Logical Problems with Calvinism

Received · Dec 15, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
You couldn't possibly have missed what I said about theological dictionaries.

Here are a few examples of what they define it as.

"Biblically, grace is unmerited favor."

"Grace (from the Greek New Testament word charis) is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God that we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor."

"In the New Testament grace means God’s love in action towards men who merited the opposite of love."

Is there a problem here or are you just being obstinate? This is exactly the kind of argumentative post which causes me to say that you as angry about Calvinism and not just entering into discussions about it for good purposes.

Haha, so I'm being angry because I'm being argumentative? Anyone who is arguing with you is therefore angry?

Theological dictionaries are theological dictionaries. You have to specify, otherwise your appeal to them is as vague as saying "cultures are good" (well, which ones?), and you're also begging the question by selecting a dictionary that might reflect your own opinion without giving an exegetical justification for it.

As for charis, I agree with that interpretation: it relates to charity (I know you know basic morphology). But just appealing to a term (whether or not you're letting a theologian speak for you) is conflating the literal meaning with the theological meaning, which appeals to a broader sense or context. E.g., faith can mean "trust", but left by itself is means very little -- trust in what, in what way, with what implications? So again, you've yet to post a definition of grace that doesn't beg the question by not appealing to scripture.

See my comments above about you flippant observation concerning my use of the Webster definition of grace.

So being critical means being flippant. More psychic underbelly revealed.

It also doesn't take a degree in psychiatry to notice that you are so bent out of shape about not being able to show Calvinism to be illogical that you won't even acknowledge the simple fact that your first 3 points in the OP were illogical and therefore did not prove your point.

You must have a real axe to grind to not acknowledge what everyone else here can see.

No - it screams of the ability to see right through you personal angst about Calvinists.

Thank you. I am a very observant person.

You have no idea how much I'm smiling now. And not out of condescension -- the sort of irony-motivated smile that's followed by a real, honest sadness toward the one who inspired it.

You are welcome for the exhaustive answers. That is what you insisted on my doing. So that is what I have been doing.

I'm not sure what all that means. Please explain it better and I will address it.

Sure. I'm asking what the alternatives are when it comes to sin: you can act in sin (or, as you say, be in a state of sin), act/be in faith, and is that all or is there some other possibility, and if so what (e.g., you can just "not sin" while not being in faith)?

AndOne · Dec 15, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Tell it to me straight. Does God ultimately choose man to believe or does man ultimately choose God by faith?

Or do you think God chooses us to be regenerated based on knowing man's free will choice in accepting Christ?

...

God ultimately chooses man to believe - but that is a different topic than the state of the will.

AndOne · Dec 15, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
This is the trouble with labels. What many people say people believe isn't necessarily what they believe.

For instance, John Calvin didn't even believe in limited atonement.

I don't believe in limited atonement either as it is usually presented by so called Calvinists. I don't believe in the perseverance of the saints as it is often taught. I have a different view on irresistible grace and total depravity than many Calvinists.

For this reason many died in the wool 5-pointers disown me as a "true" Calvinist.

At the same time I get branded a Calvinist by the other side for believing in predestination and election. For this reason they often misstate what I believe and I have to correct them on it time and time again.

Brother - whether you accept all five points makes no difference to me so long as you accept Christ. I have not agreed with all of your posts but you always seem to be thoughtful and respectful.

In regards to Calvin and LA -

This is cut and pasted directly from the online version of Calvin's Insitutes, Book First, Chapter 7, para 5:

I do not dwell on this subject at present, because we will return to it again: only let us now understand that the only true faith is that which the Spirit of God seals on our hearts. Nay, the modest and teachable reader will find a sufficient reason in the promise contained in Isaiah, that all the children of the renovated Church “shall be taught of the Lord,” (Isaiah 54:13). This singular privilege God bestows on his elect only, whom he separates from the rest of mankind.

klutedavid · Dec 15, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

v19 all the world includes all gentiles and jew and the law of God here applies to all peoples.

Hello SDowney.

I still do not see that your claim is valid, who is Paul addressing?

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the
law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty
before God.

How does this verse validate that Paul is talking to a Gentile now?

How do you interpret the following verse from chapter three.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No,
but by a law of faith.

Gentiles cannot boast before God, Gentiles did not even know God, Gentiles
have nothing to boast about.

Romans 2:17
Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God;

Jews were able to boast and they did boast.

Paul is still addressing the Jewish audience it seems.

Marvin Knox · Dec 15, 2015

Received said:
Sure. I'm asking what the alternatives are when it comes to sin: you can act in sin (or, as you say, be in a state of sin), act/be in faith, and is that all or is there some other possibility, and if so what (e.g., you can just "not sin" while not being in faith)?

That doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you for clarification. Please clarify or forget it. Thanks!

Don't look now BTW. Your anger and insecurity is showing.

You may have noticed or not but you haven't received many "likes" on your posts. That's because you aren't even close to being right on this and everyone knows it.

