How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

bottomofsandal said:

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

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Those that “accept” God’s charity (grace/mercy/Love/forgiveness) are those that have wimped out, surrendered and given up. They are just not macho enough to pay the piper: take the punishment they fully deserve. They selfishly want to have just some kind of life free from the huge burden their past sins have weighted on their conscience, although this is fully not deserved.

Other at least have a little pride (false pride) that allows them not to disturb their Father with their presence and more requests.

Romans 9:13-24 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

bottomofsandal said:

Some might feel compelled to say this withholding of grace is not fair.

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God is not obliged to give anyone grace.

As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What is amazing about this verse is not that God hates Esau, but that He loved Jacob. God is not obliged to love any single one of us. There is nothing in us, in and of ourselves, that makes us "lovable". God chooses, out the abundance of His love, to love us.

bottomofsandal said:

Did God simply never offer the grace of God to the non-elect ?

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Correct. God has the sovereign right to do with His grace as He chooses in regards to His creation.

bottomofsandal said:

Or was the grace of God offered to all men and some refused grace?

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There are different levels of God's grace. Common grace is what God is giving to mankind right now as we speak. Because every single person who has ever lived, deserves God's wrath. Yet He is withholding His wrath right now, so that the elect may come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. People are not elected to condemnation, that is the
natural state of man, because of being born into a sinful nature.

bottomofsandal said:

Also, is man's freewill powerful enough that he is able to resist God?

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No. Man's free will is limited to his or her sinful nature. If man's free will were able to resist God, that would make man sovereign and God under the control of man.

bottomofsandal said:

Paul when he was Saul was unable to resist God. God was pretty persuasive.

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Paul was not converted by mere persuasion. God radically transformed Paul's heart into a new creation. As He does with all believers in Jesus Christ.

bottomofsandal said:

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

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That's simple.

James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Humility enable man to receive God's grace.

bottomofsandal said:

Yeah, I never heard of a proud man thinking that he needed God.

A humble, broken spirit is someone God can work with.

Isaiah 57:15New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:
“I dwell in the high and holy place,
With him who has a contrite and humble spirit,
To revive the spirit of the humble,
And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

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So, is humility a requirement for salvation?

bottomofsandal said:

The only requirement is that one be a sinner.

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So God will give grace to a proud sinner.

If you look up the word 'chose' or chosen' in the NT, in relation to salvation, you will only find examples of God choosing us, not us choosing
God.
Bible search results for Chose.

Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 10:42
But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 14:7
[ Take the Lowly Place ] So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:2
until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He hadchosen,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:15
[ Matthias Chosen ] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 6:1
[ Seven Chosen to Serve ] Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists, because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they choseStephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 10:41
not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God,even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 13:17
The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago Godchose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:22
[ The Jerusalem Decree ] Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:25
it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to sendchosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:40
but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 22:14
Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 1:28
and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Corinthians 8:19
and not only that, but who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift, which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself and to show your ready mind,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Fast ] But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Peter 2:4
[ The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People ] Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Godand precious,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

bottomofsandal said:

Sure, I am a prime example!

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According to God's word, He will not give you grace if you are proud. In fact, it says God resists you. How are you saved if God resists you?

bottomofsandal said:

You are not really making sense...all men before salvation are proud.

Paul in Acts 9 sure had a lot of pride...the grace of God transformed him!

I don't recall reading where Paul humbled himself.

You must believe somehow a man can humble himself?

Why would a proud man be interested in humbling himself?

What did Jesus say about grace and humility?...nothing

Jesus did say to learn lowliness and humility from Him (Matthew 11:29)

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I guess Peter and James must have been on drugs when they wrote about God giving grace to the humble.

And, how do you know the hearts of everyone to say they are proud before salvation?

sdowney717 said:

That depends on who is Peter's audience, to whom is Peter writing?
'he is patient with you', 'you' is the beloved, who are elect according to foreknowledge that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 1.

Why would God be patiently waiting for those whom He knows will never repent, that is your the 'all' interpretation idea.
That describes the action of a God who is less than the Lord Almighty.

No, this verse fits in more with Paul's Romans 8 and 9 teaching of God predestinating those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ.
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Peter would not be including all the world into the 'us' to whom he has written these 2 letters. His letters were written to the beloved elect, those whom God foreknew would repent, so then this includes those who are reading his letter who will believe at a future date, and those who believe now.

2 Peter 3New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle

2 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Faithful
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

It is for the elect alone that Paul labors that they also will be saved, same ideas Peter teaches in that verse, Paul also teaches that only the elect will be enabled to repent and believe, it is for them that God is longsuffering, not willing that any of them perish, and they will not.

2 Timothy 2:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

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I'm aware that that is a common Calvinistic response to this verse. I disagree with that interpretation for these reasons:

1. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) reads, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'. For you, it seems that you indicated that would mean that 'he is patient with you Christians [the elect], not wanting anyone of you Christians [the elect] to perish, but everyone of you Christians [the elect] to come to repentance'.

There are contradictory elements in that understanding: (a) Not wanting the elect to perish, and (b) Wanting all Christians (the elect) to come to repentance when they already have repented. Jesus told the sinners according to Luke 13:3 (NIV): 'I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish'. Sinners are called on to repent, otherwise they will perish.

2. The Lord does not hold back from fulfilling his promise. 'As some understand slowness' is not referring to the scoffers (2 Pet 3:3) who claim that the discussion about the Lord's second coming (the Parousia) is useless as a promise (v. 4). Peter is referring to Christians who could be disturbed by the teaching of the scoffers that the Lord has delayed his return. The scoffers consider the delay is related to Jesus' not returning.

