What should Christian apologists say?

Archaeopteryx

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Rather, I think that Lewis and Feser--former atheists--are making points about atheism rather than atheists. There are many different kinds of atheists. Some will remain in that camp and some will not.
Yes, they are assuming that it is a dogma, much like the dogmas they adhere to.
I'd say it is enough to glean whether they are open to learning on this forum. Combativeness leads to closed-mindedness, regardless of the cause (which could be legitimate or illegitimate).

This means that the apologist who loses his cool and gets involved in personal battles has lost sight of truth, even if there was genuine provocation.
I'm not so sure about that. I've met certain Christian apologists (whose names shall remain "anonymous") who present amiably and pretend to be interested in philosophical discourse, but who later reveal that they are closed-minded. They aren't hostile though.
 
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Chris B

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I've met certain Christian apologists (whose names shall remain "anonymous") who present amiably and pretend to be interested in philosophical discourse, but who later reveal that they are closed-minded. They are rarely hostile though.

Yes. What should apologists say? I suggest they should say they are offering equality of respect.
Wishing me to take their viewpoints seriously, to the point of considering adopting them for my own, very rarely do I find any willingness to offer the reverse courtesy (I have met honourable exceptions)
And yet they have not the slightest reason to think I have put any less time or effort or thought into arriving at my world-view than they have in theirs.
It's actually an implied insult, but many so not spot this.
 
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Grizzly

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If I were a Christian Apologist, I think I would start by understanding why a person is an atheist. There are many reasons one might lack a belief in a God, and I would think that if I were interested in convincing them of the truth of my religion, I would need to understand why they don't believe. Were they raised an atheist and had little exposure to theism? Were they once believers but left? Did they leave because of emotional reasons? Did they reason their way out of the faith? All important things to learn when engaging in apologetics.
 
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zippy2006

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I'm not so sure about that. I've met certain Christian apologists (whose names shall remain "anonymous") who present amiably and pretend to be interested in philosophical discourse, but who later reveal that they are closed-minded. They aren't hostile though.

You're committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent. I said that combativeness implies closed-mindedness. This doesn't mean that everyone who is closed-minded is combative.
 
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muichimotsu

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You're committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent. I said that combativeness implies closed-mindedness. This doesn't mean that everyone who is closed-minded is combative.
Not sure how combativeness necessarily follows to close mindedness. Refusal to engage could just easily entail the same pattern of resistance to change
 
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zippy2006

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Not sure how combativeness necessarily follows to close mindedness. Refusal to engage could just easily entail the same pattern of resistance to change

Did you read the post you responded to? You are also committing the fallacy.

I said that combativeness--understood in the way explained above--leads to closed-mindedness. That doesn't mean that refusal to engage, or any other number of things, don't also lead to closed-mindedness.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You're committing the fallacy of affirming the consequent. I said that combativeness implies closed-mindedness. This doesn't mean that everyone who is closed-minded is combative.
Or that everyone who is combative is closed-minded, for as I said before, people can be combative for reasons wholly apart from their openness. It's not a pathognomic sign of being closed-minded; the specificity is too low.
 
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zippy2006

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Or that everyone who is combative is closed-minded, for as I said before, people can be combative for reasons wholly apart from their openness. It's not a pathognomic sign of being closed-minded; the specificity is too low.

Again, everyone who is combative is closed-minded, and that doesn't contradict the fact that "people can be combative for reasons wholly apart from their openness (sic)."

P = Person x is combative
Q = Person x is closed-minded

P -> Q

Note also that I am making a causal relation, not a correlation. It may be that closed-minded people are more likely to become combative, but I've not argued that here.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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What strikes me is that the majority of the points were not syllogistic arguments at all. For example, "Good Literature and Reasonable Writing." So when you say, "I don't agree with that reasoning," I am left wondering whether you have experienced good (Christian) literature and reasonable writing and have found it unpersuasive, or whether you simply haven't experienced such literature and reasonable writing. Since good literature and reasonable writing are persuasive by definition, I assume it's the latter.