Your OP was flawed and you will not admit it. And you are not dialoging now on the subject in a serious manner either.

Now then ----- ask questions seriously and in a straight forward manner from now on out or we will end this.

No insults and no personal remarks from now on out. Just straight talk on theology. I promise before God to do the same.

It's your choice. The ball is in your court.

Marvin Knox · Dec 15, 2015

AndOne said:
Brother - whether you accept all five points makes no difference to me so long as you accept Christ. I have not agreed with all of your posts but you always seem to be thoughtful and respectful.

In regards to Calvin and LA -

This is cut and pasted directly from the online version of Calvin's Insitutes, Book First, Chapter 7, para 5:

I do not dwell on this subject at present, because we will return to it again: only let us now understand that the only true faith is that which the Spirit of God seals on our hearts. Nay, the modest and teachable reader will find a sufficient reason in the promise contained in Isaiah, that all the children of the renovated Church “shall be taught of the Lord,” (Isaiah 54:13). This singular privilege God bestows on his elect only, whom he separates from the rest of mankind.

Brother,

I have no trouble with the idea of election. Election is the doctrine which the above quote by Calvin addresses.

My problem is with the concept of limited atonement as taught by many or even most 5-point Calvinists today.

I have posted a great many quotes by John Calvin in the "REFORMED" forum here. I have shown from Calvin's own words that he did not believe in limited atonement as normally taught in 5-point Calvinism.

Most Calvinists seem to be in shock when they actually read what John Calvin himself said about the subject of the extent of the atonement in his writings.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to revisit the subject on this thread.

Quite frankly the ones who have refuted me on the subject in the "ask a Calvinist" section simply went away and reconsidered their stance on whether limited atonement is actually representative of John Calvin's beliefs. None can refute what he himself said on the subject.

I taught so called 5-point Calvinism for a great many years before I came to realize that it had flaws just as did other systems of theology that are preached from "the other side".

The 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) came along long after Calvin's death and IMO he would roll over in his grave to see limited atonement as it is usually taught come to represent what he believed.

To be fair however - , John Calvin seems to have changed his mind a few times on this subject over the years and it is reflected in his writings.

Received · Dec 15, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
That doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you for clarification. Please clarify or forget it. Thanks!

What about it doesn't make sense? Remember that I'm trying to make sense of your theology by asking these questions, so don't look too closely in the mirror in claiming nonsense.

Don't look now BTW. Your anger and insecurity is showing.

You may have noticed or not but you haven't received many "likes" on your posts. That's because you aren't even close to being right on this and everyone knows it.

Your OP was flawed and you will not admit it. And you are not dialoging now on the subject in a serious manner either.

You make superfluous, unsubstantiated, ad hominem comments like these...

Now then ----- ask questions seriously and in a straight forward manner from now on out or we will end this.

Followed by an authoritarian statement like this.

No insults and no personal remarks from now on out. Just straight talk on theology. I promise before God to do the same.

It's your choice. The ball is in your court.

And then claim you're not down with insults or personal remarks.

You are a case study, brother.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2015

AndOne said:
God ultimately chooses man to believe - but that is a different topic than the state of the will.

Your still talking in fuzzy terms for me. Please do not take offense, but it seems like you do not want to obviously be clear in explaining in what you believe. Is this true?

Anyways, let me reword it for you. Do you believe God forces or makes some people to believe while God makes or forces others to not believe? Do you believe man in no way shape or form is able to choose God in any way? Do you believe man's free will only can make certain choices like making dinner or not making dinner but that man is not capable of choosing God, though? Do you believe God zaps people into the Kingdom? If so, then how does He choose? Does He see something good in them? Or does God like make some people to be good and make some people to be bad? Who is responsible for man's denial in not wanting to be with God? Man or God? If you say God then God is to blame for man's denial of God. But if you say man, then man is ultimately held responsible for his choice in rejecting God in this life (Which means man is going to be held accountable for accepting or rejecting Christ in this life).

....

Marvin Knox · Dec 16, 2015

Received said:
What about it doesn't make sense? Remember that I'm trying to make sense of your theology by asking these questions, so don't look too closely in the mirror in claiming nonsense.

You make superfluous, unsubstantiated, ad hominem comments like these...

Followed by an authoritarian statement like this.

And then claim you're not down with insults or personal remarks.

You are a case study, brother.

You've made your choice.

You are obviously not interested in serious conversation about Calvinism.

Maybe someone else will join with you in serious conversation after this. But after everyone has seen your true stripes here I doubt it.

I thought at first that it was just a coincidence that your avatar looked a lot like Alec Baldwin.

But you do have a lot in common after all.

Received · Dec 16, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
You've made your choice.

You are obviously not interested in serious conversation about Calvinism.

Maybe someone else will join with you in serious conversation after this. But after everyone has seen your true stripes here I doubt it.

I thought at first that it was just a coincidence that your avatar looked a lot like Alec Baldwin.

But you do have a lot in common after all.

