Rapture timing

Revealing Times · Jun 17, 2016

To Psalm 3704....My reply got folded up into your reply so I edited it.

The Old English can be confusing. Basically if all people were to look at the Wedding Pattern, two Brides Rachel and Leah, and the way this ties in to both Israel and the Churches future, I think it would make God's future plans much clearer.

Give this a look brother. I think if everyone studied this short article everything would come into focus. God Bless

GREAT POST...........By the way.

http://www.luke810.com/wedpatt.htm

JLB777 · Jun 17, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 Good News Translation (GNT)

8 with a flaming fire, to punish those who reject God and who do not obey the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might, 10 when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you. 11 That is why we always pray for you. We ask our God to make you worthy of the life he has called you to live. May he fulfill by his power all your desire for goodness and complete your work of faith. 12 In this way the name of our Lord Jesus will receive glory from you, and you from him, by the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to be with him: I beg you, my friends, 2 not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thes%201%3A8-2%3A3&version=NKJV;GNT

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) On destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (CJB) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TMB) Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/2-3-compare.html

You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.

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The Day of the Lord is the second coming of Christ our Lord.

It is the Day He comes to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, and destroy the wicked.

The coming of the Lord is the Day of Christ, is the Day of the Lord.

The pretrib rapture is no where to be found in scripture at all, and is the fantasy of false teachers.

JLB

Psalm3704 · Jun 18, 2016

Revealing Times said:
To Psalm 3704....My reply got folded up into your reply so I edited it.

The Old English can be confusing. Basically if all people were to look at the Wedding Pattern, two Brides Rachel and Leah, and the way this ties in to both Israel and the Churches future, I think it would make God's future plans much clearer.

Give this a look brother. I think if everyone studied this short article everything would come into focus. God Bless

GREAT POST...........By the way.

http://www.luke810.com/wedpatt.htm

Thanks for the link Revealing Times. I noticed you're new here so welcome to the Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum. Just a little heads up about this place. You'll need thick skin to survive here because this forum is divided as there are a lot of conflicting views between Post-Tribbers, Preterists and Pre-Tribbers. One thing I've noticed about this place is the people here will test the new folks to see what they're made of. Most of the people doing this are the post-tribbers and some of the preterists. Your knowledge of prophecy and patience is what will help you most in here.

One thing I highly recommend is to get to know the people here. Some are highly knowledgeable and probably have the gift of prophecy to their advantage, Biblewriter is probably one of them. He's a good guy and a great source of information, and I commend him for his love of the truth. He's getting a lot of flak from those against a pre-trib rapture on this thread for defending the truth (what's being said in the bible), but he doesn't get persuaded to follow what others tell him and continue to hold onto what the bible say over what others are teaching in here, something I know Christ will reward him someday when we stand before the Bema Seat. So I'm just giving you the heads up as I've noticed a couple of post-tribbers are already engaging with you. I think you'll do fine in here as you seem to have some bit of know about prophecy, which is always a good thing.

.

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Psalm3704 · Jun 18, 2016

JLB777 said:
The pretrib rapture is no where to be found in scripture at all, and is the fantasy of false teachers.

Is this what you're looking for?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

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Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

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Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

.

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2016

vinsight4u said in post 305:

Where do you think the second death is?

The lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

vinsight4u said in post 305:

Do you think this is in Edom/Idumea as in the area around the Dead Sea? Isaiah 34 . . .

Instead of Isaiah 34 referring to a particular area of land, Edom/Idumea there could represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, like how Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22).

vinsight4u said in post 305:

I'm not sure if the Dead Sea could still exist or not, or becomes part of the lake of fire. What do you think?

New Jerusalem is 1,500 miles wide (Revelation 21:16). So if it lands (Revelation 21:2-3) centered on where the current Jerusalem is, it would cover over the area of the Dead Sea.

vinsight4u said in post 305:

At the end of Isaiah 66 it refers to all flesh coming to look at the carcases of the transgressors/men. They will be abhorred at the sight of it. Do you think this is looking at men in the lake of fire?

Yes.

vinsight4u said in post 305:

Do you think God will have this area to warn men and angels to never sin against Him again?

Yes. And also to help them to forever realize how great his mercy is toward them for their past sins.

That is, God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known to both humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

*******

vinsight4u said in post 306:

So you see Ezekiel 39 as the final Gog war as in Rev. 20?

