No one is "nasty." I just prefer discussing with men since that generally can leave emotions out of their arguments, unlike most women.
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Differences Between Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath
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Hi there ladylove,
It's okay I was teasing a little anyway.
We are supposed to laugh since God seems to have created us this way.
I was thinking about how caught up we can get in this discussion business, expressing our views and feeling challenged when someone questions them. Perhaps we become too attached and identify ourselves with our views.
I have a priest friend who is a Jesuit. He teaches in a Jesuit school in Pakistan. The school has been in existence for over 150 years, and during that time has not had one convert.
I thought initially that this was a failing but my friend tells me that what they are doing is about spreading the word of God, teaching people true christian values and building God's kingdom.
This was the key, he is more a Kingdom person than a Church one.
Just a point to ponder.
Have a good day
David
It's okay I was teasing a little anyway.
We are supposed to laugh since God seems to have created us this way.
I was thinking about how caught up we can get in this discussion business, expressing our views and feeling challenged when someone questions them. Perhaps we become too attached and identify ourselves with our views.
I have a priest friend who is a Jesuit. He teaches in a Jesuit school in Pakistan. The school has been in existence for over 150 years, and during that time has not had one convert.
I thought initially that this was a failing but my friend tells me that what they are doing is about spreading the word of God, teaching people true christian values and building God's kingdom.
This was the key, he is more a Kingdom person than a Church one.
Just a point to ponder.
Have a good day
David
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Rize
Well-Known Member
Stumpsitting101 (btw, I tend to quote/paraphrase in bold)
I suppose I didn't make the encounter with the universalist in October clear enough. I completely stopped exchanging emails with her by early December. It was a few weeks ago, on this board, when I saw someone post a link to a universalist article (the first one in my signature). So I figured I'd take a look at it to see if this one could actually put up a decent fight. To my surprise, they did. So I started looking for more information and I found quite a bit. And then... well, here we are now. I feel like I found the pearl of great price
Just remember, though God loves the world, He is at the same time in Covenant with those in Christ, not the world at large. Those in Covenant have many benefits which the world at large can not obtain outside their accepting Jesus' Lordship before their "first" death. Salvation, in the "Age without End" is one of those benefits.
Can you demonstrate that one must enter into this covenant before death? Also, can you demonstrate that the age to come is an age without end (rather than one age followed by an infinite number of ages). Though technically, you can have ages within ages, so the Biblical "age" terminology isn't easily nailed down.
Concerning Luke 16:22-31
Note the inverse hyperbole of verse 24 (a person burning in fire wants a drop of water; it seems to me that a person who was truly burning in a fire would be in such agony that they could not form a coherent sentence). I don't take this to be a Rich Man literally burning in flames because of that (among other reasons). Though, I will grant that the Rich Man could very well be a specific individual who lived and did/is suffering whatever the actual torments of Hades are.
How do you get that that portion of Hades is Gehenna? Other than similar imagery of course. Gehenna is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ge Hinnom, better known as the Valley of Hinnom. It has a sordid OT history which you may be familiar with. Being located on one side of Jerusalem and full of burning refuse and worms, it would have signified to those Jews hearing about it, a disgraceful death. And perhaps something more. I wouldn't be so quick to tie Gehenna to Hades though.
Regarding the "ages of ages". Paul speaks of coming ages in the book of Ephesians (Eph 2:7-8), so I wouldn't change the literal reading, ages of ages, into age of ages. By the way, that rendering "world without end" in Ephesians 3:21 is extremely poor. It is literally "Unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen." I strongly recommend against reading the KJV in serious Bible study.
In regard to 2 Corinthians 6:2. Would you agree that if I said, "go get me a ball" vs. "go get me the ball", I would be talking about two entirely different things? The first could include the second, but the second is specific and definite. As you said of the time of salvation. Unfortunately, this is, again, based on the faulty KJV. It says literally: "For he saith-- In an approved season have I hearkened unto thee, And in a day of salvation have I succoured thee; Lo! now a well-approved season, Lo! now a day of salvation:". This is why I don't read the KJV. By the way, all of that is a quote from Isaiash 49:8.
If you can spend a bit of money, why not look on Amazon.com for a Rotherham's Emphasized Bible. You can also access many translations at http://www.biblegateway.com Be sure to become familiar with the advanced search features. Also, http://www.blueletterbible.org is a great for access to the Greek/Hebrew (though their lexicon only seems to outline Biblical (KJV) usage rather than giving a careful definition of the actual word).
