Boyfriend is leaving b/c of his "new" christian views.

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
As far as I understand it, a man in the Bible can have as many wives as he wants and can support, and a woman can only have one husband. Therefore, "fornication/inappropriate contenteias", in context, equals a man having sex with a married woman (not married to him), or vice versa. Therefore, no such thing as "premarital sex"

You don't understand that marriage is different from being single?

Skaloop · Nov 10, 2015

Jahrooshshalom said:
In numerous verses throughout scripture. Here's one example:
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5

That mentions sexual immorality, not premarital sex. You can make the leap that premarital sex is immoral, but that is not explicit in that passage.

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 10, 2015

Skaloop said:
That mentions sexual immorality, not premarital sex. You can make the leap that premarital sex is immoral, but that is not explicit in that passage.

It's no leap. And premarital sex is explicit in that passage.
And if that passage isn't sufficient there's always 1 Corinthians 7.

ToBeLoved · Nov 10, 2015

What I would try to do is have a serious discussion with him.

Do not interrupt him or make him feel guilty, because then he might lie to you just to not hurt your feelings. But let him talk freely without interruption and hopefully he will feel that he can be honest and give you the whole story.

If worse comes to worse do it over the phone because then he can't see your emotions.

Find out the truth of the situation first so you can deal with it instead of wondering.

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

Jahrooshshalom said:
You don't understand that marriage is different from being single?

I understand that "marriage" is a "union" (sexual and otherwise), and not a piece of paper or approval from a state or other civil government.

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

Jahrooshshalom said:
It's no leap. And premarital sex is explicit in that passage.
And if that passage isn't sufficient there's always 1 Corinthians 7.

1Cor 7 is not incompatible with my understanding that a man can have multiple wives, and a wife can only have one husband.

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
1Cor 7 is not incompatible with my understanding that a man can have multiple wives, and a wife can only have one husband.

Show us the scripture that says premarital sex is approved by God.

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

Jahrooshshalom said:
Show us the scripture that says premarital sex is approved by God.

... after you show me the verses which talks directly about this concept called "premarital sex" (a concept which I say is foreign to the Bible).

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
... after you show me the verses which talks directly about this concept called "premarital sex" (a concept which I say is foreign to the Bible).

That's what I thought. Thanks.

St_Worm2 · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
As far as I understand it, a man in the Bible can have as many wives as he wants and can support, and a woman can only have one husband. Therefore, "fornication/inappropriate contenteias", in context, equals a man having sex with a married woman (not married to him), or vice versa. Therefore, no such thing as "premarital sex"

Hi Ananda, would you mind showing us where the Bible teaches this, that a man can have as many wives as he can afford (because I have clearly missed it). And while it's clear that there were men in the OT who had multiple wives, that doesn't mean that God intended for it to occur or approved of it. The Bible is an interesting book in that it reveals the character traits of most of the men and women it talks about, both the good traits AND the sinful.

And while the OT does not specifically address plural marriage, the case for monogamous marriage is seen from the very beginning where God says “for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife (not wives), and they will become one flesh (not fleshes) .. Genesis 2:24. And so it continues to the end of the Bible (meaning the NT as well).

Quite frankly, if this kind of behavior in the OT was approved of by God, why don't we have any Jewish families living in such marriages today? Surely we would see more than a few Jewish men at least attempting to have a go at, especially if these kind of marriages were encouraged

Or are there such marriages today after all :scratch:

Perhaps some of our Jewish (or even Messianic) CF members could chime in and let us know how their "plural" marriages are working out for them?

ViaCrucis · Nov 10, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
You're probably right, thanks Keith Assuming this young man has indeed come under the influence of a new Christian teacher, why do you believe this guy must be "unbalanced at best" or "cultish at worst"?

Thanks!

--David

It'd largely depend on the influence; I don't think a well balanced pastor would suggest a man just up and walk away and be irresponsible toward the feelings of the woman. It seems like the sort of thing that should involve a rather healthy and open exchange between both partners in the relationship, to avoid unnecessarily hurting anyone.

I don't think we can know one way or the other as it pertains to a hypothetical new pastor or religious influence; but I do think that any pastor worth their salt would, if asked for advice in such a matter, point in the direction of the more compassionate route.

