Further proof of Hell: Isaiah 30:33

Fascinated With God · Feb 26, 2013

For Topheth [a place of burning and abomination] has already been laid out and long ago prepared; yes, for the [Assyrian] king and [the god] Molech it has been made ready, its pyre made deep and large, with fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
Isaiah 30:33

I thought I had seen all of the arguments on both sides when I came across this verse.

Soulgazer · Feb 26, 2013

Fascinated With God said:
For Topheth [a place of burning and abomination] has already been laid out and long ago prepared; yes, for the [Assyrian] king and [the god] Molech it has been made ready, its pyre made deep and large, with fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
Isaiah 30:33

I thought I had seen all of the arguments on both sides when I came across this verse.

It's only proof of Hell if you believe in Hell.

dumpsterdiver45 · Feb 26, 2013

It's only proof of Hell if you believe in Hell.

No, it's proof of hell because hell is one of the most commonly taught concepts in God's inspired word. One can't wish hell away, but it will one day evaporate by God's power, not man's.

Evergreen48 · Feb 26, 2013

Fascinated With God said:
For Topheth [a place of burning and abomination] has already been laid out and long ago prepared; yes, for the [Assyrian] king and [the god] Molech it has been made ready, its pyre made deep and large, with fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
Isaiah 30:33

I thought I had seen all of the arguments on both sides when I came across this verse.

Tophet was a literal place in the Valley of Hinnom where idolatrous Hebrews in the time of Ahaz and Manasseh burned their sons and daughters as sacrifices to Molech (Jer. 7:31, 19:6.) It has long been destroyed since the days of Isaiah the prophet. It is used by metonymy to describe the place where the Asyrian army was destroyed.

Soulgazer · Feb 27, 2013

dumpsterdiver45 said:
No, it's proof of hell because hell is one of the most commonly taught concepts in God's inspired word. One can't wish hell away, but it will one day evaporate by God's power, not man's.

My God is bigger than that.

Soulgazer · Feb 27, 2013

Evergreen48 said:
Tophet was a literal place in the Valley of Hinnom where idolatrous Hebrews in the time of Ahaz and Manasseh burned their sons and daughters as sacrifices to Molech (Jer. 7:31, 19:6.) It has long been destroyed since the days of Isaiah the prophet. It is used by metonymy to describe the place where the Asyrian army was destroyed.

I figured it was something like that. An afterlife of any kind would be anachronistic in the Old Testament.

Mark51 · Feb 15, 2015

Topheth is place outside Jerusalem where, for a considerable period, apostate Israelites, including Ahaz and Manasseh, engaged in child sacrifice. Finally, King Josiah made it unfit for worship. (2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31-33; 19:3-14; 32:35) Topheth probably occupied a section of the eastern part of the Valley of Hinnom near the Gate of the Potsherds.-Jeremiah 19:2, 6,[bless and do not curse]14.

Commenting on 2 Kings 23:10, the Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160?-1235?) offers this possible explanation concerning Topheth: The name of the place where they caused their sons to pass through [the fire] to Molech. The name of the place was Topheth, and they said it was called thus because at the time of worship they would dance and strike tambourines [Heb., tup·pim′] so that the father would not hear his sons cries when they were causing him to pass through the fire, and that his heart might not become agitated over him and he take him from their hand. And this place was a valley that belonged to a man named Hinnom, and it was called Valley of Hinnom and Valley of the Son of Hinnom .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. And Josiah defiled that place, reducing it to an unclean place, to cast there carcasses and all uncleanness, that it might never again come up into the heart of a man to cause his son and his daughter to pass through in the fire to Molech.-Biblia Rabbinica, Jerusalem, 1972.

At Isaiah 30:32, 33 it is stated that the punishment that Jehovah will bring against Assyria will certainly prove to be with tambourines [Heb., bethup·pim′] and with harps. For his Topheth is set in order from recent times. Fire and wood are in abundance. The breath of Jehovah, like a torrent of sulphur, is burning against it. Here Topheth is used figuratively as a place of burning with fire, to represent the destruction that was to come upon Assyria.