I suppose I didn't make the encounter with the universalist in October clear enough. I completely stopped exchanging emails with her by early December. It was a few weeks ago, on this board, when I saw someone post a link to a universalist article (the first one in my signature). So I figured I'd take a look at it to see if this one could actually put up a decent fight. To my surprise, they did. So I started looking for more information and I found quite a bit. And then... well, here we are now. I feel like I found the pearl of great price
Just remember, though God loves the world, He is at the same time in Covenant with those in Christ, not the world at large. Those in Covenant have many benefits which the world at large can not obtain outside their accepting Jesus' Lordship before their "first" death. Salvation, in the "Age without End" is one of those benefits.
Can you demonstrate that one must enter into this covenant before death? Also, can you demonstrate that the age to come is an age without end (rather than one age followed by an infinite number of ages). Though technically, you can have ages within ages, so the Biblical "age" terminology isn't easily nailed down.
Concerning Luke 16:22-31
Note the inverse hyperbole of verse 24 (a person burning in fire wants a drop of water; it seems to me that a person who was truly burning in a fire would be in such agony that they could not form a coherent sentence). I don't take this to be a Rich Man literally burning in flames because of that (among other reasons). Though, I will grant that the Rich Man could very well be a specific individual who lived and did/is suffering whatever the actual torments of Hades are.
How do you get that that portion of Hades is Gehenna? Other than similar imagery of course. Gehenna is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ge Hinnom, better known as the Valley of Hinnom. It has a sordid OT history which you may be familiar with. Being located on one side of Jerusalem and full of burning refuse and worms, it would have signified to those Jews hearing about it, a disgraceful death. And perhaps something more. I wouldn't be so quick to tie Gehenna to Hades though.
Regarding the "ages of ages". Paul speaks of coming ages in the book of Ephesians (Eph 2:7-8), so I wouldn't change the literal reading, ages of ages, into age of ages. By the way, that rendering "world without end" in Ephesians 3:21 is extremely poor. It is literally "Unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen." I strongly recommend against reading the KJV in serious Bible study.
In regard to 2 Corinthians 6:2. Would you agree that if I said, "go get me a ball" vs. "go get me the ball", I would be talking about two entirely different things? The first could include the second, but the second is specific and definite. As you said of the time of salvation. Unfortunately, this is, again, based on the faulty KJV. It says literally: "For he saith-- In an approved season have I hearkened unto thee, And in a day of salvation have I succoured thee; Lo! now a well-approved season, Lo! now a day of salvation:". This is why I don't read the KJV. By the way, all of that is a quote from Isaiash 49:8.
If you can spend a bit of money, why not look on Amazon.com for a Rotherham's Emphasized Bible. You can also access many translations at http://www.biblegateway.com Be sure to become familiar with the advanced search features. Also, http://www.blueletterbible.org is a great for access to the Greek/Hebrew (though their lexicon only seems to outline Biblical (KJV) usage rather than giving a careful definition of the actual word).
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Now Rize, I was not insulting anyone. Gracie just needs reading glasses and an open mind to this section, it is no crime.
I am not here to win a popularity poll.
This section is debateable and when is non-essential Christian doctrine. It is no reason to divide. Some posters are better at debate than others. That is obvioius.
I am not here to win a popularity poll.
This section is debateable and when is non-essential Christian doctrine. It is no reason to divide. Some posters are better at debate than others. That is obvioius.
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That is correct.
I am not in the heart changing business, too big of a job. I just throw those seeds...
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RIZE:
2 Cor 6:2
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) KJV
I printed in bold the area where I at, not trying to imply any harshness.
The words: "The, Is The (used twice)" are not included in the Nestle nor the Textus Receptus manuscripts. These words were add by the translators in an attempt to bring out a better meaning. Since there is no word in the original Greek in the manuscripts, to add the word "A" instead of "the" or "is the" would be in just as much error in the translation. Not defending the KJV, I used many.
Isa 49:8
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; KJV
OT:3117
"A DAY": a space of time defined by its associated terms.
So, even in this O.T. verse which records "A Day", there is a particular definition in which it is associated to a definite space of time.
