Ex gentile? All must be Torah observant

pinacled · Nov 21, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
I don't believe there is any rule against stating that I don't follow Paul and will not answer questions that only make sense if you aspire to Pauline theology. I didn't write anything attempting to disprove Paul's position, besides making one post responding to someone who was wondering why some people believe that Paul was pro Torah and why others believe that he was anti Torah, and I explained how he fits both profiles and that that was probably his reason for making such statements about catching people with guile. I admittedly hadn't at that point read the post with the rules pertaining to the prohibition of posting anything that refutes Paul, but despite that I didn't refute Paul out of respect for the fact that this, being a Christian forum, most members probably do accept him, but I just made it clear that I don't and helped answer a question relating to Paul's position. I am sorry if you believe this to be an infraction of the rules, I don't believe that it is, but I am happy to be corrected if so.

This is your one.

Shimshon · Nov 21, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
I didn't write anything attempting to disprove Paul's position,

I didn't refute Paul out of respect for the fact that this, being a Christian forum,

but I am happy to be corrected if so.

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
That's how he caught many people "with guile" and how he caught many people "with a lie" that he claimed was not a sin because it was a "lie for God", the guy was a serpent through and through, yet he's the most beloved man in Christianity... If you're a Jew who doesn't believe in Yeshua/Jesus, you're a Jew and that's cool! If you're a Jew who believes in Yeshua but rejects Paul you're the antichrist and a heretic and you deny "Christ" and you claim that we don't need "Christ" and bla bla bla... That's the reality of Paulism and who/what Paul is, a deceiver.

when someone calls another a liar and a deceiver, one is by default disproving and speaks against the position. Did you realize this?

BelieveTheWord · Nov 21, 2015

Shimshon said:
when someone calls another a liar and a deceiver, one is by default disproving and speaks against the position. Did you realize this?

Stating what you believe and arguing for it are two different things.

Pentateuch and Yeshua · Nov 21, 2015

No constructive discussion on any of the subjects?

Sheeple Shepherd · Nov 21, 2015

I'm not reading every post here........

That said, those who have 'eyes to see and ears to hear', who have come to the Sabbaths.......they are Israelites.

We have been made aware of our true identities. Yah has called us out.

ContraMundum · Nov 22, 2015

Why would anyone with a decidedly anti-Paul position who drops snipes about him and his doctrine in his posts want to be here? Secondly, why on Earth would they then call for "friendly discussion"? "Let me disrespect your piety and let me continue to do so under the cloak of friendliness". I think that's a mixed message. Most unhelpful to forum unity and peace.

Lulav · Nov 23, 2015

Shimshon said:
when someone calls another a liar and a deceiver, one is by default disproving and speaks against the position. Did you realize this?

Let's give the newbie a break, he was not familiar with the rules but is now.

Let's also practice Hospitality not Hostility.

To argue that Paul wasn't a deceiver is to argue against what is contained in the Bible, but G-d wanted those writings in there, it's what we do with them that counts.

Blessed is the man unto whom the L-RD imputes not iniquity,and in whose spirit there is no guile.Ps 32

Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.Ps 34

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT (guile) FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;1Pet 2

2 Corinthians Paul in defense of himself from a letter we do not know about says this:

I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 1 6But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit (guile).

These are his own words, not someone else saying it so we can't deny it's in the Bible. Claiming to being a crafty fellow, the Greek 'panourgos' describes some one that would do anything to get their own way.

This is not dissing Paul, but only stating that it is in the Bible and should not be censored.

visionary · Nov 23, 2015

mercy1061 said:
The purpose of this thread is not to discuss or debate the SOP, it is nonnegotiable, I agree 100 per cent. I was wondering if gentiles become Torah observant, are they no longer gentiles ( ex gentiles)?

Part of the problem is that Jews have identified with Torah observance for so many centuries, it is hard to comprehend that other nations are coming to observe it also and keeping their identity as from other nations. They are not interested in being called a Jew. They are not interested in identifying with the Jewish nation, Israel, per say. They are just interested in following Yeshua in Torah observance. So what ...

mercy1061 · Nov 23, 2015

Lulav said:
Let's give the newbie a break, he was not familiar with the rules but is now.

Let's also practice Hospitality not Hostility.

To argue that Paul wasn't a deceiver is to argue against what is contained in the Bible, but G-d wanted those writings in there, it's what we do with them that counts.

Blessed is the man unto whom the L-RD imputes not iniquity,and in whose spirit there is no guile.Ps 32

Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.Ps 34

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT (guile) FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;1Pet 2

2 Corinthians Paul in defense of himself from a letter we do not know about says this:

I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 1 6But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit (guile).

These are his own words, not someone else saying it so we can't deny it's in the Bible. Claiming to being a crafty fellow, the Greek 'panourgos' describes some one that would do anything to get their own way.

This is not dissing Paul, but only stating that it is in the Bible and should not be censored.

visionary said:
Part of the problem is that Jews have identified with Torah observance for so many centuries, it is hard to comprehend that other nations are coming to observe it also and keeping their identity as from other nations. They are not interested in being called a Jew. They are not interested in identifying with the Jewish nation, Israel, per say. They are just interested in following Yeshua in Torah observance. So what ...

2 Corinthians 12:19

mercy1061 · Nov 23, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
I don't believe there is any rule against stating that I don't follow Paul and will not answer questions that only make sense if you aspire to Pauline theology. I didn't write anything attempting to disprove Paul's position, besides making one post responding to someone who was wondering why some people believe that Paul was pro Torah and why others believe that he was anti Torah, and I explained how he fits both profiles and that that was probably his reason for making such statements about catching people with guile. I admittedly hadn't at that point read the post with the rules pertaining to the prohibition of posting anything that refutes Paul, but despite that I didn't refute Paul out of respect for the fact that this, being a Christian forum, most members probably do accept him, but I just made it clear that I don't and helped answer a question relating to Paul's position. I am sorry if you believe this to be an infraction of the rules, I don't believe that it is, but I am happy to be corrected if so.