Yes, along with Ezekiel 38.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Why call the fowls to eat, if the men or their parts only were to be buried?

Birds don't eat every part of bodies.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

What are the fowls going to eat? It mentions horses, but also all men of war. chariots/What do birds eat from that? riders in the chariots?

Yes, and their horses.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Are these from the Magog group?

Yes, and all other nations around the world (Revelation 20:8a).

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Did they eat first, and then the people buried the bones?

Yes.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

The Gog war in Rev. 20 is stopped by fire from God out of heaven.

Note that both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9).

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Does Ezekiel 39:4 refer to Ezekiel 39:17?

Yes.

vinsight4u said in post 306:

Ezekiel 39 and Matthew 25 seem to link up as to when He will set His glory among the nations/heathen - time to separate the sheep and the goats people.

Matthew 25:31
"When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"
Matthew 25:32
"And before Him shall be gathered all the nations: and He shall separate..."

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

vinsight4u said in post 306:

The Jews will regather again after the Gog battle/Magog. Are they the least of the brethren that the sheep people helped?

Yes, as well as Gentile Christians (cf. Matthew 12:50, Hebrews 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

*******

vinsight4u said in post 307:

Revelation 18 shows that His people are to leave Babylon so as not to receive of her plagues. OT prophecy shows that Israel was to flee -every man from Babylon. This has never happened.

That's right (Revelation 18:4).

For believers will have to flee from all cities throughout the world, all areas with civilization. I.e., they will have to flee into wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14).

For Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

--

It is sometimes claimed that Babylon is only the U.S.

But while the corrupt aspects of the U.S. are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the 1st leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the 1st century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And 2 nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against 2 major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap 2 terrorist nuclear bombs against 2 of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the 2 cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a big nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist (who won't be from the U.S.) to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadists? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadist attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world?

vinsight4u said in post 307:

The great tribulation happens in Rev. 7 -came out of great tribulation.

Note that in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude could be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2016

Psalm3704 said in post 311:

Is this what you're looking for?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Regarding "the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), note that this refers to the same wrath as 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

For example, the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

Psalm3704 said in post 311:

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 ¶Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Here Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the church, which won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

But Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Note that there would be absolutely no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from events happening down on the earth.

Also, note that nothing forbids believers from preparing their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius) throughout the year.

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

Psalm3704 said in post 311:

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Note that this says "ye are come", not "ye will come" in a future, pre-tribulation rapture.

For this, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

--

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Note that the 2nd part of this can refer to an event which is still in our future, whereas Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).

Hebrews 12:26b-29 can refer to the same thing as 2 Peter 3:10-13.

That is, regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Luke17:37 · Jun 18, 2016

Bible2+ said:
New Jerusalem is 1,500 miles wide (Revelation 21:16). So if it lands (Revelation 21:2-3) centered on where the current Jerusalem is, it would cover over the area of the Dead Sea.

In Revelation 21:1, John saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth passed away. And there is no more sea.

New Jerusalem won't be placed on our existing earth.

Postvieww · Jun 18, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 Good News Translation (GNT)

8 with a flaming fire, to punish those who reject God and who do not obey the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might, 10 when he comes on that Day to receive glory from all his people and honor from all who believe. You too will be among them, because you have believed the message that we told you. 11 That is why we always pray for you. We ask our God to make you worthy of the life he has called you to live. May he fulfill by his power all your desire for goodness and complete your work of faith. 12 In this way the name of our Lord Jesus will receive glory from you, and you from him, by the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to be with him: I beg you, my friends, 2 not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thes%201%3A8-2%3A3&version=NKJV;GNT

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) On destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. that Day, when he comes to be glorified by his holy people and admired by all who have trusted, you will be among them, because you trusted our witness to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (CJB) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 (TMB) when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TMB) Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-10-compare.html

http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/2-3-compare.html

You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.

.

Psalm3704 said:

No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

All you have shown is but one of at least 3 different attempts on various threads by different individuals to make 2 Thess 2 say what it does not. No I do not deny the bible I deny the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture which is nowhere in scripture and definitely not in 2 Thess 2 or anywhere else in either book written to the Thessalonians!

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

Your whole house of cards argument is based on the fact you are convinced there must be two more comings of the Lord. You can't use the assumption you are right about 2 Thess 1 to prove you are right about 2 Thess 2!

