Logical Problems with Calvinism

Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
And you don't do the same? What about the verses I brought up?
No doubt you believe John was talking to both Jew and Gentile as in reference to the WHOLE world. But I get no indication in the text about that. John did not seem concerned with Jewish believers versus Gentile believes. John meant what he said. He was comparing believers with the actual entire world in 1 John 2:2.

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Propitiation means that God's wrath is satisfied. So if His wrath is satisfied for every person who ever lived, that would mean that there's no basis to judge anyone because we've all been judged in Christ.

Albion · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
And you don't do the same?

I try not to. When I deal with a verse that seems obscure or appears to cut against what we think is correct, I never say "Doesn't matter," for instance.

Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
According to God's Word, if you believe in Calvinism in the fact that you think man cannot come to God, then it would not be a true statement and would be techincally a lie, ... yes.

God wants salvation for all people.
When you preach that people can be saved, you do not pick some people out of the crowd.
Salvation is for all.
God is not a respecter of persons.
Now, will everyone repent? No, of course not.
God knows who are His and who are not His.
But that does not mean the free gift was not available to all.
Salvation is not for some special elite club.

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Why isn't it true? Do you not believe that Christ died for those who would believe?

klutedavid · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Please take a look the list of verses I posted to you a little more closely. You will notice the words "free" and "will" and "choose" in there. These things cannot be if we did not have any ability to choose freely, etc.

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Hello Jason.

I really appreciate that you are taking the time to respond.

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

We know what the nation of Israel chose the calf.

That is why Jesus was sent Jason, we cannot choose the truth ourselves.

We must be drawn, our eyes must be opened, we must first be convicted.

Please insert the Holy Spirit into all your replies, the Holy Spirit simply
points you toward the Christ, that is while you are staring at the calf.

Albion · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
According to God's Word, if you believe in Calvinism in the fact that you think man cannot come to God, then it would not be a true statement and would be techincally a lie, ... yes.

God wants salvation for all people.

I'm not sure that "would have" means "wants."

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
Why isn't it true? Do you not believe that Christ died for those who would believe?

I most certainly do believe that.

However, I am getting the impression that you define "belief" as something that is the result of something God must do and not man.
Man cannot come to God without a regeneration.
Man cannot technically believe without this regeneration.
Unless of course you are a Synergist who believes they must first cooperate with God in order for the regeneration to take place.

But if you believe otherwise and hold to the Calvinistic view: Well, then, your definiton on the word "believe" is not true then.
It is not a natural belief on the part of man to simply choose God of their own free will.
Their belief is not really a belief but it is some kind of automatic response that was done in them by God.

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Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I most certainly do believe that.

However, I am getting the impression that you define "belief" as something that is the result of something God must do and not man.
Man cannot come to God without a regeneration.
Man cannot technically believe without this regeneration.
Unless of course you are a Synergist who believes they must first cooperate with God in order for the regeneration to take place.

But if you believe otherwise and hold to the Calvinistic view: Well, then, your definiton on the word "believe" is not true then.
It is not a natural belief on the part of man to simply choose God of their own free will.
Their belief is not really a belief but it is some kind of automatic response that was done in them by God.

....

A natural belief? So you admit to being a Pelagian?

sdowney717 · Dec 16, 2015

klutedavid said:
Hello Jason.

I really appreciate that you are taking the time to respond.

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

We know what the nation of Israel chose the calf.

That is why Jesus was sent Jason, we cannot choose the truth ourselves.

We must be drawn, our eyes must be opened, we must first be convicted.

Please insert the Holy Spirit into all your replies, the Holy Spirit simply
points you toward the Christ, that is while you are staring at the calf.

Yes, they chose the calf, and they grumbled, and they complained and they said God brought us into the wilderness to kill us and they wanted to go back to Egypt. For so long did God bear with them. Of the generation which saw His mighty works, none of them did God allow to enter the promised land except Joshua and Caleb, the rest their bones lay scattered in the desert. Of their children, which they lamented would be prey for their enemies, God said they would enter into the promised land. What an awful bunch, God was going to destroy them several times, but Moses interceeded for them.

