Can you explain why what Jesus said was good advice or sound moral teaching?

hippo said:

'Loving one another' is great ..... not sure how you can love God though???

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It should come naturally to you, if you are a loving person, when you begin to understand, realise, comprehend what He has done for us (you, me, them).

The full impact of His sacrifice for us is really distracted by the emphasis Christians place on the cross.

So you know that every time someone suffers, they cry toward God "why don't you help me?", "why have you allowed this?", and do you think that He doesn't cry too? Do you know what it's like to be that person who cries to God? Do you know how hard it is to forgive? Can you picture what it is like for God to be immensely aware of that grief every time it happens? Do you think He isn't? Remember what Jesus says in Matthew 25 "When you were doing it to them, you were doing it to me". Because He loves us, He grieves when we suffer.

Think about that happening through all ages past, present and future, and then consider the amount of hurt He has had. Then ask why. I really do not know why. I mean, the majority of people will not even buy a box of matches for a homeless person to light his smoke. It only costs them 50c, but they aren't prepared to pay that cost for him, when they despise him for being so unable to look after himself.

Do you know though, how much delight it gives that person who needs the smoke, when they don't have any way to light it, for someone simply buying them a 50c box of matches?

Then think about this: the amount that He has paid, the cost of grieving for hundreds of billions of human lives (then consider those non-human lives who also cry to Him in anguish), and He has made all of that payment for what? For one person to have life? For every person to have life? Scriptures say that Jesus said "as many as would believe in him". So even if there is only one (which we know there isn't, and we assume He must have expected before even beginning), He did it for that person.

If you are one of those people, then you can consider He has been very generous to pay such a cost so that you can have life. Because His grief over the total sum of suffering throughout the entire history of life, is the cost of life for all who have received it. Hopefully, if you are able to absorb this, you will be able to realise that really, you should love Him honestly because it is not right to regard Him in an opposite way.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

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Thanks for this, I would like to use a translation in modern English, as I don't speak that language naturally, and consequently it is difficult to understand.

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+12:47-48&version=NIV

Could you please provide your exegesis on these two verse compared to the following, as the context you have provided it (to suggest Jesus has not come to judge) appears to be a contradiction to what is stated in Matthew 25:31-33:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+25:31-33&version=NIV

oi_antz said:

Thanks for this, I would like to use a translation in modern English, as I don't speak that language naturally, and consequently it is difficult to understand.

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+12:47-48&version=NIV

Could you please provide your exegesis on these two verse compared to the following, as the context you have provided it (to suggest Jesus has not come to judge) appears to be a contradiction to what is stated in Matthew 25:31-33:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+25:31-33&version=NIV

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I will try to provide a more meaningful answer but I need to get to bed. Work starts early.

However if you are waiting for an answer you will notice that there is a present and future tense, and that is your answer. Jesus does not judge now, but he will in the future. I think that what is being referred to is present day judgement. If there is any [as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira] it is of the Holy Spirit and may not be to eternal condemnation [see also Paul's comment about "many weak and sickly and many sleep" 1 Cor 11?], but Christ does not pass eternal judgment at this time. Today is the day of salvation and not of judgment. It is the time of the proclamation of good news.

Perhaps that will help.

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

I will try to provide a more meaningful answer but I need to get to bed. Work starts early.

However if you are waiting for an answer you will notice that there is a present and future tense, and that is your answer. Jesus does not judge now, but he will in the future. I think that what is being referred to is present day judgement. If there is any [as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira] it is of the Holy Spirit and may not be to eternal condemnation [see also Paul's comment about "many weak and sickly and many sleep" 1 Cor 11?], but Christ does not pass eternal judgment at this time. Today is the day of salvation and not of judgment. It is the time of the proclamation of good news.

Perhaps that will help.

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Thank you, I had viewed it that way too. I wonder then whether this might be what hippo was confused about, because it doesn't seem confusing when viewed with the understanding of purpose of Jesus' first appearence to the world and the next.

If you want to "get" it, you must ask "Why would Jesus make such a harsh statement?"

Also. you originally asked for examples of Jesus giving good advice; you didn't give the condition Jesus had to sound gentle.

hippo said:

I think the example of the visual metaphor of hanging off a cliff to persuade someone to decide quickly seems like manipulation through fear. If I remember rightly Jesus said something about counting the cost, which would suggest a more thought out response.

'Loving one another' is great ..... not sure how you can love God though???

