Absent from the body and someplace else !

Smoky · Mar 5, 2015

2 Corinthians 4:16 (NKJV)
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

2 Corinthians 5:1 (NKJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:4 (NKJV)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 (NKJV)
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

How can a person be absent from one place and not be somewhere else? Our state of being "absent from the body" still seems to be a state we can be "pleasing to the Lord" in. 2 Cor. 5:9. How could that be true if we are totally dead and non-existant. We seem to have an "inner man" being renewed day by day even though our "outward man" is perishing. 2 Cor. 5:16.
This outward man seems to be a tent or earthly house the inner man lives in before receiving the heavenly house not made with hands. 2 Cor. 5:1. The intermediate state is the state of being unclothed which is less desirable than the state of being "further clothed" after receiving the heavenly house. How could Paul strive to be pleasing to the Lord while absent from his body if he didn't even exist during that state?

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

Smoky said:
2 Corinthians 4:16 (NKJV)
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

2 Corinthians 5:1 (NKJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:4 (NKJV)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 (NKJV)
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

How can a person be absent from one place and not be somewhere else? Our state of being "absent from the body" still seems to be a state we can be "pleasing to the Lord" in. 2 Cor. 5:9. How could that be true if we are totally dead and non-existant. We seem to have an "inner man" being renewed day by day even though our "outward man" is perishing. 2 Cor. 5:16.

This outward man seems to be a tent or earthly house the inner man lives in before receiving the heavenly house not made with hands. 2 Cor. 5:1. The intermediate state is the state of being unclothed which is less desirable than the state of being "further clothed" after receiving the heavenly house. How could Paul strive to be pleasing to the Lord while absent from his body if he didn't even exist during that state?

Brother, repent...

The Claim:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Let's take a look at the immediate surrounding Context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2 Corinthians 5:9

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 2 Corinthians 5:12

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 2 Corinthians 5:13

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:14

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:15

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, even abusing as Peter said many would [2 Peter 3:16, "... wrest[ing] as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."]. Let's consider what Paul does say:

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many oft imply in their speech, or even directly]:

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"

The substitution of the and with is is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read is, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:

To be absent from the body IS [=] to be present with the Lord, like unto the mathematical equation 2 + [and] 2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word kai [and] means all the difference here.

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is "then" that those which died in the Lord shall be present with the Lord, as it is said it is then, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection...

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17

If we had immortal souls that never die, what then is swallowed up of life? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trump".

Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4], not individually as we die, fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth.

In fact the whole reason that there is a second death and the death of Sleep, is because of the Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World. If it weren't for Christ Jesus, all of humanity would have been destroyed in Adam right then and there.

Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:

Thy dead men shall live,together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28

Paul clearly says:

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8

That word appearing is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

[2] Notice also another very key to this text, which is in 2 Corinthians 5:5,7, speaking about "faith", and earnest[ness] that is waiting for the reality of the Resurrection, not of actual "sight" or of obtaining immediately upon one's death.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

Paul knew that he would not enter into Heaven, until his resurrection, which would not happen in his own day of dying, but in the Day of the LORD,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind... as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2;p

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Peter says the same in all his Epistles, which we may yet come to later.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

[3] Paul will not contradict himself, and also in the light of:

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35

For Paul knew the Scriptures:

His breath goeth forth, here turneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himselfhis spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15

They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:16

One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. Job 21:23

And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. Job 21:25

They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26

For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Job 21:28

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30

Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. Job 21:32

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, “naked”, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being “clothed upon” [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Acts 17:18

Notice that he did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the “wisdom of this world”.

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

Yet Paul preached the Resurrection:

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Acts 24:21

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:12

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Corinthians 15:13

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:21

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:42

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians 3:10

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:35

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

This is even confirmed outside of the Scripture by others, notice:

Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho:

"... Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.2260 For I choose to follow not men or mens doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],2261 and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,2262 Galilæans, Hellenists,2263 Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. ...

