The Promise to Abraham...

Jeff Brodsky said:

Those promises were conditional... based on obedience... the key word in Deuteronomy is "if" and they had moments of obedience but mostly they weren't... therefore they are under the curses... the only way the words of Jesus can be fulfilled was the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D... since that time. Israel and the Jewish people have continued to be disobedient and still has not turned to Jesus... and before you write. me off for being an antisemitic... i am a Jew... like my father before me... and his father before him... for untold generations I was born an orthodox Jew... raised in the traditions of my Father's... Bar mitzvah at age 13... attended yeshiva... received Smicha/ordination... and now a believer... no longer bound to a tradition that has served its usefullness and needs to be discarded...

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I was born into this too... We really aren't that far apart. But I'm not talking about the promises in the Torah persay, I'm talking about the promises made by God to the prophets. Namely, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. There were statements and promises made that have not been fulfilled yet. They were not conditional, but statements made by God. Like.."I will" and "you will".. Not conditional on anything.

Isaiah 66:13-23
13 As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 You shall see, and your heart shall rejoice; your bones shall flourish like the grass; and the hand of the LORD shall be known to his servants, and he shall show his indignation against his enemies.

15 “For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many. 17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. 18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is comingto gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,

19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD. 22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

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Even in the new heavens and earth the offspring/nation/people of Israel remains.

Jeremiah 23:1-8 The Righteous Branch
1 “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. 2 Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: “You have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the LORD. 3 Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply. 4 I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD.

5 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The LORD is our righteousness.’

7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’

8 but ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the offspring of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.’ Then they shall dwell in their own land.”

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In Messiah's days Judah is saved and Israel lives securely in the Land. It is HE who brings this about.

Ezekiel 11:14-20 Israel’s New Heart and Spirit
14 And the word of the LORD came to me: 15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the LORD; to us this land is given for a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.‘

17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

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When has this happened corporately for Israel? Regathered to the land and given a new spirit, a heart that follows God's ways internally. All our detestable things and abominations removed. Are we there yet?

Ezekiel 20:33-44 The Lord will restore Israel
33 “As I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord GOD. 37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

39 “As for you, O house of Israel, thus says the Lord GOD: Go serve every one of you his idols, now and hereafter, if you will not listen to me; but my holy name you shall no more profane with your gifts and your idols. 40 “For on my holy mountain, the mountain height of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, there all the house of Israel, all of them, shall serve me in the land. There I will accept them, and there I will require your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your sacred offerings. 41 As a pleasing aroma I will accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered. And I will manifest my holiness among you in the sight of the nations. 42 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the country that I swore to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your deeds with which you have defiled yourselves, and you shall loathe yourselves for all the evils that you have committed. 44 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I deal with you for my name’s sake, not according to your evil ways, nor according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.”

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As a pleasing aroma I will accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered. And I will manifest my holiness among you in the sight of the nations. Has this happened yet? When was Israel been restored like this?

Ezekiel 34:7-16
7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd, and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 Thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require my sheep at their hand and put a stop to their feeding the sheep. No longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

11 “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them with good pasture, and on the mountain heights of Israel shall be their grazing land. There they shall lie down in good grazing land, and on rich pasture they shall feed on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord GOD. 16 I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them in justice.

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Ezekiel 37: 21- 28
21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land.

22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

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Regathered, with one King, our Shepherd, The Lord Almighty, one nation undivided, undefiled, sinless. Saved from all backsliding, cleansed, God's people. Walking in Torah, dwelling in the land forever as children of God under an everlasting covenant. Set in the land, multiplied and having the sanctuary of God forever in our midst. The nations know that God is god 'who sanctifies Israel' WHEN he lives among us forever.

And don't leave out all of Ezekiel 36. God says affirmatively that 'He will do it'. He will restore Israel. The nations await the return of Israel..... So please don't say he now refuses to do this because of our disobedience. Since you mentioned Deut, it's not because of our obedience or lack of obedience he WILL do this.

