Salvation
- Thread starter BrokenWarrior
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Poor Beggar
Everything is everywhere.
Bottom-line is we have to believe.
Of course this discussion turned into a Calvinism/Arminianism debate. No one is ever going to get someone to stop believing in their own direct experiences.
Calvinists have obviously never had an experience of choosing to act for God so Arminians are never going to get them to believe it's possible.
Arminians have obviously never had an experience in which they weren't volitionally involved in acting for God so Calvinists are never going to talk them out of it.
Nobody can get someone to stop believing what they have DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED.
Of course this discussion turned into a Calvinism/Arminianism debate. No one is ever going to get someone to stop believing in their own direct experiences.
Calvinists have obviously never had an experience of choosing to act for God so Arminians are never going to get them to believe it's possible.
Arminians have obviously never had an experience in which they weren't volitionally involved in acting for God so Calvinists are never going to talk them out of it.
Nobody can get someone to stop believing what they have DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED.
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Skala
I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
False, Arminians were not volitionally involved in their own regeneration, as it is monergistic.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
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A bump for my friend who is struggling, yet is starting to see.
You know who you are.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
-Ephesians 2:8
-Faithfully Yours
You know who you are.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
-Ephesians 2:8
-Faithfully Yours
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This is where my confusion lies when it comes to Salvation.
met·a·noi·a
ˌmetəˈnoiə/
noun
- change in one's way of life resulting from penitence or spiritual conversion.
Repentance isn't just about changing our mind's about God. It is about changing our lives and following in Jesus footsteps, turning away from sin.
James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This passage, as well as the command to repent, confuses me with regard to how we are saved by faith alone. Jesus commanded us to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbor as ourselves, which basically summed up all of the 10 commandments. And so if we repent and turn away from sin, we turn away from doing things that are wrong and sinful in the eyes of God. But we are still sinners and perfection is impossible for human beings. So what happens when one believes, yet still struggles against sin and commits sin? If we are committing sin we are not repentant because we have not turned away. Even if we confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness, yet go out again next week, or a month from now, and do the same thing, that shows we haven't repented, does it not? And so how can we be saved if we have not fully repented? And yet no one can fully repent because no one but Jesus is perfect. So HOW does this work in terms of salvation?
I am also confused by this passage is 1 Corinthians 6:9:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…
The ten commandments were given by God to seemingly act as the be all and end all of what comprises sin, and the commandments given by Jesus to love God and love our neighbor also act as a summary of the 10 commandments. Yet the passage in 1 Corinthians includes things that are not part of the 10 commandments. Homosexuality, fornication, and drunkenness are also listed as reasons one would not inherit God's Kingdom, so why are they not part of the commandments? These sins are not harming ones neighbor in any way, nor are they disrespecting or not loving God. While they may be harmful to the individual and advisable not to do, if they were so important as to exclude one from God's Kingdom, why would they have not been included as part of God's Commandments?
Just curious.
Sometimes the Bible can be very contradictory, or seem as if it is. And my mind twirls sometimes when I read it, trying to make sense of it all and get my understanding right. Any explanations for these questions are very welcomed!
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98cwitr
Lord forgive me
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If you read Hebrews 11, you will see that by faith the faithful DO something. Faith generates works. Paul doesn't contradict James, they are looking at it from two angles, and Paul is looking at it from an OT Mosaic perspective. Paul also tells us about the Law of the Spirit, which we are under! Romans 8:2. When Paul talks about "the law," what he's talking about is the 613 commandments in the Mitzvot, not all laws for all times. We are still under the Law of the Spirit, which we know by our fruits.
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Here we go putting the cart before the horse. If one has already been born of God, that is the end of the matter is it not? So this too is false. No, the repenting and believe comes BEFORE the New Birth, and we could provide ample Scriptures to prove that.
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Avid
A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...
There are a number of things that God does for a sinner in bringing him to Christ. Alphabetically, they include:
1- Adoption
2- Atonement
3- Conversion
4- Forgiveness
5- Justification
6- Reconciliation
7- Redemption
8- Regeneration
We can argue the order they happen, but scripture shows they happen.
1- Adoption
2- Atonement
3- Conversion
4- Forgiveness
5- Justification
6- Reconciliation
7- Redemption
8- Regeneration
We can argue the order they happen, but scripture shows they happen.
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nonaeroterraqueous
Nonexistent Member
From the standpoint of God, who has always existed, the difference in timing between any two of those events is miniscule to the point of insignificance.