2261 i.e., resurrection. ..." [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXXX [80]] - http://www.ccel.org/...ii.iv.lxxx.html

Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's paganistic teachings:

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - Annihilationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William Tyndale (1484-1536),

English Bible translator and Martyr

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue: The Supper of the Lord After the ... - William Tyndale - Google Books

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118

John Frith (1503-33),

associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

Martin Luther (1493-1546)

German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760

George Wishart (1500-1546),

Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern - Johann Lorenz Mosheim - Google Books

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography - William Thomas Whitley - Google Books

John Milton (1608-1674),

"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - The Prose Works of John Milton ...: With a Preface, Preliminary Remarks, and ... - John Milton, James Augustus St. John - Google Books

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church,
Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.
It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.
It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.
It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.
It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.
Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.
Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.
Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.
It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.
It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.
It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.
It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism. - Heresy

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

Martin Luther:

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis Enarrationes in Genesin, 15351545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (14831546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96] - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elsewhere Luther states that:

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This current house [mortal] and that one to come at the resurrection [immortal, swallowing up death with eternal life], and there is no house [except the grave; Job 4:19, Job 17:13; Isaiah 26:19; Nahum 3:19; etc] inbetween, only death [unclothed], asleep, awaiting the resurrection.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

When did Paul himself expect that to be? At "that day", being "the last day", even at "the last trump", at the very "appearing" [this word is used of Christ's Second Advent/Coming] of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Glory, coming in Power and Glory:

For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:9

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

And again,

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51

When?

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

Paul knew what even Job stated:

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God. Job 19:26

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold... Job 19:27;p

For notice the question that Job asks:

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7

Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8

[Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10

Well when "man dieth... where [is] he?"

And how does he answer?:

[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11

So too, we "fail" and "decayeth" and "drieth up" and are returned unto "dust"...

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

...hide me in the grave, ... keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, ... appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13;p [The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues]

If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee... Job 14:15;p

Job knew he would die, return unto dust, and 'wait' in the grave, in death, unconscious, knowing nothing, until Jesus called him forth in the resurrection "at the last day" when the "trump of God" shall sound, and then he would answer that call to immortal life.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 5, 2015

[4] Let us see a similar passage in Romans 8, in which Paul explains that we are "waiting" for our freedom from the "bondage of corruption" [our current mortal body], when we "at the last trump" shall be "clothed" with that immortal one, the only 'inbetween' would to be the grave, which is death, asleep, without consciousness, in the grave, awaiting as Job would be and still is, etc:

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:21

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

[5] In Genesis 2:7:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

We see how mankind was created a living soul, by being made of two things, which combined, made a third whole [dust of the earth [lifeless] + breath of life of God breathed into the nostrils = living soul, the whole living being], and understanding that, helps us all to further understand what happen in [1st] death.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

The only reason there is even these deaths [plural] at all, instead of instant destruction to man, is because of Christ Jesus, the promise of His life and sacrifice, our surety from the very beginning:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

Paul knew this, why then don't most Christians? Because the doctrine of the 'immortal soul/spirit' is one of the two main pillars of the doctrines of the devil, for it allows him access to almost anyone on earth through various means of deception. That is why God forbids spiritism. necromancy, etc, for it not only denies the death of Jesus Christ, but also prepares one for the deceptions of satan through false messengers of 'light', working in those with 'familiar spirits', and so those which disregard God's warnings, even as King Saul, will perish in their willful disobedience and willful 'ignorance', for God will not hear their prayers [Proverbs 28:9], and so will allow them to turn unto seducing spirits and giving heed to doctrines of devils [1 Timothy 4:1].

Smoky · Mar 5, 2015

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many oft imply in their speech, or even directly]:
"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of that. However the state existing between the death of our physical body and the resurrection of our new body is that state referred to as being absent, without a body. Being absent doesn't mean non-existance does it? It could mean being in the presense of Christ at this time or later at the resurrection, it simply doesn't say. One must determine whether it's implied or not. Paul said he could be present or absent and still be pleasing to the Lord. Where is he absent at? Why would the state of being unclothed ( without a body) be a concern for someone who is totally unconscious?

Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, “naked”, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being “clothed upon” [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:

How can you be "desirous to be without anything for any period of time if you are unconscious? What is it that is being "clothed upon"? What you don't have during this incomplete state is a new body.

neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

Can you really take this at face value and say they they have no portion "for ever". That's saying they have no life after death at all. Wasn't Solomon giving the opinion of what would be true without having any faith? (under the sun) Can't some of the rest of those statements be taken the same way?

Brother, repent...

I'm just trying to discuss Scripture intelligently. Is an ernest effort to find the meaning of scripture something to repent of? I appreciate you doing a good job otherwise of giving your own interpretations.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
Oh, I'm perfectly aware of that.

Thank you for admitting that the text does not have the "is" [equals], but "and" [addition]. That is one of the key points and clarifies much that none may hold error.

Smoky said:
However the state existing between the death of our physical body and the resurrection of our new body is that state referred to as being absent, without a body. ...