The Word "Time" (Kairos) used in 2 Corinthains 6:2 is not time measures by some type of time recording instrument, such as a watch, calendar, or observed time (Chronos), but a period which has a beginning and an end which will endure until that which it was designed to accomplish is fully accomplished. Here in context, Kairos is associated with Salvation. As far as I know at this point, there is no other Time of Salvation mentioned or recorded in the Scriptures.
Yes, in our western understand of the words "A", it could mean more than one of a kind, but "A" linked with the other word, (Kairos) ,gives the "A" a definite time limit.
Quote: How do you get that that portion of Hades is Gehenna? Other than similar imagery of course.
By exegesis which includes similar imagery.
Quote: I wouldn't be so quick to tie Gehenna to Hades though.
I feel that you already know that the Greek word, "Gehenna" is very often translated "Hell". By your observance you mentioned that "Hell" in several places, would better be translated using the word "Hades". "Gehenna---Hell---Hell---Hades" The two places are tied, may not be twins, but they are associated.
Quote: I wouldn't change the literal reading, ages of ages, into age of ages.
At this present time, I have not found any study aides which I possess (Various Bible Version, Commentaries, or Word Studies) to define the phrase "World without end" as "Ages of Ages".
Have found, "Ever and Ever", "Forever and Ever" and "Age of Ages". Word Studies render "Age of Ages" the most, but not "Ages of Ages".
Now, responding to your quote: "If you can spend a bit of money". No, I'm on a limited income, but I'm willing to accept all you are willing to send me. I accept Cash (U.S.) and Check payable to Ken. Just kidding, poking a little fun.
Ken
2 Cor 6:2
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) KJV
I printed in bold the area where I at, not trying to imply any harshness.
The words: "The, Is The (used twice)" are not included in the Nestle nor the Textus Receptus manuscripts. These words were add by the translators in an attempt to bring out a better meaning. Since there is no word in the original Greek in the manuscripts, to add the word "A" instead of "the" or "is the" would be in just as much error in the translation. Not defending the KJV, I used many.
Isa 49:8
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; KJV
OT:3117
"A DAY": a space of time defined by its associated terms.
So, even in this O.T. verse which records "A Day", there is a particular definition in which it is associated to a definite space of time.
The Word "Time" (Kairos) used in 2 Corinthains 6:2 is not time measures by some type of time recording instrument, such as a watch, calendar, or observed time (Chronos), but a period which has a beginning and an end which will endure until that which it was designed to accomplish is fully accomplished. Here in context, Kairos is associated with Salvation. As far as I know at this point, there is no other Time of Salvation mentioned or recorded in the Scriptures.
Yes, in our western understand of the words "A", it could mean more than one of a kind, but "A" linked with the other word, (Kairos) ,gives the "A" a definite time limit.
Quote: How do you get that that portion of Hades is Gehenna? Other than similar imagery of course.
By exegesis which includes similar imagery.
Quote: I wouldn't be so quick to tie Gehenna to Hades though.
I feel that you already know that the Greek word, "Gehenna" is very often translated "Hell". By your observance you mentioned that "Hell" in several places, would better be translated using the word "Hades". "Gehenna---Hell---Hell---Hades" The two places are tied, may not be twins, but they are associated.
Quote: I wouldn't change the literal reading, ages of ages, into age of ages.
At this present time, I have not found any study aides which I possess (Various Bible Version, Commentaries, or Word Studies) to define the phrase "World without end" as "Ages of Ages".
Have found, "Ever and Ever", "Forever and Ever" and "Age of Ages". Word Studies render "Age of Ages" the most, but not "Ages of Ages".
Now, responding to your quote: "If you can spend a bit of money". No, I'm on a limited income, but I'm willing to accept all you are willing to send me. I accept Cash (U.S.) and Check payable to Ken. Just kidding, poking a little fun.
Ken
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Rize
Well-Known Member
"...but a period which has a beginning and an end which will endure until that which it was designed to accomplish is fully accomplished."
Does this exclude the possibility of other days of salvation? If not, then what is to be fully accomplished?
The only thing we can take from all of this with certainty is that Paul was preaching that NOW (his now) is a/the day of salvation. For how long that day extends, we cannot say.
If Jesus used Gehenna to refer to a part of Hades, then, why didn't he use it again when speaking of the Rich Man?