2 Thess 1 actually proves you are wrong about 2 Thess 2.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You have assumed this cannot include a resurrection and catching up because of the judgment part mentioned which is for them that know not God. Read on below.

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The same passage you site to point out judgement of unbelievers also speaks of Jesus being glorified in his saints and admired by them when He comes on that day. Jesus can conduct a resurrection and catching up as well as executing judgement on the same trip, on the same day. All of these different coming of the Lord passages which are worded differently are not proof of different events no matter how many times you tell me they are.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

Verse 10 implies coming for His saints. “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe”
If the saints had been in heaven for 7 years they would not have to wait for Him to return to earth to admire Him!

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

Wrong, your attempt to make it that way is not correct for the following reasons:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The context is clearly set by this verse. Our gathering takes place at the resurrection, which is at His coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

You attempt to make “the day of Christ” something other than the coming and gathering of verse 1 which makes no grammatical or literary sense. Verse 2 in context is talking about the same day as verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In what grammatical situation would the “that day” which is not explained in verse 3 not refer back to the previous 2 verses to know what “that day” was?

You underlined “when he comes in that day” in your post, why not underline “to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe”

It appears to me you are arguing 2 Thess 1 is talking about the second coming and 1 Thess 4 is talking about your “rapture” and 2 Thess 2 is jumping back to the second coming. Not working, 1 coming, one resurrection and the only coming Paul writes about in both books happens after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin!

You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.

As I said earlier I can remember at least 3 different approaches by pre-tribbers to nullify what 2 Thess 2:3 says, of which the one you present here is 1, all 3 claim to have the truth and you make the above statement??????

The fact is 2 Thess 2:1-8 destroys the pre-trib doctrine that is why so many desperate attempts have been made to interpret it out of God’s Holy word.

Again for the record, the different wording in the coming of the Lord passages does not prove multiple comings they all harmonize perfectly with no contradictions. Some details are just left out of some passages. Some focus on His return and judgments He hands out some focus on our gathering. Proof of this is found in 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 both do not agree on all details but no one from the pre-trib camp will argue they are not the same event. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical!

1 More coming of Christ, 1 more resurrection of the righteous dead in the future found in scripture.

Revealing Times · Jun 18, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
Thanks for the link Revealing Times. I noticed you're new here so welcome to the Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum. Just a little heads up about this place. You'll need thick skin to survive here because this forum is divided as there are a lot of conflicting views between Post-Tribbers, Preterists and Pre-Tribbers. One thing I've noticed about this place is the people here will test the new folks to see what they're made of. Most of the people doing this are the post-tribbers and some of the preterists. Your knowledge of prophecy and patience is what will help you most in here.

One thing I highly recommend is to get to know the people here. Some are highly knowledgeable and probably have the gift of prophecy to their advantage, Biblewriter is probably one of them. He's a good guy and a great source of information, and I commend him for his love of the truth. He's getting a lot of flak from those against a pre-trib rapture on this thread for defending the truth (what's being said in the bible), but he doesn't get persuaded to follow what others tell him and continue to hold onto what the bible say over what others are teaching in here, something I know Christ will reward him someday when we stand before the Bema Seat. So I'm just giving you the heads up as I've noticed a couple of post-tribbers are already engaging with you. I think you'll do fine in here as you seem to have some bit of know about prophecy, which is always a good thing.

Thank for the heads-up, but no man will deter my understandings, unless he has the Holy Spirit in him also. I listen to the Spirit of truth.

I have both evolutionists and Young Earth guys in a thread called "Is God a liar", at me a little. When I tell them I have studied the WMAP/NASA mapping of the universe and applied it to Genesis, and the first Day or "yom" (period of time) is 9.2 Billion years old, it's like, ............God Bless brother.

.

.

Bible2+ · Jun 19, 2016

Luke17:37 said in post 314:

New Jerusalem won't be placed on our existing earth.

That's right, in the sense of the existing surface of the earth. For while the planet itself will continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) can refer to a new surface for the earth.

Psalm3704 · Jun 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
Psalm3704 said:

No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

All you have shown is but one of at least 3 different attempts on various threads by different individuals to make 2 Thess 2 say what it does not. No I do not deny the bible I deny the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture which is nowhere in scripture and definitely not in 2 Thess 2 or anywhere else in either book written to the Thessalonians!

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

Your whole house of cards argument is based on the fact you are convinced there must be two more comings of the Lord. You can't use the assumption you are right about 2 Thess 1 to prove you are right about 2 Thess 2!

