What do you think about textual variants in NT?

Open Heart · Mar 8, 2017

AbbaLove said:
Is it not possible for a Christian (non-Jew) at one time or another having been filled with the Holy Spirit during the past 1,965 years from say 50-53 AD (Antioch) thru 2017)? Do you believe most/all of the canonized Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Saints were at one time or another filled with the Holy Spirit (e.g. Mother Teresa).

Of course I believe the EO and Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Why have you put "non-Jew" in parenthesis? What do you do with Christians who are Jews like Peter, Paul, James, John, and ME?

What I'm trying to say is that Christians confuse their own emotions, their own thoughts, and their own intuition with the leading of the Holy Spirit. That is how Spirit Filled Christians can disagree over important doctrinal issues.

ToBeLoved · Mar 11, 2017

Open Heart said:
I've never really had the idea that "God dictated the Bible like a CEO dictates a letter to a secretary." I've always understood that the Bible is inspired. INSPIRED. Nothing more, nothing less. (With the exception of God talking to Moses.) God is speaking to us THROUGH MEN. The men who wrote the Bible chose the words, the arguments, the examples to use... They drew from their culture, their upbringing, their educations... They remembered things slightly different.

If I have two texts to use, I go with the earlier text. I'll always go with the original language over a translation (i.e. Masoretic over Septuagint). But its not a big deal to me.

I hope no one is getting too bent out of shape by the differences in manuscripts. If it's causing serious problems, I would worry that a person is into some kind of Bibliolatry, and needs to spend more time worshipping God.

Why would the exception be Moses and not Yeshua?

Why would you even think there is an exception. I would think God would tell us if their was an exception so then Moses would be in the same category as the rest.

Unless you are picking and choosing to support your own theology and not because of God at all.

ToBeLoved · Mar 11, 2017

Open Heart said:
Of course I believe the EO and Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Why have you put "non-Jew" in parenthesis? What do you do with Christians who are Jews like Peter, Paul, James, John, and ME?

What I'm trying to say is that Christians confuse their own emotions, their own thoughts, and their own intuition with the leading of the Holy Spirit. That is how Spirit Filled Christians can disagree over important doctrinal issues.

That is then against the Bible.

To believe only some Christians have the Holy Spirit calls Yeshua a liar because He is the one who said He was sending the Holy Spirit to His Children.

So unless you are saying the other Christian s are not Yeshua's Children, which is a huge statement, you are going against the Bible saying that only some denominations have the Holy Spirit.

This would then probably invalidate anyone having the Holy Spirit after the apostles death.

visionary · Mar 11, 2017

AbbaLove said:
Is it not possible for a Christian (non-Jew) at one time or another having been filled with the Holy Spirit during the past 1,965 years from say 50-53 AD (Antioch) thru 2017)? Do you believe most/all of the canonized Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Saints were at one time or another filled with the Holy Spirit (e.g. Mother Teresa).

Exodus 31:3
I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
Micah 3:8
On the other hand I am filled with power-- With the Spirit of the LORD-- And with justice and courage To make known to Jacob his rebellious act, Even to Israel his sin.
Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit *in those days.
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 6:5
The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
Acts 9:17
So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Is it even possible for a Christian non-Jew (e.g. Roman Catholic Saint) or a Messianic Jew to have a personal relationship with the LORD without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;
16 and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforting Counselor like me, the Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever.
17 The world cannot receive him, because it neither sees nor knows him. You know him, because he is staying with you and will be united with you.

Aren't these Words of Yeshua just as true today whether a follower of Yeshua/Jesus goes by the name of a Messianic Jew or a Messianic Christian (non-Jew)?

Mother Teresa is not a good example, as she said herself, "[There is so much contradiction in my soul.—Such deep longing for God—so deep that it is painful—a suffering continual—and yet not wanted by God—repulsed—empty—no faith—no love—no zeal.—Souls hold no attraction—Heaven means nothing—to me it looks like an empty place—the thought of it means nothing to me and yet this torturing longing for God.—Pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything. For I am only His—so He has ever right over me. I am perfectly happy to be nobody even to God. . . . ."

Now does that sound like someone who has experienced the peace that passes all understanding. I am not saying that her devotion is not admirable. I am just saying that her faith didn't give her the peace every born again believer experiences.
Read more at Mother Teresa: My Saint of Darkness and Hope - Beyond Blue

ToBeLoved · Mar 11, 2017

visionary said:
Mother Teresa is not a good example, as she said herself, "[There is so much contradiction in my soul.—Such deep longing for God—so deep that it is painful—a suffering continual—and yet not wanted by God—repulsed—empty—no faith—no love—no zeal.—Souls hold no attraction—Heaven means nothing—to me it looks like an empty place—the thought of it means nothing to me and yet this torturing longing for God.—Pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything. For I am only His—so He has ever right over me. I am perfectly happy to be nobody even to God. . . . ."

Now does that sound like someone who has experienced the peace that passes all understanding. I am not saying that her devotion is not admirable. I am just saying that her faith didn't give her the peace every born again believer experiences.
Read more at Mother Teresa: My Saint of Darkness and Hope - Beyond Blue

Wow.

Open Heart · Mar 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Why would the exception be Moses and not Yeshua?

Why would you even think there is an exception. I would think God would tell us if their was an exception so then Moses would be in the same category as the rest.

Unless you are picking and choosing to support your own theology and not because of God at all.

