An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

NorrinRadd · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
What God spoke and wrote did not change it is the contract that changed

This is more double-talk. What God spoke and wrote WAS the contract.

NorrinRadd · Sep 23, 2014

michaelmynameIs said:
it wasnt replaced..it proved our imperfect state..jesus came and bridged our shortfall.he fulfilled it.

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.-psalm 19:7

Whether or not it was "perfect," Heb. 8:7-8 says that it was not faultless, that He found fault with it. That's why He made a New one.

NorrinRadd · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
First it was not meant as being condescending but more of a recognition that God deals with us as he knows how we think and understand...that said I am sorry if I did not choose better words that would make my meaning clear.

Sorry if I mis-heard you in terms of previous experience with people using that kind of wording.

And as to galations as in romans Paul is dealing with how the law can not justify or bring righteousness and therby it can not be a path to life....but in booth letters he is sure to also point out the problem is not in the law but in us....

Sorry, I don't see it that way, especially in Galatians.

IMO I have failed to as yet make myself clear.when I say the law is a promise of life or that the law is what we should be not what we should do....I am trying to relate that we of any power in man can not obtain to what I am speaking of.....that includes the idea that God streangthens me so I can do it.
He does not streangthen us he kills us that he may live through us....but when one trust completly in that gift the entire bible stops being about what you can do or can not do...you are dead....but it is a promise of what he will do through you and what he will not.

Ok, but I'm still not sure that's a great perspective. You say the Law is what we should "be." But it's not. It's gone. Abolished. Crucified. There is no way of looking at the Law for light on who we should "be" without seeing things to "do" (or "not do"). "Be" a Sabbath-keeper = Keep the Sabbath. "Be not" an eater of unclean foods = Don't eat unclean foods. "Be not" a wearer of unapproved fabrics = Wear only certain fabrics. And so on, 600+ times.

We shouldn't even look at a lot of the NT instructions as necessarily being for all places and times. Guidelines for correcting abuses of Spiritual gifts in a disorderly church need not strictly apply to ALL churches. Guidelines for holding interactive, group-participation meetings in churches of a few dozen members probably are not practical for churches of 100 or more people. Corrections for poorly taught women promulgating false doctrines need not apply to all women. Relinquishing of particular rights and freedoms in order to avoid appearing scandalous to the surrounding culture need not apply in other cultures.

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

NorrinRadd said:
This is more double-talk. What God spoke and wrote WAS the contract.

Speaking of double-talk you say the law is passed....but our lord said..

*[[Mat 5:17-20]] RNKJV* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Verse 17 he has finished by paying the debt of our disobediance and giving his grace to bring us into obediance...refered to as the double cure
Verse 18 clearly stating that the law is in effect untill heaven and earth pass away

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Fulfill:[OE fullfyllan] 1 to carry out. 2 to do obey. 3 to satisfy (a condition)

Our relationship to law has changed but the law is the same....what was right to do toward God in the beginning will still be right at the end...what was right to do to other men in the beginning will still be right at the end.
"FOR I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END"

Moses was given the law by God speaking it to him...in the beginning was the word....and the word became flesh and dwelt amoung us...

The law is holy...but I am not....so under the old contract I was to obey....but it was so against my natural sinful nature that even if I truly could see it was right...like holding my breath underwater; eventualy even though I knew it would bring death. My nature would overcome my reason and I would sin
That old man with his sinful nature was put in christ and hung on a tree taking the debt I owed and dieing in the Lord....when he was raised by the Holy Spirit I to was raised and as I died in him so he now lives in me....I no longer try to obey...dead men dont work....but the one who lives in me has never broken the law for as sin is my nature obediance is his....grace is me trusting him through me and resting in his complete work to be manifested...that I be changed into his image the living word.

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

NorrinRadd said:
Sorry if I mis-heard you in terms of previous experience with people using that kind of wording.

Sorry, I don't see it that way, especially in Galatians.

