Epiphany about mortal sin?

uninSTAAL123 · Dec 5, 2014

I randomly had this thought come to me...just hoping it helps spark discussion

Mortal sins are not dangerous because a vengeful God will strike you down to hell no matter what. Rather, it is dangerous because you cast yourself into hell. How does one do this you might ask? Well, I believe there comes a time when you are so full of self-hatred that you have lost the door to salvation. You no longer have that door that leads to God - the moral compass that guides your actions that God has intended for you to true knowledge and happiness is shattered. Without this innate ability, life on Earth loses all meaning and slowly becomes hell. The self-hatred is so consuming that you mistakenly believe that even if there was a creator - he could not possibly have it in his heart to forgive such actions. This is where it becomes not impossible to come back to God, but insanely difficult. Once one has 'fallen down the rabbbit hole' so to speak, people are very nearly lost forever from their creator.

Mimosa · Dec 5, 2014

Interesting. I find that it applies, in a small way, to my venial sins. Every time I commit one, it makes it harder to say my daily prayers or live the rest of the day well. Ther's a small barrier that starts to go up, a false feeling of "God is not happy with me so I'd better not talk to Him for now". Mortal sin would give the extreme of the same feeling.

uninSTAAL123 said:
I randomly had this thought come to me...just hoping it helps spark discussion

Mortal sins are not dangerous because a vengeful God will strike you down to hell no matter what. Rather, it is dangerous because you cast yourself into hell. How does one do this you might ask? Well, I believe there comes a time when you are so full of self-hatred that you have lost the door to salvation. You no longer have that door that leads to God - the moral compass that guides your actions that God has intended for you to true knowledge and happiness is shattered. Without this innate ability, life on Earth loses all meaning and slowly becomes hell. The self-hatred is so consuming that you mistakenly believe that even if there was a creator - he could not possibly have it in his heart to forgive such actions. This is where it becomes not impossible to come back to God, but insanely difficult. Once one has 'fallen down the rabbbit hole' so to speak, people are very nearly lost forever from their creator.

Rhamiel · Dec 5, 2014

welcome to Christian Forums my dear brother in Christ

very insightful thoughts
sins are not sin because God is some tyrannical micro-manager
rather, He told us the way to live
when we sin, we do things that harm ourselves and harm others

uninSTAAL123 · Dec 5, 2014

Exactly, I believe he gave us the keys to the castle (happiness and fulfillment) but we need to be the ones to decorate it (free will). We sin because we don't always listen to our conscience and don't always put enough thought into our actions.

Michie · Dec 5, 2014

I think at times there comes a certain pride with sin. And that hardens the heart. When the heart grows hard & cold it is more difficult to believe in such grace.

Andres88 · Dec 6, 2014

I believe that both things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

saintandrew4life · Dec 6, 2014

mortal sin is very hard to over come . it takes alot of prayer

Rising_Suns · Dec 7, 2014

uninSTAAL123 said:
Mortal sins are not dangerous because a vengeful God will strike you down to hell no matter what. Rather, it is dangerous because you cast yourself into hell..

Welcome brother,
You have stated in few words the Catholic Church's position--and you describe well the descent of a soul from God. For as Saint Faustina says, it is mercy that is God's greatest attribute; His mercy far outstretches His justice. And even His justice is an merely an extension of His mercy. For we have a good and loving God, "who does not desire the death of the wicked," but for their conversion of heart. God has given us the gift of free will, to choose whether we want to be with Him in eternity. And He honors that gift. The only reason why sin exists, is because free will exists.

As Aquinas reminds us, evil is merely a privation of being, of what ought to be. Sin is merely choosing "not God;" it is choosing separation from God, rather than union with God (or in philosophical terms, it is choosing non-being, rather than to become fully ourselves). Boethius says that sin does damage to our very being; we actually begin to destroy our being here on earth when we sin. Those who have totally given themselves to wickedness become akin to walking corpses, already living a foreshadow of hell--an eternal destruction of the soul--which they have chosen for themselves. This is why we must pray for them earnestly. For the incomprehensible sorrow that just one soul casting himself into hell causes God, we will never be able to fully understand.

you mistakenly believe that even if there was a creator - he could not possibly have it in his heart to forgive such actions.

This seems to be ultimately the trap many fall in to; of thinking my sin is greater than God's mercy. It was once said that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting the world to believe he didn't exist. Not so. As a priest once said, the greater trick is getting the world to doubt God's infinite love for us.

-Davide

RileyG · Dec 7, 2014

Hell is not something that "accidentally" happens. It's like getting pregnant, no one gets "accidentally" pregnant. It's consequences of one's own sin and refusal to repent.

Michie · Dec 7, 2014

RileyG said:
Hell is not something that "accidentally" happens. It's like getting pregnant, no one gets "accidentally" pregnant. It's consequences of one's own sin and refusal to repent.