2 Thess 1 actually proves you are wrong about 2 Thess 2.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You have assumed this cannot include a resurrection and catching up because of the judgment part mentioned which is for them that know not God. Read on below.

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The same passage you site to point out judgement of unbelievers also speaks of Jesus being glorified in his saints and admired by them when He comes on that day. Jesus can conduct a resurrection and catching up as well as executing judgement on the same trip, on the same day. All of these different coming of the Lord passages which are worded differently are not proof of different events no matter how many times you tell me they are.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

Verse 10 implies coming for His saints. “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe”
If the saints had been in heaven for 7 years they would not have to wait for Him to return to earth to admire Him!

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

Wrong, your attempt to make it that way is not correct for the following reasons:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The context is clearly set by this verse. Our gathering takes place at the resurrection, which is at His coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

You attempt to make “the day of Christ” something other than the coming and gathering of verse 1 which makes no grammatical or literary sense. Verse 2 in context is talking about the same day as verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In what grammatical situation would the “that day” which is not explained in verse 3 not refer back to the previous 2 verses to know what “that day” was?

You underlined “when he comes in that day” in your post, why not underline “to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe”

It appears to me you are arguing 2 Thess 1 is talking about the second coming and 1 Thess 4 is talking about your “rapture” and 2 Thess 2 is jumping back to the second coming. Not working, 1 coming, one resurrection and the only coming Paul writes about in both books happens after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin!

You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.

As I said earlier I can remember at least 3 different approaches by pre-tribbers to nullify what 2 Thess 2:3 says, of which the one you present here is 1, all 3 claim to have the truth and you make the above statement??????

The fact is 2 Thess 2:1-8 destroys the pre-trib doctrine that is why so many desperate attempts have been made to interpret it out of God’s Holy word.

Again for the record, the different wording in the coming of the Lord passages does not prove multiple comings they all harmonize perfectly with no contradictions. Some details are just left out of some passages. Some focus on His return and judgments He hands out some focus on our gathering. Proof of this is found in 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 both do not agree on all details but no one from the pre-trib camp will argue they are not the same event. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical!

1 More coming of Christ, 1 more resurrection of the righteous dead in the future found in scripture.

Do you have any proof at all, anything at all from the bible that can support your nonsense? The fact is, your arguments goes over the cliff falling flat on it's face when examined under scrutiny as Paul's writings pretty much destroyed your theory in chapter 1, verses 8-10. Paul's definition of that day is the day of Christ's return in wrath and vengeance: 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. The fact is, you just can't make it work. Let's put it this way, what you say doesn't constitute as fact simply because you claim otherwise.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

*************************************

Postvieww said:
All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

Verse 10 implies coming for His saints. “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe”
If the saints had been in heaven for 7 years they would not have to wait for Him to return to earth to admire Him!

More knucklehead eschatology. Glorified by His saints does not mean He returns with His saints. It's referring to "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39.

Do you realize if He comes with His saints as you claimed when He returns in wrath and vengeance to fight the a/c in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, this completely refutes, a post-tribulation rapture?

A post-trib rapture happens after the tribulation, not during the tribulation when Christ comes to fight the a/c and judges the rest of the world oh wise guy. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 happens during the tribulation, not after.

You certainly have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth. Nice work debunking yourself.

By the way, wrong saints too.

Who was He referring to when He said "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:39?

Need a hint? It's not the church in heaven.

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Psalm3704 · Jun 19, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Regarding "the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), note that this refers to the same wrath as 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

For example, the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 ¶Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Here Isaiah 26:19 is referring to the resurrection of the church, which won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

But Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Note that there would be absolutely no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from events happening down on the earth.

Also, note that nothing forbids believers from preparing their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius) throughout the year.

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Note that this says "ye are come", not "ye will come" in a future, pre-tribulation rapture.

For this, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

--

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Note that the 2nd part of this can refer to an event which is still in our future, whereas Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).

Hebrews 12:26b-29 can refer to the same thing as 2 Peter 3:10-13.

That is, regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Bible2, read this carefully and reevaluate yourself.

Matthew 7:15-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

He's talking about Christians giving false testimonies about prophecies. Jesus told us we will know the false prophets and can easily spot them by their fruits. These Christians also prophesied and thought they were doing what they believe to be righteous. But Christ tells them depart from Me. And eventually they are sent to hell (cut down and thrown into the fire).