Ok, but I'm still not sure that's a great perspective. You say the Law is what we should "be." But it's not. It's gone. Abolished. Crucified. There is no way of looking at the Law for light on who we should "be" without seeing things to "do" (or "not do"). "Be" a Sabbath-keeper = Keep the Sabbath. "Be not" an eater of unclean foods = Don't eat unclean foods. "Be not" a wearer of unapproved fabrics = Wear only certain fabrics. And so on, 600+ times.

We shouldn't even look at a lot of the NT instructions as necessarily being for all places and times. Guidelines for correcting abuses of Spiritual gifts in a disorderly church need not strictly apply to ALL churches. Guidelines for holding interactive, group-participation meetings in churches of a few dozen members probably are not practical for churches of 100 or more people. Corrections for poorly taught women promulgating false doctrines need not apply to all women. Relinquishing of particular rights and freedoms in order to avoid appearing scandalous to the surrounding culture need not apply in other cultures.

God has said he spoke in parrables...it is the truth of the law christ keeps in us....consider Pauls conclusion of "do not muzzle the ox who treads out the corn" a parable for make sure those who labour for you are first to partake of that labour.
So "do not eat scavengers" a parable for not trying to support your life from that which takes its exsistance from death...i.e. psychology, Greek philosophy ,sociology, ect.

As to galatians Paul says specificaly..
*[[Gal 5:4-8]] RNKJV* The Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from favour.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Yahushua the Messiah neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Andry · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
*[[Rom 1:15-32]] RNKJV* So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the glad tidings to you that are at Rome also.
For I am not ashamed of the glad tidings of the Messiah: for it is the power of יהוה unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
***For therein is the righteousness of יהוה revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. ***
For the wrath of יהוה is revealed from heaven against all wickedness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of יהוה is manifest in them; for יהוה hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and supernal nature; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew יהוה, they glorified him not as Elohim, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible Elohim into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore יהוה also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of יהוה into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
For this cause יהוה gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain יהוה in their knowledge, יהוה gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of יהוה, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of יהוה, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I know its a lot but I hate cherry picking verses...that said I am not trying or saying anyone should try to be righteous...except as we learn to trust him his righteousness is revealed in us
What is his right way if not what is in the law....after all he was without sin....I am not trying to change me into him....Im believing he will live through me
So if I see my actions are not right then I know I must trust him to live through me.

Again, thank you Rick.

It's about belief, not behavior. And it's about relational, not regulational. Allow me to articulate.

God is less interested in our behavior than he is with our belief. Because belief doesn't change when your behavior changes; rather, behavior changes when your belief changes. Just so no one takes me out of context, it doesn't mean he isn't interested in our behaviour, rather he emphasizes more the need to change our belief system. Because......

When you change your belief system, then your behavior changes. And not the other way around, as the law has proven.

All the rules and regulations did was bring us to the conclusion that we couldn't do them. We could not change our behaviour enough to bring us to that state of "sinlessness"; that's why there was the fatal flaw - us - that God had no other recourse than to find fault in the people, because we could not do them.

Because God had always wanted us all the way from the Garden, to be relational - eat off the tree of life, God welcomed it. If we know the heartbeat of the Father, we do not need a set of rules or regulations, because we will do as he says or asks out of a love relationship with the Father. In fact, as you know, eating off the other tree set us on a path of rules and regulations - 613 and counting - that God said the end result would be, you shall surely die. Or in other words, you can never have right relationship with the Father by following a set of rules and regulations.

Andry · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
Speaking of double-talk you say the law is passed....but our lord said..

*[[Mat 5:17-20]] RNKJV* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Verse 17 he has finished by paying the debt of our disobediance and giving his grace to bring us into obediance...refered to as the double cure
Verse 18 clearly stating that the law is in effect untill heaven and earth pass away

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Fulfill:[OE fullfyllan] 1 to carry out. 2 to do obey. 3 to satisfy (a condition)

Our relationship to law has changed but the law is the same....what was right to do toward God in the beginning will still be right at the end...what was right to do to other men in the beginning will still be right at the end.
"FOR I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END"

Moses was given the law by God speaking it to him...in the beginning was the word....and the word became flesh and dwelt amoung us...