Things I have seen in my observations (mostly in my younger days) is young horny guys acting on their hormones and then freaking out because "oh no! I'm living in sin!" and will just rather unceremoniously dump their girlfriend, in some cases blaming them for seducing them. I mean, hormones are tricky little things, but still there are good ways and bad ways to handle guilt.

That all said, I don't think it's always possible to navigate through this without inadvertently hurting the other person. Unfortunately that can just come about in relationships where complex emotions are involved--but I still think there are better ways than others to attempt it.

-CryptoLutheran

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
Hi Ananda, would you mind showing us where the Bible teaches this, that a man can have as many wives as he can afford (because I have clearly missed it). And while it's clear that there were men in the OT who had multiple wives, that doesn't mean that God intended for it to occur or approved of it. The Bible is an interesting book in that it reveals the character traits of most of the men and women it talks about, both the good traits AND the sinful.

Multiple individuals considered prophets in the Bible had multiple wives, and I do not see the Biblical god condemning them for it in the Bible. E.g. Lamech (Gen 4:19), Abram (Gen 16, 25:6), Jacob (Gen 31:17), Gideon (Judges 8:30), Elkanah (1Sam 1:1-2), Solomon (1Kin 11:2-3), etc. Commandments were also given regarding responsibility to provide for multiple wives: Ex 21:10, Deu 21:15, etc.

And while the OT does not specifically address plural marriage

Yes it does, as I've shown: Ex 21:10, Deu 21:15.

, the case for monogamous marriage is seen from the very beginning where God says “for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife (not wives), and they will become one flesh (not fleshes) .. Genesis 2:24.

This does not disapprove of multiple wives. This verse is only descriptive of what supposedly happens when a man and woman is united (they become one flesh); it is not prohibitive against the man joining with another free woman (they are one flesh as well, implying that the first wife and second wife, etc. are not joined).

And so it continues to the end of the Bible (meaning the NT as well) Quite frankly, if this kind of behavior in the OT was approved of, why don't we have any Jewish families living in such marriages today? Surely we would see more than a few Jewish men at least attempting to have a go at it then Or are there such marriages today after all Perhaps some of our Jewish or even Messianic CF members could chime in and let us know how their "plural" marriages working out for them?

I'm neither Jewish nor Messianic, so I can't speak for them.

St_Worm2 · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
Multiple individuals considered prophets in the Bible had multiple wives, and I do not see the Biblical god condemning them for it in the Bible. E.g. Lamech (Gen 4:19), Abram (Gen 16, 25:6), Jacob (Gen 31:17), Gideon (Judges 8:30), Elkanah (1Sam 1:1-2), Solomon (1Kin 11:2-3), etc. Commandments were also given regarding responsibility to provide for multiple wives: Ex 21:10, Deu 21:15, etc.

Yes it does, as I've shown: Ex 21:10, Deu 21:15.

This does not disapprove of multiple wives. This verse is only descriptive of what supposedly happens when a man and woman is united (they become one flesh); it is not prohibitive against the man joining with another free woman (they are one flesh as well, implying that the first wife and second wife, etc. are not joined).

I'm neither Jewish nor Messianic, so I can't speak for them.

God 'allowing' sinful behavior to occur is not the same thing as Him commanding it or even approving of it. People sin all the time, but the fact that God allows such behaviors to occur never means He approves of them.

As for Exodus 21:10 and Deuteronomy 21:15, God makes no command concerning plural marriage there except to provide for the protection of the powerless within those marriages (both wives and children).

Perhaps I am wrong concerning plural marriage in the OT, but surely the "proof is in the pudding", since plural marriage does not exist within the Jewish community anywhere in the world that I am aware of. Again, perhaps our Jewish members could help us out with this?

Skaloop · Nov 10, 2015

Jahrooshshalom said:
It's no leap. And premarital sex is explicit in that passage.
And if that passage isn't sufficient there's always 1 Corinthians 7.

Since the passage doesn't include the words "premarital sex", no, it is not explicit.

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
God 'allowing' sinful behavior to occur is not the same thing as Him commanding it or even approving of it. People sin all the time, but the fact that God allows such behaviors to occur never means He approves of them.