Yeshua IS God, not God talking TO a man.

In all other cases God inspired indirectly, talking in visions, and dreams, or even more indirectly, just inspiring through the Holy Spirit. But Moses "saw God face to face." He actually heard the voice of God (we know this because all of Israel heard the voice too). In the case of Moses, he DID take dictation. This is why in the Torah you have the VOICE OF HASHEM saying "Speak to the children of Israel, saying..." Moses is literally hearing that voice with his ears; it wasn't Elijah's still small voice.

It's not my personal theology. It's just a thoughtful reading of the Bible. I don't know of a single Bible Scholar who says Paul heard the voice of God with his ears and took dictation.

Open Heart · Mar 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
To believe only some Christians have the Holy Spirit calls Yeshua a liar because He is the one who said He was sending the Holy Spirit to His Children.

You keep confusing what I'm saying. Please listen VERY CAREFULLY this time.

I'm not saying that there are some Christians who don't have the Holy Spirit. All Christians have the Holy Spirit.

I'm saying that Christians often confuse their own emotions, thought, and intuition for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Two different things.

The second thing is why Spirit filled Christians come to disagree on issues of doctrine, and why Sola Scriptura is not enough.

ToBeLoved · Mar 11, 2017

Open Heart said:
You keep confusing what I'm saying. Please listen VERY CAREFULLY this time.

I'm not saying that there are some Christians who don't have the Holy Spirit. All Christians have the Holy Spirit.

I'm saying that Christians often confuse their own emotions, thought, and intuition for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Two different things.

The second thing is why Spirit filled Christians come to disagree on issues of doctrine, and why Sola Scriptura is not enough.

Ok. O see what you are saying here then.

Open Heart · Mar 11, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Ok. O see what you are saying here then.

Oh, I'm so glad.

I'm sorry I wasn't as clear earlier in the conversation.

Steve Petersen · Mar 18, 2017

Adstar said:
Where two texts are in disagreement.. One is correct the other is false.. Those who are lead by the Holy Spirit will know..

No, there is a third possibility: they are both false.

Steve Petersen · Mar 18, 2017

Adstar said:
Yes many think they are.. But the important thing is those who are lead by the Holy Spirit will be lead in the correct Way... If people think they are lead by the Holy Spirit and are not then that means they are not saved and as such their POV is irrelevant to those who are lead by the Holy Spirit..

And how do you know who is lead by the HS?

visionary · Mar 18, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
And how do you know who is lead by the HS?

There are usually two or three "witnesses" within scripture to confirm or reveal the error.

CherubRam · Mar 18, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
No, there is a third possibility: they are both false.

I have not encountered any scripture where both were wrong. Do you know of any such place?

Steve Petersen · Mar 19, 2017

visionary said:
There are usually two or three "witnesses" within scripture to confirm or reveal the error.

You mean cherry-picking verses that confirm their bias.

visionary · Mar 19, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
You mean cherry-picking verses that confirm their bias.

That happens, but with confirmation via Holy Spirit, their is discernment.

ToBeLoved · Mar 20, 2017

Open Heart said:
Of course I believe the EO and Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Why have you put "non-Jew" in parenthesis? What do you do with Christians who are Jews like Peter, Paul, James, John, and ME?

What I'm trying to say is that Christians confuse their own emotions, their own thoughts, and their own intuition with the leading of the Holy Spirit. That is how Spirit Filled Christians can disagree over important doctrinal issues.

You act like Jews are in perfect agreement or something. And also the number of Christians is way, way higher and Christ is our base. In all of Christianity.

ToBeLoved · Mar 20, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
You mean cherry-picking verses that confirm their bias.

Yeah, that's right Bob. :doh:

ToBeLoved · Mar 20, 2017

Open Heart said:
Yeshua IS God, not God talking TO a man.

In all other cases God inspired indirectly, talking in visions, and dreams, or even more indirectly, just inspiring through the Holy Spirit. But Moses "saw God face to face." He actually heard the voice of God (we know this because all of Israel heard the voice too). In the case of Moses, he DID take dictation. This is why in the Torah you have the VOICE OF HASHEM saying "Speak to the children of Israel, saying..." Moses is literally hearing that voice with his ears; it wasn't Elijah's still small voice.

It's not my personal theology. It's just a thoughtful reading of the Bible. I don't know of a single Bible Scholar who says Paul heard the voice of God with his ears and took dictation.

And such good results it brought. Moses was still only a servant of God as all mankind is. We are all just servants of the Most High.

ToBeLoved · Mar 20, 2017

visionary said:
That happens, but with confirmation via Holy Spirit, their is discernment.

What do you call your theology which is questionable at best? Interesting how people love to throw stones, but Yeshua drew a line in the sand and said "Let him WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone". People need to remember all are sinners.

Taking shots at one another is just not what Yeshua taught. Yeshua said that He is bringing TWO sheep pens under His Lordship.

Open Heart · Mar 20, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
You act like Jews are in perfect agreement or something. And also the number of Christians is way, way higher and Christ is our base. In all of Christianity.

What are you talking about? What has any of this to do with anything I actually said???? For example, I didn't even mention Jews in the quote you replied to!!!!

And you never answered my two questions, so here they are again. Why have you put "non-Jew" in parenthesis? What do you do with Christians who are Jews like Peter, Paul, James, John, and ME?

What do you think about textual variants in NT?

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