The law is holy...but I am not....so under the old contract I was to obey....but it was so against my natural sinful nature that even if I truly could see it was right...like holding my breath underwater; eventualy even though I knew it would bring death. My nature would overcome my reason and I would sin
That old man with his sinful nature was put in christ and hung on a tree taking the debt I owed and dieing in the Lord....when he was raised by the Holy Spirit I to was raised and as I died in him so he now lives in me....I no longer try to obey...dead men dont work....but the one who lives in me has never broken the law for as sin is my nature obediance is his....grace is me trusting him through me and resting in his complete work to be manifested...that I be changed into his image the living word.

By abolishing in his flesh the law - that is, the law and its commandments.... Eph 2:15

You're right, it's been fulfilled, in Christ. Stop living by rules and regulations, start living relationally. And out of that isn't lawlessness, but the fruits of righteousness.

jbearnolimits · Sep 23, 2014

fozzy said:
So is the letter of the law perfect? i.e. the one that God himself wrote on two tablets of stone.

And if you say yes, my next question will be why was it replaced if it was perfect?

I could have sworn I had already answered this. In fact I know I did. Sometimes I want to say "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The verse everyone seems to stumble at is Hebrews 8:7-8. Lets look at it together:

Hebrews 8:7-8

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The problem is the question of WHO or WHAT the fault was found in. In the verses before these He spoke of the covenant as a whole, not individual laws. And here he makes a shift. He is now speaking plural.

We see the WHO in verse 8 were actually people. This is plural. So the Bible doesn't say He found fault in the law, only in the people who could not keep the law.

So a second came because of our fault, not the fault of the law.

By the way, some examples of proper use of the law AFTER the new covenant are found in these places:

Acts 24:14, where Paul says he was accused of heresy but he actually worshiped God according to the law.

Romans chapter 2, where Paul says that the law is written on our hearts and we still are judged by that law. He says at the end of the chapter that we follow the law through the inner man. And in another chapter he speaks of following the law with the inner man but with the outer man he still falls into sin.

So here is the correct understanding. We have the inner man and the outer man. We follow are free from the law with the inward man, because he is born of God and can not sin. He does by nature the things in the law anyway. But the outer man is under the law.

This is why we need to learn to walk in the spirit and not flesh. Paul makes this inner man and outer man thing clear here:

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

pescador · Sep 23, 2014

Andry said:
By abolishing in his flesh the law - that is, the law and its commandments.... Eph 2:15

You're right, it's been fulfilled, in Christ. Stop living by rules and regulations, start living relationally. And out of that isn't lawlessness, but the fruits of righteousness.

Excellent post! Biblically correct and wise.

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

Andry said:
By abolishing in his flesh the law - that is, the law and its commandments.... Eph 2:15

You're right, it's been fulfilled, in Christ. Stop living by rules and regulations, start living relationally. And out of that isn't lawlessness, but the fruits of righteousness.

Andry
Where did I say I was following the law to change me....Im pretty sure all along I've been saying I am dead in his cross and am trusting him to live through me.
My point is he keeps the law not me Im dead so my sin nature is hidden in his cross as long as I trust him to live through me. His nature becomes my nature...can you see...lets look at ephesians...
*[[Eph 2:12-16]] RNKJV* That at that time ye were without the Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without Elohim in the world:
But now in the Messiah Yahushua ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of the Messiah.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto יהוה in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