As for translation, I think those proper words (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Sheol) should be left exactly how they are, and in a small dictionary in the back, those things should be clearly identified and described). If any of them clearly represent Hell as we think of it, then it is Gehenna. But I have my doubts that even that represents Hell. It may very well be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The only sticking point here is the verse in which Jesus says "do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul/life, fear Him who can destroy both body and soul/life in Gehenna." That seems to suggest after-life/judgment, but perhaps not. Psuche is apparently an extremely versatile Greek word. Though in this passage it seems to have the same meaning in both cases. However, I find it interesting that Jesus switched from kill to destroy when switching from what men could do to what God could do. I'm still contemplating that verse. If it weren't for that, I would say that the references to Gehenna could easily be viewed as references to an upcoming national judgment upon Israel (70 AD). Even so, perhaps it could still mean that.
As for money, I will send you some if you like I can't spare much at the moment (simply because I don't have much), but I'm not in need. And if I get this job I just applied for, I should have a lot of extra money soon. In any case, most of the study tools are a matter of convenience (having hard copies) since similar things can be accessed on the Internet for free most of the time. I was thinking about typing up (perhaps with some help) the Emphasized Bible's New Testament. It's old enough to be out of copyright, so it's just a matter of whether or not I can find the time and energy!
Does this exclude the possibility of other days of salvation? If not, then what is to be fully accomplished?
The only thing we can take from all of this with certainty is that Paul was preaching that NOW (his now) is a/the day of salvation. For how long that day extends, we cannot say.
If Jesus used Gehenna to refer to a part of Hades, then, why didn't he use it again when speaking of the Rich Man?
As for translation, I think those proper words (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Sheol) should be left exactly how they are, and in a small dictionary in the back, those things should be clearly identified and described). If any of them clearly represent Hell as we think of it, then it is Gehenna. But I have my doubts that even that represents Hell. It may very well be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The only sticking point here is the verse in which Jesus says "do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul/life, fear Him who can destroy both body and soul/life in Gehenna." That seems to suggest after-life/judgment, but perhaps not. Psuche is apparently an extremely versatile Greek word. Though in this passage it seems to have the same meaning in both cases. However, I find it interesting that Jesus switched from kill to destroy when switching from what men could do to what God could do. I'm still contemplating that verse. If it weren't for that, I would say that the references to Gehenna could easily be viewed as references to an upcoming national judgment upon Israel (70 AD). Even so, perhaps it could still mean that.
As for money, I will send you some if you like
I can't spare much at the moment (simply because I don't have much), but I'm not in need. And if I get this job I just applied for, I should have a lot of extra money soon. In any case, most of the study tools are a matter of convenience (having hard copies) since similar things can be accessed on the Internet for free most of the time. I was thinking about typing up (perhaps with some help) the Emphasized Bible's New Testament. It's old enough to be out of copyright, so it's just a matter of whether or not I can find the time and energy!
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Rize i think that is exactly what that means. What you just said about after-life/judgement. When man kills something, it is a point of just lying dead. Destroy or destruction is total and complete.
Isnt Hell or Hades both reference to the place of ALL dead, angels and humans alike? The general place of? Like Jesus having the keys to Death and Hell or Hades. All encompassing. There are though, different areas, or levels within Hell. Paradise aka Abrahams bosom, was one of those areas before the Cross, which was separated by a gulf. Sheol and Hades being the abode (next to the old Paradise) where the wicked dead were, the Rich Man, and some still are.Tatarus is the abode or area/level where certain angels of Jude 6, 2Pet.2:4, Gen.6:4 are chained until judgement. Gehenna i think is used as a descrpitive word for the general place of Hell, how one can get a relative picture based on the dung pit in Jeruselem as you had stated. Then lets not forget the bottomless pit, which i think is the lowest part(the depth of), so dark and low it has not bottom wherein to rest or stand.
I dont think the Rich Man is in Sheol/Hades anymore. He did realize after he had gotten there that he had done wrong and wanted his brothers warned. Therefore, when Jesus descended and preached to them, the Rich Man surely accepted Him with gladness.
You think?EveOfGrace
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Rize
Well-Known Member
This is getting rather off topic, so I'll post the reply in my "I give up" thread since that's my thread anyway and I don't care if it goes off topic.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36927.html
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36927.html
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Note that in the Bible, to "watch" doesn't mean to stare up in the sky waiting for something to happen; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).
"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the pre-wrath rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the pre-wrath rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."
This shows that it's possible for us who are keeping watch to also know at what time the thief is coming.
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Again, I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.
Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) of the 2nd coming but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).
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