Bye.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2015

God does not zap us into His Kingdom. We are told by God in His Word to choose this day in whom we will serve.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"(Joshua 24:15).

We are also told in God's Word that there are those who choose not to fear of the Lord and his ways. We are also told by God in His Word to refuse the evil and to choose the good. We are told by God to choose that which pleases Him.

(Proverbs 1:29)"...they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD."
(Proverbs 3:31)"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."
(Isaiah 7:15)"...know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."
(Isaiah 56:4)"...choose the things that please Me, and take hold of My Covenant."

In other words, according to the verses above, it sounds like man has free will to choose God and His good ways.

...

Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Your still talking in fuzzy terms for me. Please do not take offense, but it seems like you do not want to obviously be clear in explaining in what you believe. Is this true?

Anyways, let me reword it for you. Do you believe God forces or makes some people to believe while God makes or forces others to not believe? Do you believe man in no way shape or form is able to choose God in any way? Do you believe man's free will only can make certain choices like making dinner or not making dinner but that man is not capable of choosing God, though? Do you believe God zaps people into the Kingdom? If so, then how does He choose? Does He see something good in them? Or does God like make some people to be good and make some people to be bad? Who is responsible for man's denial in not wanting to be with God? Man or God? If you say God then God is to blame for man's denial of God. But if you say man, then man is ultimately held responsible for his choice in rejecting God in this life (Which means man is going to be held accountable for accepting or rejecting Christ in this life).

....

I'll be clear. God never forces anyone to believe.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 16, 2015

AndOne said:
God ultimately chooses man to believe - but that is a different topic than the state of the will.

When will someone from the reformed side PLEASE provide the Biblical teaching that God chooses who will believe???

I cannot believe what isn't taught in Scripture. So if God does choose who will believe, where is that taught?

Please note that I haven't asked for "which verse". I just want to know where it's taught.

And, to address the "single verse" challenge, if a claim is biblically true, there WILL BE clear statements in Scripture to that effect.

Paul certainly doesn't think God chooses who will believe. But Paul certainly KNOWS that God chooses to save those who believe. He actually said so in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

That is a clear verse about who God chooses to save; believers.

So, where in Scripture is the idea that God chooses who will believe. Since there isn't any verse that plainly makes that claim.

sdowney717 · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
I'll be clear. God never forces anyone to believe.

Correct, they are taught by God. All who learn from the Father come to Christ.
Unless born of God first, they wont be taught, teachable or learn anything from the Holy Spirit.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 16, 2015

Hammster said:
I'll be clear. God never forces anyone to believe.

That's never been the issue. The question has always been: Does God choose who will believe? Another poster just made that comment.

So, please answer the question; does God choose who will believe. I know He is omniscient and KNOWS who will believe. But please stick with the question of whether He chooses who will believe.

And please provide where that is taught in Scripture. Note that I didn't ask for a "single verse". I am asking for where it's taught clearly as an idea.

Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 16, 2015

From post #698:
Hammster said:
"With the new heart, a man freely believes. He must give a new heart because with the heart of stone, he will stay in his wicked ways."

My question back to him:
"How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways? 2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul."

Hammster, could you address this question, please?

Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Correct, they are taught by God. All who learn from the Father come to Christ.
Unless born of God first, they wont be taught, teachable or learn anything from the Holy Spirit.

That's why your posts on Ezekiel 11 were important. God said He'd give some new hearts. Nothing in there about them being good first. Nothing about cleaning themselves up. Nothing about having faith first.

Hammster · Dec 16, 2015

Received said:
A Calvinist is asking me how God helps us?

Yes. Can you give me an answer?

ZacharyB · Dec 16, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways?
2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul."

You're asking this question, and continue to believe in OSAS?
You're now seeing this ludicrous situation for what it is? ...

Unbelievers who are into habitual sinning are destined to hell.

Believers who are into habitual sinning are destined to heaven.
Today there are multitudes of these in the churches,
but some people insist they could not possibly be born-again
with the indwelling Holy Spirit. I say many are!
.

ladodgers6 · Dec 16, 2015

Jason0047 said:
God does not zap us into His Kingdom. We are told by God in His Word to choose this day in whom we will serve.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"(Joshua 24:15).

We are also told in God that there are those who choose not to fear of the Lord and his ways. We are also told by God in His Word to refuse the evil and to choose the good. We are told by God to choose that which pleases Him.

(Proverbs 1:29)"...they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD."

(Proverbs 3:31)"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."

(Isaiah 7:15)"...know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."

(Isaiah 56:4)"...choose the things that please Me, and take hold of My Covenant."

In other words, according to the verses above, it sounds like man has free will to choose God and His good ways.

...

Classic Calvinism,does not deny free-will.Sinners can choose whom to serve.But as sinners we already serve Satan and Sin.Sinners do this willingly,nobody is forcing them to sin.Sinners by nature are sinful;meaning that they choose what they crave for,desire for,pleasure for.Read this and tell me what you think about it.

Ephesians 2

By Grace Through Faith
2 and the mind, and 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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