To make this verse 2:15 about destroying the law of Moses requires one to ignore the context completly
Paul is talking about the gentiles and jews becoming one as believers
Verse 11...you were gentiles(strangers to God) by birth
called uncircumcision(with out covenant)by those called circumcision(with covenant)
Verse 12... Without messiah(who came to Israel )
Being foriegn to what was a shared promise of Israel
Strangers to those things promised in covenant
With no expectation from God or of God
Verse 13...but by Jesus blood we have come to God
Verse 14...he has become our peace with God...for both jew and gentile as believers...breaking the wall of partition between us(as in the wall in the temple which gentiles could not pass)
Verse 15...abolished in his one body the enmity(between jew and gentile)
The commands in the ordinances(that told Israel they could have nothing to do with those outside their covenant)
For he has made jew and gentile one as believers so making peace
Verse 16 that in his one body he has reconciled both to God in his cross...
Because in his cross he slew what made us Gods enemies(our nature of sin...the law was not Gods enemy)
Have I abused the context in any way? No....so if we can show the law being done away with and our Lord as a liar...it can not be that one.

pescador · Sep 23, 2014

jbearnolimits said:
I could have sworn I had already answered this. In fact I know I did. Sometimes I want to say "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The verse everyone seems to stumble at is Hebrews 8:7-8. Lets look at it together:

Hebrews 8:7-8

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The problem is the question of WHO or WHAT the fault was found in. In the verses before these He spoke of the covenant as a whole, not individual laws. And here he makes a shift. He is now speaking plural.

We see the WHO in verse 8 were actually people. This is plural. So the Bible doesn't say He found fault in the law, only in the people who could not keep the law.

So a second came because of our fault, not the fault of the law.

By the way, some examples of proper use of the law AFTER the new covenant are found in these places:

Acts 24:14, where Paul says he was accused of heresy but he actually worshiped God according to the law.

Romans chapter 2, where Paul says that the law is written on our hearts and we still are judged by that law. He says at the end of the chapter that we follow the law through the inner man. And in another chapter he speaks of following the law with the inner man but with the outer man he still falls into sin.

So here is the correct understanding. We have the inner man and the outer man. We follow are free from the law with the inward man, because he is born of God and can not sin. He does by nature the things in the law anyway. But the outer man is under the law.

This is why we need to learn to walk in the spirit and not flesh. Paul makes this inner man and outer man thing clear here:

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And Romans 8:1-4 says "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

So many people quote Romans 7, not being aware that Paul is using the technique of rhetoric to explain the power of sin over those who are still in the flesh. It has no bearing to those who are born again in Christ. Paul clearly says that "the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the [Mosaic] law of sin and death." The Mosaic Law, which was written for the Jews and applies only to them, has been 110% fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We are not "two men" -- bipolar?? -- with one foot in righteousness and the other in sin. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says (very, very clearly): "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; what is old has passed away... You can't be alive in Christ and alive in sinful flesh.

jbearnolimits · Sep 23, 2014

pescador said:
We are not "two men" -- bipolar?? -- with one foot in righteousness and the other in sin. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says (very, very clearly): "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; what is old has passed away... You can't be alive in Christ and alive in sinful flesh.

I agree to a point, so take up your cross daily, and mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:10-13

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Let me ask you this, do you commit sin? Be careful how you answer this.

1 Corinthians 3:3

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Galatians 5:13-24

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

If we are walking in the spirit at all times then we would always be producing the fruit of that spirit. But I see the fruit of the flesh also in Christians. So Paul was not just making a hypothetical statement. He was saying that we quite literally have to deal with the flesh and spirit that are at war with each other.

In the verses I just shared we see Paul telling us that we are both carnal and spirit. We also see him tell us that if we walk in the flesh we will have the fruits of the flesh and reap corruption. But then he also says that IF we crucify the flesh through the spirit we will reap everlasting life.

So we have a choice. Will we use the grace of God for a free pass to sin, or will we use that grace to deny sin?

fozzy · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
What God spoke and wrote did not change it is the contract that changed

What God spoke and wrote did change and if it were perfect it would never have been replaced. I would encourage you to read Hebrews because Paul takes these complex ideas and brings them down to our level. He said that the earthly temple which the entire old covenant revolved around was a pattern or model of the heavenly temple. This means that it was not the real thing, it was just given to convey spiritual truths.