Yet it is already declared that "absent" from either body, earthly [tabernacle] of the decaying flesh, or eternal immortal heavenly celestial body, is to be "naked":

2 Corinthians 5:3 KJB - If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Do a study on this "naked".

Furthermore, this was already demonstrated to you in the previous posts - http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126105

What was also demonstrated you, is a body without the breath of life of God is simply a corpse. Scripture declared plainly that the dead "know nothing", their "thoughts" in "that very day" of their death "perish", and they return to "dust", etc. - http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126124

http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126174

Smoky said:
Being absent doesn't mean non-existance does it?

That is the problem with using non-scriptural and additional words.

Scripture declares that the dead are "asleep" [Acts 13:36; John 11:11, etc], being hid in the Grave, in the Dust, kept Secret until the Day of their respective resurrection. All this was already documented for you - http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126150

Their characters are perfectly recorded and preserved, not only in the mind/heart of God, but also in the various books of Heaven - http://www.christianforums.com/t7790477/#post64591963

Smoky said:
... It could mean being in the presense of Christ at this time or later at the resurrection, it simply doesn't say.

Incorrect. It can mean only one thing, and it did say, but you refused it, and still cling tenasciously to the lie of the devil, "not surely die", yet look again as seen in vs 4, which speaks of the immortality given at the resurrection, not before, as already shown in Pauls parallel passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126105

Smoky said:
... One must determine whether it's implied or not.

No brother, we are looking at what the text says, again read vs 4. Paul, throughout all his epistles, clearly states the when "we shall ever be with the Lord", and it is at the resurrection, and every Apostle, Prophet, New or Old T., agrees in this, as demonstrated.

Smoky said:
...Paul said he could be present or absent and still be pleasing to the Lord.

This is where the little word "and" comes in. Two events [death [earthly corruptible body; "and" resurrection immortal incorruptible body] separated by events/time.

The resurrections are clearly given in Scripture as to their when. None are in the immediacy of any persons death, unto sleep.

Looking further at:

2 Corinthians 5:9 KJB - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

To be "absent" "from the Lord" is to not be immediately with him, and this in the earthly groaning tabernacle, a dying flesh. To be "present" and "ever with the Lord" is to have been granted immortality at the respective resurrection and taken back into Heaven with Jesus [John 14:1-3; 1 Thesslalonians 4:17, etc]

Smoky said:
...Where is he absent at?

Absent, as in not in the immediate presence of the Lord, Jesus. Jesus had ascended back into Heaven [3rd], Psalms 24, etc. When Jesus comes back, it is then, in the resurrections or translation that we shall then be "ever" "present" "with the Lord". See previouos passages, John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:17, etc.

Smoky said:
... Why would the state of being unclothed ( without a body) be a concern for someone who is totally unconscious?

It is not a concern for someone "asleep", but only for those still living in the corruptible flesh, as we:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJB - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

etc. It is the living which do not like death, even if they know it is "sleep", but all which live, know judgment is coming, and only have this brief probationary time to accept the Grace of God and live righteously by Him. Death is an enemy, not our friend.

2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:11 KJB - Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1 Corinthians 15:26 KJB - The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

Smoky said:
...How can you be "desirous to be without anything for any period of time if you are unconscious? ...

2 Corinthians 5:2 KJV - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

This passage says nothing about a "desiring" in death, but rather only "in this", which is "the earthly tabernacle in which we groan, a flesh that is decaying, aging, etc, all the time, we, as Paul, are desiring the body [Heavenly celestial body] that shall not ever die, nor perish.

Smoky said:
...What is it that is being "clothed upon"?

Genesis 2:7. [1] Dirt/Dust + [2] Breath of Life of God = [is] [3] Living Soul.

Job 19:26 KJB - And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Again, see the points here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7868909/#post67126105

The character is clothed. Again, see the resurrection, as well as the books of record.

Smoky said:
What you don't have during this incomplete state is a new body.

Precisely. Thus without a body, the person is considered, by Scripture to be "asleep", their characters perfected, are preserved [Psalms 16:1; Luke 17:33, etc].

"...gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil ..." [2 Chronicles 34:28], etc

The wicked in the grave are "reserved" -

Job 21:30 KJB - That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Also, what one lacks is "thoughts" they being "perish[ed]" [Psalms 146:4], hence those that are "asleep" "know nothing", hence "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." [Ecclesiastes 9:10], etc and one cannot "praise the Lord" [Psalms 115:17] and are in the grave, their "bed" [Job 17:13], in "silence".

Smoky said:
Can you really take this at face value and say they they have no portion "for ever".

Yes, I can take it at face value since I am not a Jesuit, nor take heed to such nonsense as their teachings and frittering away the plain statements of Scripture as they do, and as those taught by them do [knowingly or unknowingly], but rather the Scripture [KJB] is taken as it reads, and as a whole, in all its sayings together which "cannot be broken" [John 10:35].