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2015

It really doesn't matter what we, today, believe about hell. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50
better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born. Mat 26:24

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said eternal punishment. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught eternal punishment they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about mans eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / JulySeptember 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to life: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus allusion to Isaiah 66:24. (The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), The Valley of Hinnom, lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum

mmksparbud · Feb 16, 2015

There is no question that there will be a hell---the questionable part is that it is everlasting. Jesus was quoting Isaiah.
there was a division among the Jewss as to believes. The Sadducees and the Pharisees were always arguing about their believes. And because the Jewish leaders held a particular believe did not mean they held the correct view as Jesus frequently had to point out. There are many ,many verses that speak of death as a total destruction and they have been listed here many times. Even Revelation states that "death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire."
(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That second death is final. The lake of fire destroys all--but it ends. If you read the verses quoted, most do not imply everlasting punishment, just punishment. And when you add up the verses describing everlasting torment with those that talk about a total destruction, the total destruction far outweigh the everlasting ones. There is a difference between everlasting destruction--something which is destroyed, stays destroyed forever, and everlasting torment which doesn't end. The destroying doesn't continue, it just stays destroyed.
Sodom and Gomorrah and the gates of Jerusalem are described as burning with an everlasting fire, and other verses talk of an unquenchable fire----but they are not still burning. It simply means a fire that can not be put out by normal means. Many forest fires have been described as unquenchable because they could not put it out, put they do eventually die out, when there is no more fuel to burn.
Eternal life has been given to the saved, not the lost. God alone is immortal--we are not, never have been. Adam and Eve required eating of the fruit of the tree of life in order to live, that is why they were caste out of the garden

(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

(Gen 3:23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Perhaps you could investigate these verses also:

Ez 18:4
Ez 28:18
1 Tim 6:16
Job 4:19-21
Job 20:6-29
Psa 89:48
Psa 102:26-27
Psa 21:9-10
Nahum 1:5-9
Zep 1:18
Matt 3:12
2 Th 1:9
Mal 4:1-3

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2015

mmksparbud said:
There is no question that there will be a hell---the questionable part is that it is everlasting. Jesus was quoting Isaiah.
there was a division among the Jewss as to believes. The Sadducees and the Pharisees were always arguing about their believes. And because the Jewish leaders held a particular believe did not mean they held the correct view as Jesus frequently had to point out.

You completely ignored my post didn't you? I quoted historical and Biblical evidence which you also ignored. Can you show me any verse where Jesus corrected or contradicted the Jewish belief in Hell?

There are many ,many verses that speak of death as a total destruction and they have been listed here many times.

If you believe this why don't you quote some of those verses? The Greek word Apollumi translated "destruction" most often does not necessarily mean "destruction" i.e. cease to exist. Apollumi is also used for broken wineskins, spoiled food, men drowning at sea, killed by serpents, etc.

Even Revelation states that "death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire."

(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That second death is final. The lake of fire destroys all--but it ends. If you read the verses quoted, most do not imply everlasting punishment, just punishment.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms are interchangeable, the lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire, thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended

And when you add up the verses describing everlasting torment with those that talk about a total destruction, the total destruction far outweigh the everlasting ones. There is a difference between everlasting destruction--something which is destroyed, stays destroyed forever, and everlasting torment which doesn't end. The destroying doesn't continue, it just stays destroyed.

See my previous response re: destruction.

Sodom and Gomorrah and the gates of Jerusalem are described as burning with an everlasting fire, and other verses talk of an unquenchable fire----but they are not still burning. It simply means a fire that can not be put out by normal means. Many forest fires have been described as unquenchable because they could not put it out, put they do eventually die out, when there is no more fuel to burn.

