptation, but that "unnecessary-ness" does not address the aim of my question.

I would say that it was impossible. What more could he have done if they both possessed the Spirit of God? The Spirit of God itself should be all that is necessary to restrain from sin. How could you possibly "outdo" God's Spirit? Or how could God "outdo" his own Spirit?

If that "God has to allow" claim is true, then God cannot create/is incapable of creating a universe (or rather could not have created an alternate history to our world) in which Adam (meaning Adam and Eve) was not tempted to sin (presumably in the manner in which Genesis represents the events), leading us back to your post # 56 claim that "we don't know if there is a possible world where they would not have eaten of the tree."

Yes, I think it absolutely is possible that there is no universe where Adam/Eve were not tempted to sin. Why wouldn't it be?

Then at some risk(?) of stagnation by revisiting illustrations, if God did influence Abimelech sufficient to prevent his sinning, why was God incapable of influencing Adam sufficient to prevent his eating (hence sinning)? If God was capable of influencing Sodom (and Tyre and Sidon) to repent of sin, which would have been a great thing, why was God incapable of influencing Adam not to start sinning, a lesser thing? Is God incapable of doing in one circumstance what He did in another? And if so (not that I think it so here), on what grounds? Why is it mere speculation to claim that God could do (not necessarily what He would do) what we know He has done?

These are totally different situations. Adam/Eve had the Spirit of God, something which is not true of the characters in your other examples.

Or if God was indeed constrained "to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted [by the serpent]," was He constrained by anything outside Himself, His own nature and purposes (referencing a number of my above posts/Scripture citations, e.g., that God "works all things according to the counsel of his will," Eph. 1:11)? Again, what do you mean here by the possibility that "God has to allow"? Or more importantly, how do the Scriptures (reference for example Scripture citations of my earlier posts) handle the issue?

I would say God isn't constrained by anything outside of his own nature. But the fact that God has to allow Adam/Eve to be tempted should be obvious by the fact that God plants the tree of the knowledge of good/evil in the garden of Eden and then commands them not to eat of it. That's a total contradiction unless God has to plant the tree of the knowledge of good/evil in the garden - because of something in his own nature.
 
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DingDing

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Is there a possible world where Adam/Eve do not eat of the tree?
Well, is there? ...

Well, do you suppose there could be a world where farts don't stink? Perhaps you could hold your breath until such a world is revealed, but until then, do let me know how this turns out for you.
 
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I would say that ["for God by nature or purpose to have done more to restrain Adam/Eve from eating of the tree from which He had commanded Adam not to eat"] was impossible. What more could he have done if they both possessed the Spirit of God? The Spirit of God itself should be all that is necessary to restrain from sin. How could you possibly "outdo" God's Spirit? Or how could God "outdo" his own Spirit?

Thank you for further explaining your position. Also note:

1) The claim that Adam and Eve both "possessed the Spirit of God" is of course neither stated nor implied anywhere in Scripture; it is a reasonable theological inference, but as such a limited foundation for drawing conclusions from it. And note that the NT suggests the Spirit acted in different ways before and after Pentecost/the change in covenants old to new: How did He act with Adam before the fall and during the temptation?

2) For humans, indwelling or possession of or by the Spirit of God later referenced in Scripture (such as in the case of King Saul for prophesying or at Pentecost and following) is never used in Scripture to imply "more could [not] have been done" by God or that His Spirit could not have acted differently or more than He did. Indwelling of or possession by the Spirit does not imply the Spirit does all it can in the person.

And if "the Spirit of God itself should be all that is necessary to restrain from sin," why do Christians, indwelt by and baptized in the Holy Spirit, sin?

3) Possibility arises that, if in some sense Adam and Eve were "possessed" or indwelt by the Spirit in the garden, the Spirit left them at the point of temptation "to test [them]" as God did Hezekiah (2 Chron. 32:31).

In other words, your above "impossible for God" conclusion rests on speculations and the improbable.

These are totally different situations. Adam/Eve had the Spirit of God, something which is not true of the characters in your other examples.

In other words, God was incapable of doing an easier thing when He did or said He could have done the harder. I'm not convinced the situations are that different or inapplicable. Moreover, the God who created and who delivered Israel out of the house of bondage and who planned and executed redemption in Jesus (justifying the ungodly, Rom. 4:5)--God as He is portrayed in the Bible--seems by nature rather more powerful and able than your conclusions about what God at the temptation and fall of Adam and Eve could not have done.

You may for example be motivated to defend God's blamelessness in Adam's fall--if so I sympathize--and in the end you may be right that God was constrained by nature as by purpose to test Adam and Eve (the device per its substance being the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), but especially concerning a theory of God being constrained in and by Adam's temptation and fall, I would prefer a less speculative basis and one closer to the implications of Scripture as far as we can reasonably push those (again referencing some of my earlier posts).
 
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Achilles6129

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Thank you for further explaining your position. Also note:

1) The claim that Adam and Eve both "possessed the Spirit of God" is of course neither stated nor implied anywhere in Scripture; it is a reasonable theological inference, but as such a limited foundation for drawing conclusions from it. And note that the NT suggests the Spirit acted in different ways before and after Pentecost/the change in covenants old to new: How did He act with Adam before the fall and during the temptation?

Well, if they were both perfect/sinless, then obviously they must have had the Spirit of God. There would be no other way for them to be sinless.

2) For humans, indwelling or possession of or by the Spirit of God later referenced in Scripture (such as in the case of King Saul for prophesying or at Pentecost and following) is never used in Scripture to imply "more could [not] have been done" by God or that His Spirit could not have acted differently or more than He did. Indwelling of or possession by the Spirit does not imply the Spirit does all it can in the person.

Certainly one can lose the Spirit of God after one has it, at least up to a point; your example of King Saul is a good one. Paul also talks about not "quenching the Spirit." But I think that you would agree that if one has the Spirit of God then one is righteous, wouldn't you?

And if "the Spirit of God itself should be all that is necessary to restrain from sin," why do Christians, indwelt by and baptized in the Holy Spirit, sin?

Well, I guess this leads us to some deeper theology. There are passages of Scripture which say they do not sin:

"4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 Jn. 3:3-10 (NIV)

"18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them." 1 Jn. 5:18 (NIV)

Whether the NIV is correct in its translation of "continue to sin" versus another translation that just says "sin" is up in the air, I think.

"11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God." 3 Jn. 11 (NIV)

In other words, God was incapable of doing an easier thing when He did or said He could have done the harder. I'm not convinced the situations are that different or inapplicable. Moreover, the God who created and who delivered Israel out of the house of bondage and who planned and executed redemption in Jesus (justifying the ungodly, Rom. 4:5)--God as He is portrayed in the Bible--seems by nature rather more powerful and able than your conclusions about what God at the temptation and fall of Adam and Eve could not have done.

Again, I'd bring to your attention the fact that God himself created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then commanded them not to eat of it. You should address this, because if God "could have done more" then it leads to a contradiction. The only way to reconcile the contradiction is to say that God is forced, by his own nature, to place the tree in the garden.
 
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