The wicked [Ecclesiastes is in the context of judgment, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14] shall never have a "portion" [inheritance,part,possession,share] "for ever". They, the wicked, shall not inherit the New Heaven and New Earth, Neither eternal life, etc, etc.

Psalm 37:34 KJB - Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see [it].

Job 20:27 KJB -The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him.

Job 20:28 KJB -The increase of his house shall depart, [and his goods] shall flow away in the day of his wrath.

Job 20:297 KJB -This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJB - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Galatians 5:21 KJB - Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

etc, etc.

Yet even the righteous would have no portion either and be perished forever, unless it were but for Christ Jesus...

Therefore, please notice, that Ecclesiastes is written in such a manner, as to reveal that in the final chapter is the summation, the conclusion, in that all would be vanity, unless it were not for Christ Jesus, His salvation, the Resurrections, His Judgment to come.

Smoky said:
...That's saying they have no life after death at all.

True, but do not stop at one verse, since that is where many get into trouble, isolating a passage...keep reading, in the whole context... unto the last chapter. It is where it rights everything round, in Christ Jesus.

Smoky said:
Wasn't Solomon giving the opinion of what would be true without having any faith? (under the sun)

No. All things would be vanity, unless it were for God, see Chapter 12 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Ecc&c=12&t=KJV

Smoky said:
...Can't some of the rest of those statements be taken the same way?

Your incorrect apriori is what is incorrectly leading you. Let God be true...

Smoky said:
I'm just trying to discuss Scripture intelligently.

Brother, I do not believe you, no, not for a moment.

Too much of a pattern already.

Smoky said:
Is an e[a]rnest effort to find the meaning of scripture something to repent of?

It is the earnestness I doubt. Therefore, I say again, repent.

Smoky said:
I appreciate you doing a good job otherwise of giving your own interpretations.

Unfortunately you do not mock me, you mock God.

John 16:13 KJB - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Mark 12:24 KJB - And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Scripture, Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13; 2 Peter 1:20,21; Acts 1:16, 5:32; John 16:13; 1 John 4:6; 1 Corinthians 2:12, 14:32, etc, etc.

I have faithfully, even lovingly, and long-sufferingly, warned you. Repent.

Smoky · Mar 6, 2015

Brother, I do not believe you, no, not for a moment.

Too much of a pattern already.

Originally Posted by Smoky
Is an e[a]rnest effort to find the meaning of scripture something to repent of?
It is the earnestness I doubt. Therefore, I say again, repent.

Originally Posted by Smoky
I appreciate you doing a good job otherwise of giving your own interpretations.
Unfortunately you do not mock me, you mock God.

Your not only being closed minded, your also being judgmental which is a sin ! Repent !
I'm not trying to mock either you or God, I detect no love whatsoever from your posts.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
Your not only being closed minded, your also being judgmental

Fundamentalist has done nothing but shown you scripture after scripture, trying to show you the truth as it's presented. You on the other hand have just posted your ideas and suppositions to the issue at hand.

Because you cannot (or will not) see the truth when it is plainly presented, he has made a correct assumption that you are not seeking truth, but are trying to defend your position from a non biblical standpoint. That is not being judgemental, just observant.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
Your not only being closed minded ...
... I detect no love whatsoever from your posts.

Scriptural "love" is not a mere sentimentalism, but something else entirely.

Revelation 3:19 KJB - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Therefore, I have loved you. I told you the Truth and shown you from Scripture.

Closed minded? Indeed, "Sealed" [Revelation 7:4], even away from imbibing or tolerating errors, lies and deceptions of Satan and Romansim.

Matthew 5:11 KJB - Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

FRINGE:

Numbers 15:38 KJB - Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:

Numbers 15:39 KJB - And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

Blue Sapphire Law of God - See Exodus 24:10-12; Ezekiel 1:26-28, 10:1

SECT:

Acts 24:5 KJB - For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 28:22 KJB - But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

ALARMIST:

Joel 2:1 KJB - Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

CONSPIRICIST:

Jeremiah 11:9 KJB - And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:12 KJB - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

TINY LITTLE GROUP:

Revelation 12:17 KJB - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 8:12 KJB - For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Ezekiel 5:1 KJB - And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause [it] to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the [hair].

Ezekiel 5:2 KJB - Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, [and] smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

Ezekiel 5:3 KJB - Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

Ezekiel 5:4 KJB - Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; [for] thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

NARROW/NARROW MINDED:

Matthew 7:14 KJB - Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Philippians 2:5 KJB - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1 Peter 4:1 KJB - Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

CLOSED/CLOSED MINDED:

Revelation 7:4 KJB - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

HARD HEADED:

Exodus 28:36 KJB - And thou shalt make a plate [of] pure gold, and grave upon it, [like] the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Exodus 28:37 KJB - And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.