The high priest pointed forward to Jesus our great high priest who ministers before God the Father. The sacrifices were also types or shadows that pointed forward to Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This means that all the millions of sacrifices that were offered over the centuries did not atone for one single sin. They just pointed forward to the real sacrifice. All the ceremonies and feasts pointed forward to Christ. Are we beginning to see a pattern?

This leaves us with the ark of the covenant that housed the tables of the law or covenant. These tablets of stone were not the real thing, they again were just a type or pattern of the real thing. The real thing is when God writes the law into our heart so the real thing is God's agape love which was perfect and better than the imperfect tables of stone. Everything in the old covenant has a spiritual counter part in the new especially the law.

fozzy · Sep 23, 2014

michaelmynameIs said:
it wasnt replaced..it proved our imperfect state..jesus came and bridged our shortfall.he fulfilled it.

The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.-psalm 19:7

It was replaced and there are a multitude of scripture that say so. OT quotes by people who lived before Christ are those of people groping about in darkness. Keeping the law in those times was an act of faith and the best they could do. We have the light of the gospel and are expected to live by that light not old covenant legalism.

Andry · Sep 23, 2014

fozzy said:
It was replaced and there are a multitude of scripture that say so. OT quotes by people who lived before Christ are those of people groping about in darkness. Keeping the law in those times was an act of faith and the best they could do. We have the light of the gospel and are expected to live by that light not old covenant legalism.

Amen.

fozzy · Sep 23, 2014

jbearnolimits said:
I could have sworn I had already answered this. In fact I know I did. Sometimes I want to say "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The verse everyone seems to stumble at is Hebrews 8:7-8. Lets look at it together:

Hebrews 8:7-8

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The problem is the question of WHO or WHAT the fault was found in. In the verses before these He spoke of the covenant as a whole, not individual laws. And here he makes a shift. He is now speaking plural.

We see the WHO in verse 8 were actually people. This is plural. So the Bible doesn't say He found fault in the law, only in the people who could not keep the law.

So a second came because of our fault, not the fault of the law.

By the way, some examples of proper use of the law AFTER the new covenant are found in these places:

Acts 24:14, where Paul says he was accused of heresy but he actually worshiped God according to the law.

Romans chapter 2, where Paul says that the law is written on our hearts and we still are judged by that law. He says at the end of the chapter that we follow the law through the inner man. And in another chapter he speaks of following the law with the inner man but with the outer man he still falls into sin.

So here is the correct understanding. We have the inner man and the outer man. We follow are free from the law with the inward man, because he is born of God and can not sin. He does by nature the things in the law anyway. But the outer man is under the law.

This is why we need to learn to walk in the spirit and not flesh. Paul makes this inner man and outer man thing clear here:

Romans 7:21-25

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You didn't answer it because you reject the verses that clearly say it was replaced or done away with. The fact that you actually use the words of Paul to defend your law keeping gospel tells me that you are not even an honest Christian. Anyone who has ever read Paul's epistles knows where he stood on this issue and its not with you. God does not give us grace so that we can go back to the old covenant and keep the law. He gives us grace so that we can stay under the new covenant and live by faith and love.

I can remember when I first became a Christian about 20 years ago I used to read Romans and I had no idea what Paul was talking about. It made no sense to me but when I read the law I could easily understand that and I was good at playing church and doing all the right things but I knew something was missing. The gospel has to be revealed to us just like it was to Paul and every other Christian because otherwise it is foolishness. Jesus revealed his gospel to me and I will never forget that sermon. It was on the two Adams and how what we receive from each is an inheritance. I didn't do anything to receive my sinful nature from Adam and I don't do anything to receive my redeemed life from Christ. The 2nd Adam who replaced the faulty first Adam.

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

fozzy said:
What God spoke and wrote did change and if it were perfect it would never have been replaced. I would encourage you to read Hebrews because Paul takes these complex ideas and brings them down to our level. He said that the earthly temple which the entire old covenant revolved around was a pattern or model of the heavenly temple. This means that it was not the real thing, it was just given to convey spiritual truths.