That is what you believe but not what Jews believed at the time of Jesus. See my [post=67039268]Post #8[/post] above.

Eternal life has been given to the saved, not the lost. God alone is immortal--we are not, never have been. Adam and Eve required eating of the fruit of the tree of life in order to live, that is why they were caste out of the garden

(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

(Gen 3:23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT, Zoe, Bios, and Pneuma. Only "Zoe" is referred to as aionios zoe/ eternal life. Luke 16:19-32 clearly speaks of conscious existence after death where one is comforted and the other kis tormented. If aionios zoe means everlasting, unending life in Matt 25:46, aionios kolasis means everlasting, unending punishment in the same verse.

Perhaps you could investigate these verses also:

Ez 18:4
Ez 28:18
1 Tim 6:16
Job 4:19-21
Job 20:6-29
Psa 89:48
Psa 102:26-27
Psa 21:9-10
Nahum 1:5-9
Zep 1:18
Matt 3:12
2 Th 1:9
Mal 4:1-3

I have enough to do looking up verses I quote, if you think these verses are relevant quote some of them and explain how but before you do, please consider the verses I already posted.

mmksparbud · Feb 16, 2015

Just thought you were one of those that would prefer to look them up yourself and spare everyone a long post.
Reading these and putting them all together I, for one, see that there is an and to this fire, a total destruction. I see that God alone is immortal. I read that the soul can, indeed die. That everlasting life is a gift for the saved. That even Satan will be utterly destroyed.
But---I know there are those that choose to ignore all these, and more, in favor of a God that torments forever. (Job 4:17) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

I would like to see the verse that says the wicked are given eternal life also--that is what it takes to be in eternal torment.
If the saved get to eat of the tree of life to live forever---who is going to be giving the lost the fruit from the tree to keep them living forever?
(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Nor more sorrow, no more pain--there is pain and sorrow in an everlasting hell. There is no more sin--but in hell sinners are burning forever so if there are sinners living, there is sin. The former things are passed away--everlasting hell would prevent that.

(Eze 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Eze 28:18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

(Eze 28:19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.(Eze 28:20) Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

(Eze 28:21) Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,

(Eze 28:22) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.

(Eze 28:23) For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

(Eze 28:24) And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

(Eze 28:25) Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

(Job 20:6) Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds;

(Job 20:7) Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

(Job 20:8) He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.

(Job 20:9) The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him.

(Job 20:10) His children shall seek to please the poor, and his hands shall restore their goods.

(Job 20:11) His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.(Job 20:12) Though wickedness be sweet in his mouth, though he hide it under his tongue;

(Job 20:13) Though he spare it, and forsake it not; but keep it still within his mouth:

(Job 20:14) Yet his meat in his bowels is turned, it is the gall of asps within him.

(Job 20:15) He hath swallowed down riches, and he shall vomit them up again: God shall cast them out of his belly.

(Job 20:16) He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him.

(Job 20:17) He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter.

(Job 20:18) That which he laboured for shall he restore, and shall not swallow it down: according to his substance shall the restitution be, and he shall not rejoice therein.

(Job 20:19) Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not;

(Job 20:20) Surely he shall not feel quietness in his belly, he shall not save of that which he desired.

(Job 20:21) There shall none of his meat be left; therefore shall no man look for his goods.

(Job 20:22) In the fulness of his sufficiency he shall be in straits: every hand of the wicked shall come upon him.

(Job 20:23) When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating.

(Job 20:24) He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

(Job 20:25) It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him.

(Job 20:26) All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle.

(Job 20:27) The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him.

(Job 20:28) The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath.