He found fault with them, even though His covenant was perfect which they broke. They could not keep covenant with God.
So then HE brought about the new covenant written with the blood of Christ. In which God said He would write His laws on their hearts, and put His laws into their minds, and He would be their God , and they would be His people. and no one would teach anymore his neighbor, saying know the LORD, for they would ALL know HIM from the least to the greatest. And their sins and transgressions HE would remember no more.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
A natural belief? So you admit to being a Pelagian?

I said God draws a person. I also believe God makes it possible for man to repent. But I believe this power and ability is available to all people freely in this life. So it is not like God is sitting on the side lines or anything. God is working on a person's heart for them to repent. But once they do repent and believe in Jesus then God regenerates their spirit and gives them a new heart. But from there, they still need to endure in their faith to the End.

As for Pelagians: I heard the term before, but I am not sure what Pelagians believe.

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Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2015

Also, I am not really "believing" if it is was something God did in me to do it. So if you tell people to believe in Jesus Christ so as to be saved, then you are not exactly being truthful because you are not defining "belief" correctly to a person. For the Calvinist believes that "belief" is some kind of automatic response of what they would do naturally as a result of having been regenerated by God. In fact, it is futile to even tell them what to do. If they are regenerated, they are going to naturally believe eventually anyways. You do not need to tell them to believe in Jesus. In fact, you cannot tell them to believe. Because it is God who is the One who makes them believe.

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Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Also, I am not really "believing" if it is was something God did in me to do it. So if you tell people to believe in Jesus Christ so as to be saved, then you are not exactly being truthful because you are not defining "belief" correctly to a person. For the Calvinist believes that "belief" is some kind of automatic response of what they would do naturally as a result of having been regenerated by God. In fact, it is futile to even tell them what to do. If they are regenerated, they are going to naturally believe eventually anyways. You do not need to tell them to believe in Jesus. In fact, you cannot tell them to believe. Because it is God who is the One who makes them believe.

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Yep. You are s Pelagian.

klutedavid · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
I said God draws a person. I also believe God makes it possible for man to repent. But I believe this power and ability is available to all people freely in this life. So it is not like God is sitting on the side lines or anything. God is working on a person's heart for them to repent. But once they do repent and believe in Jesus then God regenerates their spirit and gives them a new heart. But from there, they still need to endure in their faith to the End.
As for Pelagians: I heard the term before, but I am not sure what Pelagians believe.
...

Hello Jason.

Even the endurance you mentioned will be a gift from above, freely given to us.

You will never be permitted to boast about anything you actually did, regarding your
salvation in Christ. The Christ is the one who reconciles us, Christ is the one who transfers
us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

The Christian Gospel is all about the Gospel of Grace, Christ first and Christ last.

klutedavid · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
Yep. You are s Pelagian.

Hello Hammster.

Can we burn the Pelagians now?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2015

klutedavid said:
Hello Jason.

Even the endurance you mentioned will be a gift from above, freely given to us.

You will never be permitted to boast about anything you actually did, regarding your
salvation in Christ. The Christ is the one who reconciles us, Christ is the one who transfers
us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

The Christian Gospel is all about the Gospel of Grace, Christ first and Christ last.

Why would I take credit for calling out to God to save me? That doesn't jive. I do not think choosing Christ is something I can boast about. It is not like that is a major effort on my part to do that. In fact, I believe that after a person accepts Christ, that the Lord then does the "good work" in them. So the believer cannot take any credit for any good done in their life.

Also, as I said before, I realize that I could not come to God without His drawing and without His power to give me the ability to repent. But I do not think these things are withheld by God for a select elite group. God desires that all men should repent. Salvation is free for all people to receive. God just knows some people will not accept it (Even though the offer is good to even them).

For there is great rejoicing in Heaven when a sinner repents over their sins. Okay, so why the rejoicing if it was all an act of God alone? Does not the rejoicing suggest that they are celebrating over the fact that a person has made the free will CHOICE to come to God? To me it does not sound right that they would be rejoicing over God forcing more believers up into Heaven.

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Received · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
The Scriptures say faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23). This would include the Living Word; And it would also include the Written Word, too (See 1 Peter 1:24-25).

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What he said.

sdowney717 · Dec 16, 2015

klutedavid said:
Hello Jason.