Exodus 28:38 KJB - And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

Ezekiel 3:8 KJB - Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

Ezekiel 3:9 KJB - As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house.

Revelation 14:1 KJB - And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

1 Samuel 2:2 KJB - There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Matthew 21:44 KJB - And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 20:18 KJB - Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Acts 6:9 KJB - Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called [the synagogue] of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

Acts 6:10 KJB - And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

HERESY:

Acts 24:14 KJB - But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Smoky · Mar 6, 2015

Fundamentalist has done nothing but shown you scripture after scripture, trying to show you the truth as it's presented. You on the other hand have just posted your ideas and suppositions to the issue at hand.

Because you cannot (or will not) see the truth when it is plainly presented, he has made a correct assumption that you are not seeking truth, but are trying to defend your position from a non biblical standpoint. That is not being judgemental, just observant.
__________________

No, you guys just think that if anyone disagrees with you that automatically makes them a sinner. That's being hot headed, close minded and judgmental. Everyone has an interpretation and, you know, you could just give your rebutals without making accusations. It just shows a lack of love and respect for your fellow man and reveals a little defensiveness and insecurity about what you think you believe in. If your in a formal debate it doesn't do your cause much good to childishly rail personal accusations against your opponent every time he disagrees . How would that go with your audience? Your human beings and subject to error just lilke everyone else is and you don't have any monopoly on the correct way to interpret scripture. Your not representive of most SDAs that I know and I bet most of them would just wish you would go away.

The Fundamentalist · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
No, you guys just think that if anyone disagrees with you that automatically makes them a sinner. ...

Not so. For on several occasions there were statements made of the devil [and also men] deceiving, and others being deceived and carrying error, both willingly and ignorantly. The call to repent was to repent of error when shown you from the Scripture; the Truth. Therefore, again, turn from error to Truth.

It was directly shown you where the error originates from, and who holds it in the world today [Romanism, and all her harlot daughters] and who nobly warred against it [reformers, etc].

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
Everyone has an interpretation and, you know, you could just give your rebutals without making accusations.

Once again you aren't basing your knowledge on the Bible for the it plainly states that the scriptures are not of any private interpretation.

1 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Smoky said:
It just shows a lack of love and respect for your fellow man and reveals a little defensiveness and insecurity about what you think you believe in.

It is precisely because we love and respect those seeking truth that we are here and answer queries with a plain "thus sayeth the Lord".

If you are looking for pleasing fables, you've come to the wrong forum.

What we believe in is what the scriptures say. There is no room for what we believe but only what God says through His Word.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
If your in a formal debate...

Debate is a Greek construct and not to be engaged upon by Christians. In debate, there is no absolute truth, only your truth and my truth... that is not what Christ taught.

Romans 1:29
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 6, 2015

Smoky said:
Your not representive of most SDAs that I know and I bet most of them would just wish you would go away.

This may seem like a strange thing to you but I take what you said as a compliment... a lot of SDA's are not interested in understanding the truth of what God's Word says and would be just as happy having their ears tickled.

Smoky said:
you don't have any monopoly on the correct way to interpret scripture.

If you'll notice, we are not giving our own interpretations but letting the Bible be it's own expositor...letting scripture interpret itself. That way we need not be ashamed at our understanding.

ButterflyPoette · Mar 27, 2015

The truth is the truth, it can't be relative.

mrasell · Jun 4, 2015

Smoky said:
This outward man seems to be a tent or earthly house the inner man lives in before receiving the heavenly house not made with hands. 2 Cor. 5:1. The intermediate state is the state of being unclothed which is less desirable than the state of being "further clothed" after receiving the heavenly house. How could Paul strive to be pleasing to the Lord while absent from his body if he didn't even exist during that state?

There is a study on this on the Adventist Biblical Research website:
https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/2-corinthians-51-11

Basically Paul is using a figure of speech, we die, then he hoped to be in heaven. Elsewhere Paul makes it clear that the resurrection happens when Christ returns (1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15), and the Bible also makes clear that death is a sleep (Eccl. 9:5).

When studying the state of the dead, its important to look at a range of texts to get the balance. I have some Bible memorization verses available taken from my book, the final deception and its antidote. The memorization verses can be downloaded here:

http://adventtruth.co.uk/downloads/memorisation verses/Bible_Memorisation_Verses.pdf

Absent from the body and someplace else !

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I Must Decrease That He May Increase

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