(Job 20:29) This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.
(Job 4:19) How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

(Job 4:20) They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

(Job 4:21) Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom(Psa 89:48) What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
.(Psa 102:26) They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

(Psa 102:27) But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

(Psa 21:9) Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.(Psa 21:10) Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

(Nah 1:5) The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.(Nah 1:6) Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

(Nah 1:7) The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

(Nah 1:8) But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

(Nah 1:9) What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

(Mat 3:12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

(2Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(Mal 4:1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

(Mal 4:3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2015

mmksparbud said:
Just thought you were one of those that would prefer to look them up yourself and spare everyone a long post.
Reading these and putting them all together I, for one, see that there is an and to this fire, a total destruction. I see that God alone is immortal. I read that the soul can, indeed die. That everlasting life is a gift for the saved. That even Satan will be utterly destroyed.
But---I know there are those that choose to ignore all these, and more, in favor of a God that torments forever. (Job 4:17) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

I would like to see the verse that says the wicked are given eternal life also--that is what it takes to be in eternal torment.
If the saved get to eat of the tree of life to live forever---who is going to be giving the lost the fruit from the tree to keep them living forever?

I notice you have once again ignored my previous post, the scripture and historical sources I quoted. Can you show me a N.T. verse which states that the wicked will be destroyed?

(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

People are not things! This says nothing about the wicked being destroyed.

Nor more sorrow, no more pain--there is pain and sorrow in an everlasting hell. There is no more sin--but in hell sinners are burning forever so if there are sinners living, there is sin. The former things are passed away--everlasting hell would prevent that.

Twisting and ignoring scripture. The sin is what sinners did, not the sinners themselves. No more sin, sins are no longer being committed.

(Eze 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Soul is a metonym for person. This verse is like Rom 3;23 and 6:23. "The wages of sin is death and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

(Eze 28:18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Refers to the temporal death of those who rebel against God "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them." is not annihilation!

(Eze 28:19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Temporal death. Everybody dies and will face the judgment.

(Eze 28:22) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
(Eze 28:23) For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
(Eze 28:24) And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
(Eze 28:25) Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

Temporal punishment in this life. People who are destroyed don't know anything, vs.23, 24.

(Job 20:7) Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

Dung when it is expelled is not annihilated.

(Job 20:8) He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.
(Job 20:9) The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him.
(Job 20:10) His children shall seek to please the poor, and his hands shall restore their goods.
(Job 20:11) His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.

A corpse in the dust is not destroyed! Everything in red does not equal annihilation!

(Job 20:12) Though wickedness be sweet in his mouth, though he hide it under his tongue;
(Job 20:13) Though he spare it, and forsake it not; but keep it still within his mouth:
(Job 20:14) Yet his meat in his bowels is turned, it is the gall of asps within him.
(Job 20:15) He hath swallowed down riches, and he shall vomit them up again: God shall cast them out of his belly.
(Job 20:16) He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him.
(Job 20:17) He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter.
(Job 20:18) That which he laboured for shall he restore, and shall not swallow it down: according to his substance shall the restitution be, and he shall not rejoice therein.
(Job 20:19) Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not;
(Job 20:20) Surely he shall not feel quietness in his belly, he shall not save of that which he desired.
(Job 20:21) There shall none of his meat be left; therefore shall no man look for his goods.
(Job 20:22) In the fulness of his sufficiency he shall be in straits: every hand of the wicked shall come upon him.
(Job 20:23) When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating.
(Job 20:24) He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.
(Job 20:25) It is drawn, and cometh out of the body; yea, the glittering sword cometh out of his gall: terrors are upon him.
(Job 20:26) All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle.
(Job 20:27) The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him.
(Job 20:28) The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath.
(Job 20:29) This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.

None of this equals annihilation!

(Job 4:19) How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?
(Job 4:20) They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.
(Job 4:21) Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom(Psa 89:48) What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
.(Psa 102:26) They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Temporal death, vs. 21.

(Psa 21:9) Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.(Psa 21:10) Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Psa 21:11 For they intended evil against thee: they imagined a mischievous device, which they are not able to perform.
Psa 21:12 Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them.

Temporal death.

(Nah 1:5) The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
(Nah 1:6) Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
(Nah 1:7) The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
(Nah 1:8) But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
(Nah 1:9) What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

None of this says anything about annihilation.