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- "Literally, it is a Greek word meaning“change of mind”. Yet the full meaning is somewhat more. In the New Testament, the word metanoia is often translated as “repentance”. But this kind of repentance is not about regret or guilt or shame; it implies making a decision to turn around, to face a new direction."
http://www.metanoia.org/light.htm
One of just many sites and sources that back this meaning up.
It's deciding in your mind to Confess and believe in Jesus.
It's like this...
God will judge us by the 10 Commandments on judgment day.
If we've broken any of them we MUST go to hell as payment,because God is righteous and must punish sinners.
But God also Loves us. So He became The Sacrifice for our sin.
Imagine it like this:
God is the judge,and Jesus is your attorney.
Jesus walks in and says,"Your Honor...Yes,My client is guilty,but see that I have paid his/her debt."
God can now legally and righteously dismiss your case as closed.
All you have to do is meet Christ's conditions...
He says His conditions is that we believe that He will make good on His promise of Salvation.
He's saying,I will save you. Do you believe me?
You've just gotta believe that Believing in Christ's sacrifice is enough.
God bless,
-Your Brother In Christ
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Demons believe Jesus is the son of God to but will never be saved, you must surrender to God, believing is only one step you must then accept and surrender, or see your need for Jesus and give your self to Him.
You here phrases in movies like he sold his soul to the devil, but you don't hear he sold his soul to God. In fact you are selling your sould to God and God has bought it with His blood and Life. Kind of puts a different look on it huh?
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Can a dead man bring himself to life? Eph.2:1 Did Lazarus give himself life before he answered the call of the Lord Jesus? Did the dry bones in Ezekiel get up on their own?
Man is described as being dead in sin. Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13 Adam died the day that he sinned just as God had promised. Gen. 2:17
A dead man can do nothing especially give himself life. You can preach to dead men all you desire but they will never respond because they cannot. John 5:25, John 6:26, John 6:44-47,6:63,65. The Lord says clearly that unless you have been born again you cannot see the kingdom of God much less be a part of it. John 3:3-8
Both John the Apostle and John the Baptist speak of having life given by God in the past tense coming before faith. John :36, 1John 5:1
If life comes after repentance and faith then it is logically and legally a reward, or wage, for doing something that it is clearly impossible to do.
Your only option is to redefine what the new birth is.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
We don't sell ourselves to Christ He Redeemed us by His blood. He bought us out of the prison house and paid the debt to justice for us. Your analogy is way off and very misleading.
The picture is the servant who has his ear bored and becomes a servant to his master willingly. He became a servant not because he sold himself but because the Master bought him.
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Avid
A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...
When we see it all as being in His hands, totally, we see that if one happens before the other, or the LORD takes half of our lifetime between any subset of these, it is not all so bad, nor is it against scripture. It is His salvation, we are His to do with as He pleases, and our lives are going to conform to the image of His dear Son. I know the LORD did many things for me, and I felt His leading at times in my life, as He directed me away from trouble and certain death at times. Still, it was not till I was about 30 He directed me to understand Him better.
I was very confused by all the error I was taught in my youth, and thought these things were not so important. I took a bad attitude toward the law of God, and the requirements taught us by the LORD, Himself, and His Apostles. No one seemed to understand, nor seemed to be able to explain much of anything from scripture without self-contradiction, and contradiction of the few things I was sure were true from reading scripture! I eventually had a humbling, and enlightening time of a few years to get most of it straight. I still learn how to better understand, or how to understand things I didn't know, but am not at all inclined to return to earlier versions of the error I had been taught!
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Wrong type of Belief.
It doesn't mean,"Change your mind and believe in God's existence."
"For even the demons believe,AND TREMBLE."
It's,"Changing your mind about God and choosing to Believe that He will save you if you simply Believe He will."
You choose to acknowledge you need Christ and believe what He allows you to Believe.
Seek Truth,
-Your Brother In Christ
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"Logically" no one should receive the gift of eternal life, since "logically" no one deserves it. But the biblical conditions to receive salvation are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Evidently you prefer not to believe what Christ and His apostles taught. Please notice carefully what Peter says in Acts 2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So what comes first, repentance or the gift of the Holy Ghost? And without the gift of the Holy Ghost, the New Birth is impossible.
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98cwitr
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"Life" has forever been apparent, for the Lord knows all things. Before you or I were created, He knew both the saved and the damned for all time, and still created both. To say the saved were ever not saved is a worldly view, a human view, which cannot see clearly at all. Paul says "While we were still sinners..." that does not negate the salvation was ever apparent for those saved.
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