Lewis' quote from Surprised by Joy is instructive:

"In reading Chesterton, as in reading MacDonald, I did not know what I was letting myself in for… A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading."
I often wonder about Lewis' atheism. In Mere Christianity, he states:
C.S. Lewis said:
Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too- for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist-in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless- I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality namely my idea of justice-was full of sense.

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
If Lewis expected atheism to provide an account for meaning, morality, and the motions of the planets, then he was always destined to be disappointed. As a response to a singular question (the existence of deities), atheism isn't equipped to provide any of that; it isn't a "worldview" on meaning, morality, or anything else. Consequently, Lewis was only half-right. Atheism is simple, but not "too simple."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Again, everyone who is combative is closed-minded, and that doesn't contradict the fact that "people can be combative for reasons wholly apart from their openness (sic)."

P = Person x is combative
Q = Person x is closed-minded

P -> Q

Note also that I am making a causal relation, not a correlation. It may be that closed-minded people are more likely to become combative, but I've not argued that here.
Person x is combative. Why? Potential explanations: (1) Closed-mindedness, (2) Previous bad experience in dialogue with atheists, (3) Trolling, (4) ... and so on. Note that these explanations aren't mutually exclusive, but that (1) is not the only explanation possible for combative behaviour. In fact, in my experience on here, it is most often (2) or (3).
 
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zippy2006

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I often wonder about Lewis' atheism. In Mere Christianity, he states:

If Lewis expected atheism to provide an account for meaning, morality, and the motions of the planets, then he was always destined to be disappointed. As a response to a singular question (the existence of deities), atheism isn't equipped to provide any of that; it isn't a "worldview" on meaning, morality, or anything else. Consequently, Lewis was only half-right. Atheism is simple, but not "too simple."

I think you can separate out two points there (although they converge with a deepened understanding of God and justice). First, if morality is subjective then arguing against the existence of God on the basis of (objective) evil is nonsensical.

The second regards this quote:

C.S. Lewis said:
Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

The unspoken premise is that for the atheist the universe has no meaning, or should have no meaning. In Lewis' time this was easier to see, for Feuerbach and Sartre make Dawkins and Hitchens look like children. :) Yet the very claim of meaninglessness assumes a standard of meaning that is failing to be met, and therefore at least within the standard there exists meaning. If it were truly meaningless then meaninglessness could not be deciphered, as Lewis so eloquently points out.

Part of the problem here is the truncated notion of atheism in our own day (which necessarily follows the truncated understanding of God). What was once clearly seen as an implication of atheism--even by the brightest atheists themselves--is no longer seen. Curiously, the article that Frumious cited about Negative and Positive Atheism notes that the famous Catholic philosopher, Maritain, used these terms in a different context long before Flew. His French context is bound up not only with the more rigorous philosophical atheism of old, but also in social and political theories springing from that philosophical foundation.
 
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zippy2006

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Person x is combative. Why? Potential explanations: (1) Closed-mindedness, (2) Previous bad experience in dialogue with atheists, (3) Trolling, (4) ... and so on. Note that these explanations aren't mutually exclusive, but that (1) is not the only explanation possible for combative behaviour. In fact, in my experience on here, it is most often (2) or (3).