Do you realized you're just exposing yourself as a Matthew 7 type Christian to everyone reading your thread? 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 and Hebrews 12:22-29 are very explicit scriptures. They're not refutable as they clearly indicate 1) a resurrection and deliverance before the tribulation, 2) a post-trib rapture is impossible.

The only thing anyone can do is deny what those scriptures clearly stated (which will get themselves into much trouble during the tribulation), and give their own reasoning, a Matthew 7 rebuttal.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

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Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

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Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

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Psalm3704 · Jun 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
Psalm3704 said:

No, this is not his opinion. It's clearly stated in the bible exactly as he said. I've even shown you what "that Day" is myself and still you continue to deny the bible.

All you have shown is but one of at least 3 different attempts on various threads by different individuals to make 2 Thess 2 say what it does not. No I do not deny the bible I deny the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture which is nowhere in scripture and definitely not in 2 Thess 2 or anywhere else in either book written to the Thessalonians!

That Day spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to Christ's coming in judgement mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.

Your whole house of cards argument is based on the fact you are convinced there must be two more comings of the Lord. You can't use the assumption you are right about 2 Thess 1 to prove you are right about 2 Thess 2!

2 Thess 1 actually proves you are wrong about 2 Thess 2.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You have assumed this cannot include a resurrection and catching up because of the judgment part mentioned which is for them that know not God. Read on below.

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The same passage you site to point out judgement of unbelievers also speaks of Jesus being glorified in his saints and admired by them when He comes on that day. Jesus can conduct a resurrection and catching up as well as executing judgement on the same trip, on the same day. All of these different coming of the Lord passages which are worded differently are not proof of different events no matter how many times you tell me they are.

All translations in the links below say "that day" in 2 Thessalonians 1:10, some translations like the ones below below even used an upper case "D" in "that Day" specifically implying that day as the day Christ comes in vengeance in flaming fire to judge the world with wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10).

Verse 10 implies coming for His saints. “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe”
If the saints had been in heaven for 7 years they would not have to wait for Him to return to earth to admire Him!

That day in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is clearly not the rapture. Paul spoke of the rapture in the book of 1st Thessalonians. The book of 2nd Thessalonians is about the second coming. Two books, His coming is clearly in two stages.

Wrong, your attempt to make it that way is not correct for the following reasons:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The context is clearly set by this verse. Our gathering takes place at the resurrection, which is at His coming.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

You attempt to make “the day of Christ” something other than the coming and gathering of verse 1 which makes no grammatical or literary sense. Verse 2 in context is talking about the same day as verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In what grammatical situation would the “that day” which is not explained in verse 3 not refer back to the previous 2 verses to know what “that day” was?

You underlined “when he comes in that day” in your post, why not underline “to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe”

It appears to me you are arguing 2 Thess 1 is talking about the second coming and 1 Thess 4 is talking about your “rapture” and 2 Thess 2 is jumping back to the second coming. Not working, 1 coming, one resurrection and the only coming Paul writes about in both books happens after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin!

You people need to stop falsely using this scripture to promote a post-trib rapture.

As I said earlier I can remember at least 3 different approaches by pre-tribbers to nullify what 2 Thess 2:3 says, of which the one you present here is 1, all 3 claim to have the truth and you make the above statement??????

The fact is 2 Thess 2:1-8 destroys the pre-trib doctrine that is why so many desperate attempts have been made to interpret it out of God’s Holy word.

Again for the record, the different wording in the coming of the Lord passages does not prove multiple comings they all harmonize perfectly with no contradictions. Some details are just left out of some passages. Some focus on His return and judgments He hands out some focus on our gathering. Proof of this is found in 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 both do not agree on all details but no one from the pre-trib camp will argue they are not the same event. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical!

1 More coming of Christ, 1 more resurrection of the righteous dead in the future found in scripture.

Watch this video and put on your thinking cap for a minute.

Post-tribbers have been using Matthew 24:13 to mislead Christians for decades.

If Christians are suppose to go through the tribulation and endure God's wrath to the end in order to be saved, how will those Christians who have already died the last 2000 years be saved since they cannot go through the tribulation?

Do you post-tribbers (not necessarily you) not understand Jesus was telling us to resist satan's temptation till the day we die, this is what endure to the end means, not endure the wrath of God.

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Rapture timing

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And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

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Matthew 4:4

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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