(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Says nothing about annihilation.

(Mat 3:12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Chaff is part of the wheat, which is unusable. It is taken off the wheat and burned. This is similar to 1 Cor 3;11-15.

(2Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Something that is destroyed, annihilated cannot be "from" anything!

(Mal 4:1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

(Mal 4:3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Temporal death of the wicked in this world. Israel will not be in the afterlife treading on the ashes of the wicked.

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus also say these shall go away punishment. Matt 25:46. His audience would not have understood that as death. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad and it had nothing to do with punishment. They would not have understood "everlasting punishment" as death, it would have meant something much worse. See my [post=67039268]Post #8[/post] this thread.

mmksparbud · Feb 16, 2015

It's a free country so far and you can believe what you want. I haven't ignored any of your verses. They do not say what you want them to say. The soul that sinneth means the person that sinneth shall die?--Fine--Then there is no soul?? The soul is God's--and the soul that sinneth shall die. Twist it however you want. God alone is immortal. Gave you the verse for that. We are mortal, gave you the verse for that. Old testament, new testament--You want to throw out the old testament all together??--Go ahead, but that was the only "scripture" that Christ knew, it was the only scripture the disciples knew, or any of the Jews, it was the only scriptures that all knew Christians knew, it was the only scriptures that the Ethiopian was studying and was converted by and baptized to. The new one would not be written for a very long time.

I'm not telling you what to believe--I'm quoting verses that you do not want to see, or believe in and want to change them. Can't help that. The words perish, destruction, utterly destroyed, never shall be anymore, and then ashes--you want to believe ashes are living in torment, go right ahead--you want to believe that the statement "former things are passed away" doesn't mean the lost--ok--you want to say "never shalt thou be anymore" means living in torment forever--ok--you want to think that being burned down to chaff--that is blown away and disappears means it stays forever--go right ahead, you want to believe that when Christ said (Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." means that sinners do not perish but have everlasting life, also and Jesus didn't know what He was saying----be my guest.---
I choose to believe that God is totally and completely just--
that what He says about Himself is true. Justice for the sinner equals punishment and annihilation--eternal torment is not just nor merciful, but if you want to think it is--fine.

AlephBet · Feb 16, 2015

Fascinated With God said:
For Topheth [a place of burning and abomination] has already been laid out and long ago prepared; yes, for the [Assyrian] king and [the god] Molech it has been made ready, its pyre made deep and large, with fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, kindles it.
Isaiah 30:33

I thought I had seen all of the arguments on both sides when I came across this verse.

When I come across verses like this, I generally go to the Jewish Orthodox bible.

33 For Tophet [i.e., the place where humans are sacrificed to Molech in Gey Hinnom] is ordained of old; indeed, for Melech [Molech] it is prepared. He hath made it deep and wide; the fire pit thereof is eish and much wood; the nishmat Hashem (breath of Hashem), like a stream of gofrit (brimstone, burning sulfur), doth kindle it [see Isa 66:24].

Abaddon is the destroying Angel. Ab means father. Adon is Lord, or who speaks here. Father of Adon is Abaddon. While this strikes us as terrifying to contemplate, there is a story we do not know from before creation. The pattern we know from the nature of creation is for things to be cycled between birth death and rebirth. God makes all things new.

Apart from seeing the struggle between Father and Son, we can't know how the Son was humbled on the cross. Again, a larger story here than we know. From the Gnostics to the words of Christ, the mystery seems to be founded on a struggle of ideals. We're not told the whole story for a reason.

It's not our struggle. We are the witnesses. We do not struggle against flesh and blood, yet division wages our own wars based on ignorance. Philosophically, this is not simple.

God is Love. Love keeps no records of wrongs. In the end, the Son of God cannot judge anyone. He knows this. If he judges, he judges himself. We are from his loaf.

We existed before this struggle was sent to the material realm to be worked out. The hope is in the Father and the Son of God made holy. By this, we follow suit.