Again, I have not attempted to explain why they are combative at all. I am only saying that if they are combative, then they are closed-minded. A man imprisoned in a battle isn't thinking as clearly as a free man.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I think you can separate out two points there (although they converge with a deepened understanding of God and justice). First, if morality is subjective then arguing against the existence of God on the basis of (objective) evil is nonsensical.
In other words, the moral argument, more or less. Lewis assumes that, "on atheism," there can be no "objective moral duties." My friend (former Catholic, now Baptist) bought me a copy of Mere Christianity for my birthday two years back. I was struck by how the points Lewis raised closely paralleled the apologetic arguments I would see played out on this very forum. The only difference was that Lewis wrote well, and even though he never articulated his arguments precisely, they were nevertheless clear to the reader.
The unspoken premise is that for the atheist the universe has no meaning, or should have no meaning.
Exactly. Lewis has equated atheism with nihilism.
In Lewis' time this was easier to see, for Feuerbach and Sartre make Dawkins and Hitchens look like children. :) Yet the very claim of meaninglessness assumes a standard of meaning that is failing to be met, and therefore at least within the standard there exists meaning. If it were truly meaningless then meaninglessness could not be deciphered, as Lewis so eloquently points out.
None of which bears any relation to atheism, which is not equivalent to nihilism, even though Lewis treats it as such.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Again, I have not attempted to explain why they are combative at all. I am only saying that if they are combative, then they are closed-minded. A man imprisoned in a battle isn't thinking as clearly as a free man.
Perhaps I'm trying to examine it too scientifically. If someone is combative, I want to know why, rather than jumping straight to (1) which, in my experience, is often only a partial explanation at best. But the metaphor is apt, so I see what you mean. :) Being combative, they cannot be in a state of open-mindedness as they are unlikely to be receptive to alternative ways of thinking about the matter at hand.
 
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zippy2006

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Perhaps I'm trying to examine it too scientifically. If someone is combative, I want to know why, rather than jumping straight to (1) which, in my experience, is often only a partial explanation at best. But the metaphor is apt, so I see what you mean. :) Being combative, they cannot be in a state of open-mindedness as they are unlikely to be receptive to alternative ways of thinking about the matter at hand.

Yes, exactly. Since many things cause the effect of combativeness, inquiry into that question will not produce such a clear result.

In other words, the moral argument, more or less. Lewis assumes that, "on atheism," there can be no "objective moral duties." My friend (former Catholic, now Baptist) bought me a copy of Mere Christianity for my birthday two years back. I was struck by how the points Lewis raised closely paralleled the apologetic arguments I would see played out on this very forum. The only difference was that Lewis wrote well, and even though he never articulated his arguments precisely, they were nevertheless clear to the reader.

Lewis may well think that, but in the quote you gave he is just noting the atheist's inability to consistently argue against God on the basis of justice. One alternative--which Lewis notes--is that the atheist could simply drop his objective notion of justice along with his argument against God on that basis.

Exactly. Lewis has equated atheism with nihilism.

They go hand in hand once you understand what "God" means. Modern 'atheism' isn't contrary to God, it is contrary to a cheap caricature of God. Yet once upon a time there was an atheism that was truly contrary to God.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Lewis may well think that, but in the quote you gave he is just noting the atheist's inability to consistently argue against God on the basis of justice. One alternative--which Lewis notes--is that the atheist could simply drop his objective notion of justice along with his argument against God on that basis.
That's assuming that the atheist can only be a moral realist if he is a theist or, in other words, that atheism somehow precludes moral realism.
They go hand in hand once you understand what "God" means.
You mean once you assume that everything must be imbued with theological significance or else it has no significance at all. Lewis apparently held this notion.
Modern 'atheism' isn't contrary to God, it is contrary to a cheap caricature of God. Yet once upon a time there was an atheism that was truly contrary to God.
I think you're describing what might best be characterised as anti-theism.
 
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Chris B

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In other words, the moral argument, more or less. Lewis assumes that, "on atheism," there can be no "objective moral duties."

He changes his position in later works, (I believe)
Certainly with The Abolition of Man and its appendix he is arguing a case for morality not requiring a religion or a deity to underpin its authority, but that stands independent of everything but human nature. This comes out neutral to atheism and theism, except for theists who hold morality must have a divine authority as foundation.

For the theist that morality will have been "planted in our bones" at humanity's creation.
For the atheist it will have been shaped by evolutionary pressure, selected by what works to make a functioning community.
(Kill your neighbour at the first opportunity and steal what he has doesn't actually work in the long run.)
 
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juvenissun

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So today, I look back and always reevaluate. Sometimes I think I might have some evidence in that mess somewhere. :)

Re-evaluation is a good thing to do. I re-evaluate Christianity for 30 years and then fully accepted it.
 
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