American Businesses Penalized for Refusing Service to Gay People

Tree of Life said:

God's word.

God's word.

God.

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Tree of Life said:

God's word.

God's word.

God.

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What did you mean by this then:

"If you're referring to US Law, Christians (and all others) are not free to break it. They will incur the curse of the law if they do so."

You appear to contradict yourself again. You stated you understand that God's law does not define US law, but then when asked how should laws be determined to be; unjust and or abolished, you refer back to God's word. This is what is commonly known as; a circular argument.

So, who decides what "God's law" is????

Tree of Life said:

God.

Not only are they allowed to break it. In many cases they are commanded by God to break it.



Agreed.



I disagree with your polemical.

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You are full of contradictions today.

You say above, Christians are allowed to break the law and in many cases, "commanded" to break it. Yet, just a few posts ago, you said this:

"If you're referring to US Law, Christians (and all others) are not free to break it. They will incur the curse of the law if they do so."

Tree of Life said:

...Not only are they allowed to break it. In many cases they are commanded by God to break it..

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Could you please elaborate on the specifics of how/when God commands someone to break a law?

Is this command communicated via burning bush, cell phone, or stone tablet?

Or, is this just an excuse used by a bigot to engage in discriminatory practices contrary to the law and then run under God's skirt for shelter citing "God told me to do it!"

Can't you see that hatred and discrimination is just wrong. It is. I've peppered this cite with my views on this matter and I will do so again.

How about we just treat all homosexuals just as we treat others from other religions. We can be polite and respectful and "love thy enemy" and then when we all die and find ourselves at Judgement Day we can let God sort it all out. Why don't we just do that?

Tree of Life said:

I disagree with your polemical.

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Color me surprised

Tree of Life said:

Again, "free" implies no consequence. There are, of course, consequences for breaking US Law. Therefore Christians are not entirely "free" to break it. They are, however, justified by God to break laws that are unjust.



God.

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God decides what his law is, ok.

How does God communicate his law to people?

Tree of Life said:

Scripture most typically.

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Who has the final say on how this scripture is interpreted?

bhsmte said:

Who has the final say on how this scripture is interpreted?

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And there's the rub...

My interpretation is to simply "Love thy enemy" and treat them with basic respect that I would treat any other human being and then come Judgment Day God can deal with them.

However, there are some Christians who feel that they need to hate and discriminate against gays while here on Earth as I guess they can't be bothered to wait till Judgment day. They would rather pass judgment all on their own here on Earth. Not to mention they reserve this special treatment "just" for gays. Not the other sins, not the other sinners, not even those who worship false gods and actively recruit others to worship false gods. No, just gays...

JonahRR said:

I think it's important to get the full story. Here is another perspective on this issue:

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ng_you_heard_on_the_sweet_cakes_case_is_false

Oregon has a law that you cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation, and this couple's business practices broke that law. It's more simple, and less shocking and terrifying than some news outlets have made it out to be.

There was definitely a more peaceful, more loving, and equally righteous way out of this for this couple. They aren't in this situation just because they are Christians with Christian beliefs. They were also un-neighborly to their potential customers and disregarded state authority.

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Thanks for the link. I heard about this story, but never fully understood both sides. I think I do now.

As for thoughts:
Yes. I am in construction. I was asked to design (engineer the building services) a mosque. People said, don't do it, because of this and this and this and you are a Christian (I was then). I (live by business is business) gave them a fair tender, they accepted and later gave me a horde of non-mosque projects. We are not friends, spiritually we are from different planets, but we (could) can do business together.
OK, I don't know how to bake a cake, but if I am in the cake baking business, I am in the cake baking business and not in the preaching business.

Tree of Life said:

For Christians Scripture is law.

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May wanna check what scripture actually says about that one https://bible.org/seriespage/11-submission-civil-authorities-1-peter-213-17

Tree of Life said:

If you're referring to US Law, Christians (and all others) are not free to break it. They will incur the curse of the law if they do so.

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They are free to break the law. They are not free from the consequences of that law. As the OP bakers are discovering, and now complaining about.

Hank said:

Thanks for the link. I heard about this story, but never fully understood both sides. I think I do now.

As for thoughts:
Yes. I am in construction. I was asked to design (engineer the building services) a mosque. People said, don't do it, because of this and this and this and you are a Christian (I was then). I (live by business is business) gave them a fair tender, they accepted and later gave me a horde of non-mosque projects. We are not friends, spiritually we are from different planets, but we (could) can do business together.
OK, I don't know how to bake a cake, but if I am in the cake baking business, I am in the cake baking business and not in the preaching business.

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This really deserves a bump! Well said.

Tree of Life said:

Again, "free" implies no consequence. There are, of course, consequences for breaking US Law. Therefore Christians are not entirely "free" to break it. They are, however, justified by God to break laws that are unjust.

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Now, the judicial system doesn´t have the time to wait until a person will have proven that the god of their beliefs exists and shares their idea what is just and unjust.
Thus, if breaking the law for religious reasons will get them exactly between the rock and the hard place these people find themselves in.
After all, the 9/11 guys believed to be on divine mission, as well.
Not sure how you think we should handle these issues if not in the way we do it now: not accepting religious convictions for an excuse.

Tree of Life said:

Thoughts?

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I don't think that there should be a legal penalty for following your conscience, especially in a case like this. The bakery should have been legally free to reject the request, especially considering that it's easy enough to go to another bakery, or even to bake one's own wedding cake.

However, customers are also free to take their business elsewhere if they don't like what that particular bakery is doing. Boycotting is a reasonable response.

(Note: If the company in question is responsible for necessities of life, such as electricity, I can see the government stepping in and saying that they can't simply deny that service on anything other than financial grounds.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

Regardless of the story, I think Christian churches and business should have the right to refuse service if it goes against the religious beliefs. I am not hateful to gays, but the society we live in now is pulling away from God. You simply can't say you believe in biblical marriages publicly without backlash and people labeling you as a bigot. Further more, it's sad some churches and Christians now accept homosexuality as natural and normal.

The_Gaurdian87 said:

Regardless of the story, I think Christian churches and business should have the right to refuse service if it goes against the religious beliefs. I am not hateful to gays, but the society we live in now is pulling away from God. You simply can't say you believe in biblical marriages publicly without backlash and people labeling you as a bigot.

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Sure you can. I believe in Biblical marriages. No one's calling me a bigot, but I said it publicly.

Further more, it's sad some churches and Christians now accept homosexuality as natural and normal.

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Why's it sad? If the conscience of the decision makers of those churches so convicts them, what would you rather they do?

I listened yesterday to the July 4 message from a UMJC congregation that said they will no longer perform marriages for anyone. They will have a "worship service" to celebrate a couple coming together but will sign no paperwork and will not rent the facilities to anyone. (you have to do that at the court house now) Members in good standing can use the facilities for a donation.

That is reasonable I suppose. They are doing it to try to avoid a lawsuit.