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the metaphor is indeed apt, considering that no one knows when they will die.
I think that most people, if they see someone in trouble will try to offer aid to the best of their ability.
The person in trouble doesn't have the luxury of counting the cost because the choice is obvious to them: either they stay where they are, or they try to get out of the trouble they are in.

Think of the time when the disciple were out all night in their boat and they caught no fish. Jesus appeared to them, and told them to cast their nets on the right side of the boat.
So the choice was between no fish or possible fish.

If you have nothing, the possibility of having something is a pretty easy decision to make.
Just like the person hanging off that cliff, if they don't make the decision to grab for the rope, then it's a sure thing that gravity will have them in the end, and they will have lost their chance at a good ending.

The verse about counting the cost was designed for a different situation, where there were multiple possibilities and also multiple outcomes available.

Loving God is actually very easy and not at all complicated. God's love language is obedience.

hippo said:

Isn't


But if it grieves God (God as described by the bible) when people suffer, then why does he allow so many vulnerable people like children to go through so much? In addition, many Christians would still say they suffer after they believe, in fact some say that they go through times when their faith is really tested and others lose their faith.

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There probably is not a single answer that will be sufficient for every example of this, and whatever answer I do produce in an attempt to this will be limited by my imagination. So keep that in mind, as you look at specific examples of this happening, the reasons could be quite different. Do you remember that St Paul said God has chosen foolishness to confound the wise? Do you remember when he said this wrt the cross being thought of as foolish by Greeks? It is just because we are human, we have a very poor sense of wisdom when it is compared to His. Some examples that my imagination can produce on the spot here, it is possible that He wants the ones who suffer to develop character. It is possible that He wants them to use their experiences to identify others at risk and to have an understanding that can help prevent someone else from falling into sin (remember, the seed falling on good soil produced hundreds of times what was sown). Maybe he wants the sinner to experience sin so that he can truly be humbled. You can see, there is a bunch of possible ways that it can be viewed as profitable, or beneficial overall. (Not suggesting it always is, but that you should have some hope toward being able to understand sometimes).

I'm just rereading what you have written - that 'His grief over the total sum of suffering' ...... 'is the cost of life'. I'm sorry, I just don't understand why God couldn't intervene in a way to prevent more suffering?

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Why would/wouldn't He? How would He? Two questions that your question requires.

You are now the third person to have said such a thing to me in about a week on this forum. I am wondering whether you have an idea in mind, about how He can intervene to prevent more suffering. Can you please describe what you have in mind?

Note too, that you missed the point.

I remember reading a verse that says that God creates evil as well as good. I know this is wandering from the OP topic, but I'm just mentioning it since it comes to mind.

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You might find it on Google with the words "create calamity". If I remember correctly though, what is being said in that verse does not actually equate to God making evil. Jesus Christ: "God is good". St Paul: "No temptation is ever from God".

If God is perfect, then this is starting to make me question how he could make people who are so faulty (or wicked as he says). I know the story in Genesis, but its hard to think that God would wait so many thousands of years before sending Jesus to give hope, and then for people to have to wait at least 2000 more years.

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He had to wait though, because it took time for Israel's lineage to become enslaved by Egypt, then it took time for the kingdom of God to be corrupted. Likewise, it has taken time for technology to advance to now mankind can create the image of the beast, and almost can perform miracles with God-like power.

.. But I am curious, because it doesn't come to mind, what the scriptural basis for saying God is perfect. Also, does that scriptural basis describe the same thing as you mean by saying it?

hippo said:

Well to be honest I don't understand why Jesus would make such a harsh and literal statement, so I don't see why it's good advice.

(Also, since you mentioned about not sinning in your thoughts - it's known now from people who have OCD and from 'mindfulness' that people who specifically try not to think of something (like say a red bus) might find that it comes back to their mind even more. )

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As the awareness gives me personal discomfort, the truth is that Jesus means sin is dangerous and must be abandoned at all costs.

hippo said:

hi oi_antz, I did read it that way. Those scriptures and others like it, seem so apocalyptic.

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OK, I think I have read you properly now. Yes I think it is definitely right to say He is a scary character. Remember the verse in Revelation where He returns? Everyone scatters, tries to hide (not a single person doesn't), but no rock can be found to hide behind. This is why: we conceal our sins from each other and even from ourselves. There is more to His character than that though.

hippo said:

Well to be honest I don't understand why Jesus would make such a harsh and literal statement, so I don't see why it's good advice.

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Maybe I should better understand your definition for "good advice", since it appears you believe good advice is never harsh. So, is good advice ever harsh?