Not Because of Israel's Righteousness
1 Hear, O Israel. You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky.

2 The people are strong and tall--Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?"

3 But be assured today that the LORD your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the LORD has promised you.

4 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.

5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

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It's never because of our righteousness, it's because God said so, he promised to do it. And his words never come back void.

Lulav said:

"Are you a bunch of antinomians, drooling after your lusts in a blind haze of licentiousness?"
​

Oh, surely that will bring out truthful answers.

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Haven't seen them lie either.

The point I'm trying to make you One Law self-described "Hebraic" folks is really simple but for some reason (that I cannot state here) you feel the curious need to run all of your brethren in Yeshua down in the mud by throwing horrible accusations against them as being "lawless". This is divisive and selfish and embarrassing for your sakes.

*They are NOT "lawless", they just understand the Law different to you.

*They are NOT antinomian- they believe, teach and confess the moral laws (the most important, eternal laws) and they build their polity and liturgy around the rest.

*They are in agreement with Judaism that they are not bound to certain laws- but they still teach those same laws are important and live them out in different ways. This is more than the One Law people can claim- as they have beliefs rejected by every sage before them. I think any agreement between Judaism and the Christians is something to celebrate, not tear down and offend as the One Law folks do.

Now, I know all the OL teachers think that they are perfect law-keepers because they get to celebrate the Jewish parties (read: Festivals/Moedim) but the fact of the matter is that they are breaking the important commandments when they constantly slander their neighbour. I find it interesting that they revel in the easy fun stuff but the moral stuff seems to get a back seat. I recently asked a MG friend of mine to describe the 10 and they didn't explain or understand them nearly as well as a church kid who just passed his catechism.

So, while you guys see the "hapless and dumb" "lawless" Church as off the rails because they don't party on Pesach or welcome in the new month I see the OL teachers as off the rails because they don't teach righteousness.

I know this will really drive you guys crazy with rage and you will just about smash your keyboard to pieces hitting the "report" button but your OL teachers have sinned against His Body by breaking the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor"- clearly one of the Aseret ha-Dibrot. And some of the OL people bring that lashon hara to this forum.

While this commandment first of all prohibits harming another through speech, the wider application also means the opposite- you should speak well of your neighbour and always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The weird thing is that while those OL teachers beat Paul senseless and that is repeated on this forum he clearly understood this commandment better than the OL teachers and applied it properly to keep the peace in the ancient mixed congregations of Yeshua. Rom 14 describes how to live according to this commandment.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

ETC...

Paul's conclusion is perfect:
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath (clearly a prohibition against lashon hara!)

I know that the OL teachers completely re-interpret these verses to mean something beyond the plain reading and the harmonious Jewish/Christian understanding - but they are wrong. If it's not consistent with the ancients and their successors (when faithfully in agreement with the ancients) then they are without authority.

Now I have checked all those threads and heard from both sides...and I think there's a lot of lashon hara here against the Body of Yeshua. Hate the Body and you hate the Head.

ErezY said:

I was born into this too... We really aren't that far apart. But I'm not talking about the promises in the Torah persay, I'm talking about the promises made by God to the prophets. Namely, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. There were statements and promises made that have not been fulfilled yet. They were not conditional, but statements made by God. Like.."I will" and "you will".. Not conditional on anything.


Even in the new heavens and earth the offspring/nation/people of Israel remains.

In Messiah's days Judah is saved and Israel lives securely in the Land. It is HE who brings this about.


When has this happened corporately for Israel? Regathered to the land and given a new spirit, a heart that follows God's ways internally. All our detestable things and abominations removed. Are we there yet?

As a pleasing aroma I will accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered. And I will manifest my holiness among you in the sight of the nations. Has this happened yet? When was Israel been restored like this?