3. Instead, Paul gives the biblically correct answer: In his grace, God gives more time - whether short or long (2 Pet 3:8) - because in the purposes of God, his purpose will be fulfilled. Therefore, the delay of the Parousia is not one of slackness by the Lord but for the purpose of many more coming to repentance - the desire of God being 'that all should reach repentance'.

4. Only the Lord knows how to extend this time to allow for many more to repent (yes, they can repent or perish). It has been approx. 2,000 years of wait so far, which is nothing as time in God's eternal plan.

Of course this book of 2 Peter is written to believers, but that does not mean that its content does not apply to unbelievers. Examples include,

• 'And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep' (2 Pet 2:2-3 ESV).
  
• 'to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones' (2 Pet 2:9-10 ESV).
• 'These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved' (2 Pet 2:17 ESV).

Sincerely,
Oz

OzSpen said:

I'm aware that that is a common Calvinistic response to this verse. I disagree with that interpretation for these reasons:

1. 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) reads, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'. For you, it seems that you indicated that would mean that 'he is patient with you Christians [the elect], not wanting anyone of you Christians [the elect] to perish, but everyone of you Christians [the elect] to come to repentance'.

There are contradictory elements in that understanding: (a) Not wanting the elect to perish, and (b) Wanting all Christians (the elect) to come to repentance when they already have repented. Jesus told the sinners according to Luke 13:3 (NIV): 'I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish'. Sinners are called on to repent, otherwise they will perish.

2. The Lord does not hold back from fulfilling his promise. 'As some understand slowness' is not referring to the scoffers (2 Pet 3:3) who claim that the discussion about the Lord's second coming (the Parousia) is useless as a promise (v. 4). Peter is referring to Christians who could be disturbed by the teaching of the scoffers that the Lord has delayed his return. The scoffers consider the delay is related to Jesus' not returning.

3. Instead, Paul gives the biblically correct answer: In his grace, God gives more time - whether short or long (2 Pet 3:8) - because in the purposes of God, his purpose will be fulfilled. Therefore, the delay of the Parousia is not one of slackness by the Lord but for the purpose of many more coming to repentance - the desire of God being 'that all should reach repentance'.

4. Only the Lord knows how to extend this time to allow for many more to repent (yes, they can repent or perish). It has been approx. 2,000 years of wait so far, which is nothing as time in God's eternal plan.

Of course this book of 2 Peter is written to believers, but that does not mean that its content does not apply to unbelievers. Examples include,

• 'And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep' (2 Pet 2:2-3 ESV).
  
• 'to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones' (2 Pet 2:9-10 ESV).
• 'These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved' (2 Pet 2:17 ESV).

Sincerely,
Oz

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You mention content not related to believers is of course true, yet that content points to their destruction not to their salvation. And the letter was not written to them, but only to the elect, that is, those who will be saved.
I brought in Paul saying it is for the elect that He labors, showing that election to be of the saved occurs before the person's salvation.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In that Paul says 'that they also may obtain the salvation', means they don't yet have it. Yet they are elect.
I got the sense your saying a person is saved and therefore elect. When scripturally, it is a person is elect and so then will be saved.
Election precedes salvation, only the elect obtain salvation, not destruction. The rest are blinded.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

bottomofsandal said:

Sure, I am a prime example!

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Accepting pure charity requires humility, but it is a humility all mature adults will have sometime in their life, because this world and our personal decisions will bring us to a humbling situation (bring us to our senses like the prodigal son). The question is will we decide to humbly accept God's charity or not.

sdowney717 said:

You mention content not related to believers is of course true, yet that content points to their destruction not to their salvation. And the letter was not written to them, but only to the elect, that is, those who will be saved.
I brought in Paul saying it is for the elect that He labors, showing that election to be of the saved occurs before the person's salvation.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

In that Paul says 'that they also may obtain the salvation', means they don't yet have it. Yet they are elect.
I got the sense your saying a person is saved and therefore elect. When scripturally, it is a person is elect and so then will be saved.
Election precedes salvation, only the elect obtain salvation, not destruction. The rest are blinded.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

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SD,

Your reply to me is a red herring logical fallacy where you did not deal with the content of what I wrote about 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV).

You committed the red herring because I was discussing 2 Peter 3:9 and its meaning. That was the topic I was pursuing.

What did you do? You introduced another topic involving 2 Tim 2:10 and Rom 11:7-8. You did this with the hope that I would see this as related to 2 Peter 3:9. The fact is that the 2 passages you introduced were irrelevant to the topic I was discussing.

Therefore, you abandoned my topic relating to 2 Peter 3:9.

What you did was engage in erroneous reasoning because you changed the topic. This does not count as providing evidence against the exposition I provided on 2 Pet 3:9.

We cannot have a responsible, logical conversation when you engage in this kind of fallacious logic.

Oz

bottomofsandal said:

Hmmm...so who invented "choosing Christ" we hear at invitations, revivals, and certain cable TV channels?

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Scripturally Christ chooses us first, then we in our limited human understanding respond back by choosing Christ.
So those that would respond to an alter call have already had the Holy Spirit at work inside of them, changing their hearts and minds.
Consider no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Having Christ shining out from us, means God has chosen to reveal His Son in us. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
We only love God or others because God loved us first.