As for Exodus 21:10 and Deuteronomy 21:15, God makes no command concerning plural marriage there except to provide for the protection of the powerless within those marriages (both wives and children).

Perhaps I am wrong concerning plural marriage in the OT,

Show me a verse where it says "do not have multiple wives". The preponderance of evidence shows that it was acceptable (with the Biblical deity even providing regulations regarding plural marriages). It is the height of absurdity, at least in my eyes, for a god to (allegedly) prohibit something and then give rules on how to practice that very thing.

but surely the "proof is in the pudding", since plural marriage does not exist within the Jewish community anywhere in the world that I am aware of. Again, perhaps our Jewish members could help us out with this?

I don't see how modern day Judaism has much to do with Biblical Judaism, as they follow the Talmud more than the Torah.

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 10, 2015

Skaloop said:
Since the passage doesn't include the words "premarital sex", no, it is not explicit.

The two words, premarital sex, do not have to be printed in that passage in order to meet the definition of explicit.
Agnostic atheist, is an oxymoron . Therefore I don't think you should try to take issue with the term, explicit, as pertains to attempting to argue the veracity of Christian scriptures.

St_Worm2 · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
Show me a verse where it says "do not have multiple wives". The preponderance of evidence shows that it was acceptable (with the Biblical deity even providing regulations regarding plural marriages). It is the height of absurdity, at least in my eyes, for a god to (allegedly) prohibit something and then give rules on how to practice that very thing.

Moses "allowed" for divorce in the OT for a number of reasons, telling men that they should give their wives a certificate of divorce if they wanted them to leave (this was meant as a means of protection for their wives). But Jesus makes it clear in the NT that "God hates divorce" and always has, only allowing for it in the OT because "men's hearts were hard". God 'allowing' for divorce in the OT never meant He approved of it, even though He had Moses make provision for it. Jesus stops this practice in the NT and makes it clear that divorce for any other reason than marital unfaithfulness is sinful.

I think we discussed all of this pretty thoroughly here at CF within the last couple of years. Let me see if I can find that thread and I'll get back to you. You continue:

ananda said:
I don't see how modern day Judaism has much to do with Biblical Judaism, as they follow the Talmud more than the Torah.

I think you may get a little push-back from our Jewish friends about that

(IOW, that Israel in the time of Moses followed Torah, but that modern Jews follow Talmud instead).The Talmud, Jewish "oral" tradition (now written down), is said to have been established at the same time the Torah was written by Moses. Hopefully our Jewish friends can help with this as well

Yours and His,
David

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
Moses "allowed" for divorce in the OT for a number of reasons, telling men that they should give their wives a certificate of divorce if they wanted them to leave (this was meant as a means of protection for their wives). But Jesus makes it clear in the NT that "God hates divorce" and always has, only allowing for it in the OT because "men's hearts were hard". God 'allowing' for divorce in the OT never meant He approved of it, even though He had Moses make provision for it. Jesus stops this practice in the NT and makes it clear that divorce for any other reason than marital unfaithfulness is sinful.

I think we discussed all of this pretty thoroughly here at CF within the last couple of years. Let me see if I can find that thread and I'll get back to you.

There is no evidence, at least to me, that the rules regarding polygamy are only from Moses. Using your argument, all of the commandments can otherwise be disregarded

You continue:

I think you may get a little push-back from our Jewish friends about that (IOW, that Israel in the time of Moses followed Torah, but that modern Jews follow Talmud instead).The Talmud, Jewish "oral" tradition (now written down), is said to have been established at the same time the Torah was written by Moses. Hopefully our Jewish friends can help with this as well

Yours and His,
David

That was my personal experience, having been a Messianic for some time, years ago.

St_Worm2 · Nov 10, 2015

ananda said:
That was my personal experience, having been a Messianic for some time, years ago.

Oh, you mean Talmud over Torah, not that your Messianic church was involved in plural marriages, right?

ananda · Nov 10, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
Oh, you mean Talmud over Torah, not that your Messianic church was involved in plural marriages, right?

Correct.

Boyfriend is leaving b/c of his "new" christian views.

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