Regathered, with one King, our Shepherd, The Lord Almighty, one nation undivided, undefiled, sinless. Saved from all backsliding, cleansed, God's people. Walking in Torah, dwelling in the land forever as children of God under an everlasting covenant. Set in the land, multiplied and having the sanctuary of God forever in our midst. The nations know that God is god 'who sanctifies Israel' WHEN he lives among us forever.

And don't leave out all of Ezekiel 36. God says affirmatively that 'He will do it'. He will restore Israel. The nations await the return of Israel..... So please don't say he now refuses to do this because of our disobedience. Since you mentioned Deut, it's not because of our obedience or lack of obedience he WILL do this.

It's never because of our righteousness, it's because God said so, he promised to do it. And his words never come back void.

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Oh man, so good!

Jeff Brodsky said:

I was born an orthodox Jew... raised in the traditions of my Father's...

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Really? This article about you, although old, seems to indicate the opposite:

http://www.jta.org/1995/08/24/archi...tween-two-worlds-a-jew-struggles-for-way-back


"He had been there several months when he decided that because he was preaching about Judaism and did not know very much about it, he should study the religion of his birth.

He approached area rabbis to see whether they would teach him. "

Jeff Brodsky said:
I attended yeshiva... received Smicha/ordination...

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Does becoming a Southern Baptist Minister or allowing oneself to be called "rabbi" indicate one has "attended
yeshiva....received smicha"?

From the article:
"He later converted to Christianity through an evangelical Christian group and went on to become a Southern Baptist minister.

He also opened up a school, the Center for Judaic Studies, with a Christian friend and allowed people to call him “rabbi,” which sparked great controversy in the Denver area.
“I have a beard and look like a rabbi, so that’s what people called me,” he said."



I'm just really confused about the apparent contradictions.

ChavaK said:

Really? This article about you, although old, seems to indicate the opposite:

http://www.jta.org/1995/08/24/archi...tween-two-worlds-a-jew-struggles-for-way-back


"He had been there several months when he decided that because he was preaching about Judaism and did not know very much about it, he should study the religion of his birth.

He approached area rabbis to see whether they would teach him. "



Does becoming a Southern Baptist Minister or allowing oneself to be called "rabbi" indicate one has "attended
yeshiva....received smicha"?

From the article:
"He later converted to Christianity through an evangelical Christian group and went on to become a Southern Baptist minister.

He also opened up a school, the Center for Judaic Studies, with a Christian friend and allowed people to call him “rabbi,” which sparked great controversy in the Denver area.
“I have a beard and look like a rabbi, so that’s what people called me,” he said."



I'm just really confused about the apparent contradictions.

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I asked, but he never answered me.

Lulav said:

Interesting bio you have there, I am wondering how an Orthodox Jew found Jesus, are you saying you are an ordained Rabbi?

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That is not to say that he stated anything disingenuous, I think he has had a long road of self discovery and I for one will not condemn him for it.

I think it sad when Jews reject other Jews just because they don't believe the same this forum is not for doing so for those born Jewish.

Lulav said:

That is not to say that he stated anything disingenuous, I think he has had a long road of self discovery and I for one will not condemn him for it.

I think it sad when Jews reject other Jews just because they don't believe the same this forum is not for doing so for those born Jewish.

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We don't know the details, so should be careful but it does make me nervous when people about certain things without qualification. The impression I got from the post was that he was an ex-Orthodox Rabbi (yet with poor grammar?) and I would have liked a bit more of a qualification.

It seems like he's been on the road to making t'shuvah so perhaps we should not make hasty comments.

ContraMundum said:

We don't know the details, so should be careful but it does make me nervous when people about certain things without qualification. The impression I got from the post was that he was an ex-Orthodox Rabbi (yet with poor grammar?) and I would have liked a bit more of a qualification.

It seems like he's been on the road to making t'shuvah so perhaps we should not make hasty comments.

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Exactly

ContraMundum said:

We don't know the details .....and I would have liked a bit more of a qualification.
.....so perhaps we should not make hasty comments.

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Agreed......however I think it is very important that people do not misrepresent themselves or things.