We see this story outlined in Isaiah 24, where Yahweh planned a war in heaven. His plans were changed.

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

Much of what we read in the Old Testament is based on a Son in rebellion. It's the New Testament that reveals the nature of the Son of God to us. His own words were not his, but the Fathers.

Take the sermon on the mount. Can anyone live up to it? No. Jesus did. He had to. It's his story and not simply ours. Adam fell. Adam was the Redeemer as the firstfruits of a new creation.

God makes all things new. Once humbled, God made the Son new. It's the process to bring new things from destruction. While we would naturally avoid death, it is a necessity to allow bread to rise. Hell is the abyss, or waters below. Suffering brings reward and renewal. Bliss cannot be appreciated until you have been to the depths of hell first. From this, bliss is much more appreciated.

God is Good. He is also clever. A twist at every turn to the best story ever written with Letters (Aleph Bet) and Word (Son).

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2015

mmksparbud said:
It's a free country so far and you can believe what you want. I haven't ignored any of your verses. They do not say what you want them to say. The soul that sinneth means the person that sinneth shall die?--Fine--Then there is no soul?? The soul is God's--and the soul that sinneth shall die. Twist it however you want. God alone is immortal. Gave you the verse for that. We are mortal, gave you the verse for that. Old testament, new testament--You want to throw out the old testament all together??--Go ahead, but that was the only "scripture" that Christ knew, it was the only scripture the disciples knew, or any of the Jews, it was the only scriptures that all knew Christians knew, it was the only scriptures that the Ethiopian was studying and was converted by and baptized to. The new one would not be written for a very long time.

As you said the O.T. was the only scriptures the Jews knew and here is what a great many of them believed and Jesus did not contradict them.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

I'm not telling you what to believe--I'm quoting verses that you do not want to see, or believe in and want to change them. Can't help that. The words perish, destruction, utterly destroyed, never shall be anymore, and then ashes--you want to believe ashes are living in torment, go right ahead--you want to believe that the statement "former things are passed away" doesn't mean the lost--ok--you want to say "never shalt thou be anymore" means living in torment forever--ok--you want to think that being burned down to chaff--that is blown away and disappears means it stays forever--go right ahead, you want to believe that when Christ said (Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." means that sinners do not perish but have everlasting life, also and Jesus didn't know what He was saying----be my guest.---

Your argument must be very bankrupt if all you can do is misrepresent what I said.

I choose to believe that God is totally and completely just--
that what He says about Himself is true. Justice for the sinner equals punishment and annihilation--eternal torment is not just nor merciful, but if you want to think it is--fine.

First you try to make the words of the prophets and disciples more important than the words of Christ, which you have never addressed, now you, a finite, fallible human being, are trying to substitute your assumptions/presuppositions of what justice is for God's.

Ripheus27 · Feb 16, 2015

I'd like to add that "eternal" in "eternal life" doesn't mean "life that goes on forever," nor does "life" mean "the continuation of normal bodily functions." If this were true, then when Jesus said that those who believed in Him would never die, He would be proven a liar since almost everyone who has ever believed in Him has died. So whatever "eternity" and "life" we're speaking of in this context, we're not speaking merely of a neverending continuation of normal bodily functions.

mmksparbud · Feb 16, 2015

As for what the Jews believed---try reading all those verses you were given. They state it. You want to go by some encyclopedia, that's fine--I just prefer to get it straight from the scriptures that Jesus and all the rest of them read. Jesus said whomever believed in Him would not PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. Good enough for me. Some people feel they need more than His words.
(Lev 19:36) Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
God mandates for us to be just--And it doesn't take a PHd to understand that burning in eternal torment for Cain who killed one man, is not just when Hitler, with his millions, also burns for eternity, except that Cain's eternity, no matter what, will always be longer, by several thousand years, than Hitler's.

Further proof of Hell: Isaiah 30:33

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