The Pharisees consistently used sarcasm in their questioning toward Yeshua. Saul the Pharisee was no different, he was a Pharisee, son of a Pharisee! Yes indeed! His apostleship was being questioned because he would not accept financial support, as Elisha the prophet would not accept money from Naaman . So if they disqualified his apostleship or bondservant of Christ status, he had a much greater honor among the Jews, he was a Pharisee. 2 Corinthians 12. This chapter is about Saul the Pharisee showing them more love, not accepting any support from them , it is appropriate for parents to store up wealth or treasure for their children, Saul treated the Corinthians as his own children. Children should not store up treasure for their parents. Some may consider this guile that Saul the Pharisee called himself an apostle or bondservant, the other apostles received payment for their labor, as all bondservants receive money for their labor. Saul the Pharisee revealed his true identity as Pharisee or higher office when he refused to accept financial support for preaching the good news.

Pentateuch and Yeshua · Nov 23, 2015

In Acts he says that he is a Roman Citizen and has had the citizenship since birth. The Roman centurion replies to him that he had to pay a lot of money to have a citizenship. How is it that a pharisee under Roman oppression would have a Roman Citizenship from birth while Roman soldiers contracted by a Roman Legionnaire would have to pay for one? I am not a historian and I can't find the answer by Google searching it, do you or does anyone here know?

BukiRob · Nov 23, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
In Acts he says that he is a Roman Citizen and has had the citizenship since birth. The Roman centurion replies to him that he had to pay a lot of money to have a citizenship. How is it that a pharisee under Roman oppression would have a Roman Citizenship from birth while Roman soldiers contracted by a Roman Legionnaire would have to pay for one? I am not a historian and I can't find the answer by Google searching it, do you or does anyone here know?

Scripture does not shed light on this.... anything anyone would say about that would be speculation

mercy1061 · Nov 23, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
In Acts he says that he is a Roman Citizen and has had the citizenship since birth. The Roman centurion replies to him that he had to pay a lot of money to have a citizenship. How is it that a pharisee under Roman oppression would have a Roman Citizenship from birth while Roman soldiers contracted by a Roman Legionnaire would have to pay for one? I am not a historian and I can't find the answer by Google searching it, do you or does anyone here know?

Perhaps Saul the Pharisee was born in Rome, it is obvious this commander was not a Roman citizen at birth, thus he paid a large sum of money, probably through bribery. Saul had the true legal citizenship, that is why he was released. The Romans did rule the world at this time, they may have had a diverse military from different backgrounds like the US. We know if a foreignor serves in the US military he may gain citizenship.

mercy1061 · Nov 23, 2015

BukiRob said:
Scripture does not shed light on this.... anything anyone would say about that would be speculation

Any world power or military would grant their subjects or oppressed incentive, naturally one would be citizenship or green card. However if a foreignor has a child in the US, the child is granted citizenship by birth, although his parents may not be legal citizens. Birth certificate is an important legal document, it is used to prove legal citizenship in a sovereign nation. As Yeshua says to Nicodemus the Pharisee, you must be born again! Nicodemus knew that when a man is born from his mother's womb, the government will issue his parents a birth certificate to help him gain legal citizenship in that nation.

pat34lee · Nov 23, 2015

Pentateuch and Yeshua said:
In Acts he says that he is a Roman Citizen and has had the citizenship since birth. The Roman centurion replies to him that he had to pay a lot of money to have a citizenship. How is it that a pharisee under Roman oppression would have a Roman Citizenship from birth while Roman soldiers contracted by a Roman Legionnaire would have to pay for one? I am not a historian and I can't find the answer by Google searching it, do you or does anyone here know?

I haven't had time to read through this, but it looks promising.
https://www.academia.edu/3793625/Pa...ts_Importance_for_Understanding_Acts_22_22-29

yonah_mishael · Nov 24, 2015

BukiRob said:
Scripture does not shed light on this.... anything anyone would say about that would be speculation

If we didn't have vast resources of Roman literature, you might be right. But, you're not.

Here is a paper on the question: https://www.academia.edu/3793625/Pa...ts_Importance_for_Understanding_Acts_22_22-29

yonah_mishael · Nov 24, 2015

pat34lee said:
I haven't had time to read through this, but it looks promising.
https://www.academia.edu/3793625/Pa...ts_Importance_for_Understanding_Acts_22_22-29

I didn't see that you had posted this.

Lulav · Nov 24, 2015

All of the Herodians had Roman citizenship from what I've learned so it's not hard to understand.

BukiRob · Nov 24, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
If we didn't have vast resources of Roman literature, you might be right. But, you're not.

Here is a paper on the question: https://www.academia.edu/3793625/Pa...ts_Importance_for_Understanding_Acts_22_22-29

thank you for the link... I will read it

Jeremiah3133 · Nov 25, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
This is why I prefer the term "non-Jew" (אינו יהודי) rather than "Gentile" (גוי = τὶς ἐκ τῶν ἔθνων, which means "someone from the nations"). Non-Jews are fine just as they are and don't need to feel the need to become Jewish or to appear Jewish, even if they believe in keeping the Torah as they interpret it.

I think we're basically saying the same thing.

Wouldn't keeping the Torah make one appear Jewish, even if that is not their intent?

Ex gentile? All must be Torah observant

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