The high priest pointed forward to Jesus our great high priest who ministers before God the Father. The sacrifices were also types or shadows that pointed forward to Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. This means that all the millions of sacrifices that were offered over the centuries did not atone for one single sin. They just pointed forward to the real sacrifice. All the ceremonies and feasts pointed forward to Christ. Are we beginning to see a pattern?

This leaves us with the ark of the covenant that housed the tables of the law or covenant. These tablets of stone were not the real thing, they again were just a type or pattern of the real thing. The real thing is when God writes the law into our heart so the real thing is God's agape love which was perfect and better than the imperfect tables of stone. Everything in the old covenant has a spiritual counter part in the new especially the law.

Fozzy to tell me how Paul wrote hebrews is not a good start...he more than likely did not.... and I have read it many times.
other than that your first paragraph is excellent... although I don't understand why you can't see that that is what I've been saying. these things have taught us spiritual truth a spiritual truth cannot change.
I feel like maybe you're not actually reading my post but just looking for arguments in them. when God's law is written in our hearts in our minds we will do by nature, as Paul said ,the things contained in the law so it has not gone anywhere.
Instead he is changing me to be the law instead of trying to perform the law. That is the change in covenant

*[[Rom 2:11-16]] RNKJV* For there is no respect of persons with יהוה.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before יהוה, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

In the day when יהוה shall judge the secrets of men by Yahushua the Messiah according to my evangel.

when you are judged by the standard of Jesus will your nature have been changed to do those things found in the law.... those without law will be judged just as those who try to live in the law.... for he is no respecter of persons.

as I've said the law is not something for me to do it is something for me to be

fozzy · Sep 23, 2014

rick357 said:
Fozzy to tell me how Paul wrote hebrews is not a good start...he more than likely did not.... and I have read it many times.
other than that your first paragraph is excellent... although I don't understand why you can't see that that is what I've been saying. these things have taught us spiritual truth a spiritual truth cannot change.
I feel like maybe you're not actually reading my post but just looking for arguments in them. when God's law is written in our hearts in our minds we will do by nature, as Paul said ,the things contained in the law so it has not gone anywhere.
Instead he is changing me to be the law instead of trying to perform the law. That is the change in covenant

*[[Rom 2:11-16]] RNKJV* For there is no respect of persons with יהוה.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before יהוה, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
In the day when יהוה shall judge the secrets of men by Yahushua the Messiah according to my evangel.

when you are judged by the standard of Jesus will your nature have been changed to do those things found in the law.... those without law will be judged just as those who try to live in the law.... for he is no respecter of persons.

as I've said the law is not something for me to do it is something for me to be

I have been reading your posts and you constantly defend the letter of the law. You have the same ideas that the others posters have that God gives us grace to go back and keep the commandments which is wrong. There is a curse attached to the law so if you go back and try to keep it thinking that I now have grace so this will be easy you have left your first love. Jesus used this analogy quite a bit. What do you think it means to leave your first love? *Hint*,*Hint* the word Jesus uses here is agape.

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

as an addendum: legalism is when one tries to keep the law. I am NOT trying to keep the law I gave up on that years ago as I know I cannot. I am trusting Christ to live through me... and he is a law keeper

rick357 · Sep 23, 2014

fozzy said:
I have been reading your posts and you constantly defend the letter of the law. You have the same ideas that the others posters have that God gives us grace to go back and keep the commandments which is wrong. There is a curse attached to the law so if you go back and try to keep it thinking that I now have grace so this will be easy you have left your first love. Jesus used this analogy quite a bit. What do you think it means to leave your first love? *Hint*,*Hint* the word Jesus uses here is agape.

that is not correct... I am NOT trying to keep the law I am trying to stay dead.... so that he will live through me.... but the speed at which you replied to my post showed that you may have read it but you paid no attention to what I was saying. this is because not only are you sure that what you're saying is right but you also seem to be sure of what I'm saying and you're not correct.

An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

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