Yes. I think that is where it has been said that people actively choose it.

Michie · Dec 7, 2014

Rising_Suns said:
Welcome brother,
You have stated in few words the Catholic Church's position--and you describe well the descent of a soul from God. For as Saint Faustina says, it is mercy that is God's greatest attribute; His mercy far outstretches His justice. And even His justice is an merely an extension of His mercy. For we have a good and loving God, "who does not desire the death of the wicked," but for their conversion of heart. God has given us the gift of free will, to choose whether we want to be with Him in eternity. And He honors that gift. The only reason why sin exists, is because free will exists.

As Aquinas reminds us, evil is merely a privation of being, of what ought to be. Sin is merely choosing "not God;" it is choosing separation from God, rather than union with God (or in philosophical terms, it is choosing non-being, rather than to become fully ourselves). Boethius says that sin does damage to our very being; we actually begin to destroy our being here on earth when we sin. Those who have totally given themselves to wickedness become akin to walking corpses, already living a foreshadow of hell--an eternal destruction of the soul--which they have chosen for themselves. This is why we must pray for them earnestly. For the incomprehensible sorrow that just one soul casting himself into hell causes God, we will never be able to fully understand.

This seems to be ultimately the trap many fall in to; of thinking my sin is greater than God's mercy. It was once said that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting the world to believe he didn't exist. Not so. As a priest once said, the greater trick is getting the world to doubt God's infinite love for us.

-Davide

So good to see you! :wave:

Fantine · Dec 8, 2014

You are basing a lot on one's own perceptions and one's own conscience.

In a way, you are likening it to how Adam and Eve hid from God after eating the apple because they knew they had displeased him and felt they had lost His friendship.

And in your scenario, an overly scrupulous person could isolate himself from God's grace while another person with a more permissive conscience might feel close to God as (s)he understood him.

There are many gay people who are generous, compassionate and prayerful, even as, according to the Bible, they're not dotting all their "i's" and crossing all their "t's." In your scenario, they could be as close to God as the legalistic saints.

There are feminists who work for women's rights, including abortion and contraception, because they identify and empathize with women who are in serious financial and emotional distress, perhaps victims of incest or rape or abuse. They no doubt look at themselves as kind, compassionate women of conscience and may also pray frequently (at the UCC, Unitarian, or Episcopal Church, of course).

They may pray to do God's will, but what they see as God's will will be influenced by the sum total of their education and experience.

When I examine my conscience, I am always focused on the "what I have failed to do" more than the "what I have done." I am more focused on the two great commandments than the six precepts of the Church. I want to "do good" and not merely "avoid evil."

Your consciences might follow different lines. But you are making a pretty good case for individualizing each person's pathway to heaven or hell.

Rhamiel · Dec 8, 2014

we have an obligation to form our conscience in according to Gods law
an misformed conscience is not a "get out of jail free" card

Fantine · Dec 8, 2014

Rhamiel said:
we have an obligation to form our conscience in according to Gods law
an misformed conscience is not a "get out of jail free" card

But according to that point of view it is.

Whose interpretation of God's law should a person listen to? Catholic? Evangelical Christian? Mainstream Christian? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist?

I'd bet that if you asked a representative sample of gay Christians or pro-choice Christians who had the faultiest consciences, they'd point to the evangelicals and the fundamentalists--and in many ways, they'd be right.

Your version of a "faulty conscience" is as unique to your perception as someone else's might be of theirs.

And the original poster indicated that people isolate themselves because they perceive they have sinned and removed themselves from God's grace--and if they are developing their relationship with God irrespective of what you think or the placard you're carrying around telling them, "Repent!" then they are close to God.

Rhamiel · Dec 8, 2014

Whose interpretation of God's law should a person listen to?

God created the Catholic Church to lead souls to Him

all else is error

RileyG · Dec 8, 2014

Rhamiel said:
God created the Catholic Church to lead souls to Him

all else is error

Well said. Willful ignorance is sinful!

Fantine · Dec 8, 2014

Rhamiel said:
God created the Catholic Church to lead souls to Him

all else is error

And how does that account for all those people who have been brought up in other faith traditions with different laws, or, perhaps, more flexible interpretations of those laws?

Why in the world should they accept the version you are promoting?

Posts that smack of elitism (such as the one I'm referencing) certainly don't lead people to God and probably do the opposite--repelling them.

Michie · Dec 8, 2014

Fantine said:
And how does that account for all those people who have been brought up in other faith traditions with different laws, or, perhaps, more flexible interpretations of those laws?

Why in the world should they accept the version you are promoting?

Posts that smack of elitism (such as the one I'm referencing) certainly don't lead people to God and probably do the opposite--repelling them.

Fantine, Scripture answers that question.

Epiphany about mortal sin?

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