Even the endurance you mentioned will be a gift from above, freely given to us.

You will never be permitted to boast about anything you actually did, regarding your
salvation in Christ. The Christ is the one who reconciles us, Christ is the one who transfers
us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

The Christian Gospel is all about the Gospel of Grace, Christ first and Christ last.

Yes, consider your calling!
1 Corinthians 2
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Received · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
You seemed confident enough to make the statements.

Would you please stop making a bad name of Calvinism by being so unaccountably rude? You know that my responses to Marvin were solely because he started things. I have no disrespect toward Calvinists.

That said, although I can make an argument based on scripture, you seem to be indicating the standard by which God chooses things. I don't know that; I don't even know how a microwave works, so I'm sure I can't make any points on how God acts in specific situations. Scripture, other than making general statements about God being love, offering salvation to all, etc. I also follow Jason's point that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God -- but that also is both a general statement as well as a pretty vague one (what does it mean to hear? What does it mean to say it comes by the word of God?).

sdowney717 · Dec 16, 2015

Received said:
Would you please stop making a bad name of Calvinism by being so unaccountably rude? You know that my responses to Marvin were solely because he started things. I have no disrespect toward Calvinists.

That said, although I can make an argument based on scripture, you seem to be indicating the standard by which God chooses things. I don't know that; I don't even know how a microwave works, so I'm sure I can't make any points on how God acts in specific situations. Scripture, other than making general statements about God being love, offering salvation to all, etc. I also follow Jason's point that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God -- but that also is both a general statement as well as a pretty vague one (what does it mean to hear? What does it mean to say it comes by the word of God?).

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Simply faith comes by hearing God speak to you.
To be hearing we have to have the ears to hear, which is why it is said,
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

And that ability to hear God is a gift

Received · Dec 16, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Simply faith comes by hearing God speak to you.
To be hearing we have to have the ears to hear, which is why it is said,
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

And that ability to hear God is a gift

I agree with this, a passage that is even less explicit than Paul's other claim in this book that we are saved by faith, which isn't of ourselves (although there is a complicated Greek exegetical justification that it's the whole process of salvation, not faith specifically, that refers to the key preposition "that" in the passage, which I disagree with I think).

Let's also not forget the key definition of faith by James: faith without works is dead; faith with our works is alive.

Faith is given by God, perhaps in each moment, to those who have heard him. The candle is lit, but that's not all. We have to actualize this faith through works, otherwise the candle is extinguished, and faith is dead. By grace is it lit again and again, unless the person gets to the point of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, at which point he has lost his faith until he reaches a point of being receptive to it again. The simple act of God lighting faith in our souls isn't sufficient as complete faith; it is a starting point, an indication that we need to act, without which it's dead, because we've killed the living flame God lighted in our souls.

AndOne · Dec 16, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Brother,

I have no trouble with the idea of election. Election is the doctrine which the above quote by Calvin addresses.

My problem is with the concept of limited atonement as taught by many or even most 5-point Calvinists today.

I have posted a great many quotes by John Calvin in the "REFORMED" forum here. I have shown from Calvin's own words that he did not believe in limited atonement as normally taught in 5-point Calvinism.

Most Calvinists seem to be in shock when they actually read what John Calvin himself said about the subject of the extent of the atonement in his writings.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to revisit the subject on this thread.

Quite frankly the ones who have refuted me on the subject in the "ask a Calvinist" section simply went away and reconsidered their stance on whether limited atonement is actually representative of John Calvin's beliefs. None can refute what he himself said on the subject.

I taught so called 5-point Calvinism for a great many years before I came to realize that it had flaws just as did other systems of theology that are preached from "the other side".

The 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) came along long after Calvin's death and IMO he would roll over in his grave to see limited atonement as it is usually taught come to represent what he believed.

To be fair however - , John Calvin seems to have changed his mind a few times on this subject over the years and it is reflected in his writings.

The quote is actually a pretty good definition of LA.

Yea - pretty familiar with the history of Calvinism and know all about the five points and Dort. In all honesty in Calvin's writings I have seen more support for LA than not. I will check your thread in ask a Calvinist and reply more there. No need to derail this one any further.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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