1st Clement

JM

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This may help your friend: Contra Magesterium: Practical problems with Holy Tradition | Reformed Christian Theology

Pretty much destroys the notion that the Catholic Magesterium is on par with Scripture. It is a logical impossibility.

It's an on going discussion. For the sake of his marriage he limits his talks about the subject to his Pastor and me. My background is Anglican, stop in Rome for a minute and latter spend 2 years in an Eastern Orthodox parish. (St. Nektarios) I'm familiar with the ECF's but find the allure of antiquity a powerful draw so I try to avoid spending too much time reading them.

jm
 
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JM

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I hope you get around to reading my piece when you can.

You're probably right...I should suck it up and read them in light of the Bible and Reformation.

One of the issues my friend has is in the way we treat the biblical mss. We view them as we view secular, non inspired documents like the writings of the ECF's and apply textual criticism to both equally. He no longer trusts scripture because we do not have inspired set of originals and the text keeps shifting with every generation. So now he is looking for a church to authoritatively tell him what books are scripture in stead of the best guesses biblical scholars make on what the text is supposed to be.

During the Reformation the biblical text that was in their hands was viewed as the word of God without any textual criticism. Muller even admits this in his Post Refomational Dogmatics, the Reformed Confessions read, "kept pure in all ages"...the modern church as abandoned this idea for inspired originals. It seems we are looking for secular help to aid in our dating of the inspired text.

Ranting, venting...apologies.

jm
 
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abacabb3

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You're probably right...I should suck it up and read them in light of the Bible and Reformation.

It depends. If you are ex-Greek Orthodox it might be difficult and not fruitful. It depends on the individual. I personally don't wear a ring and have no religious imagery on my phone, car, my house, etc. Yet, I keep a Hindu Idol in my house (an Apsara) which is essentially the Bald Eagle of Cambodia, my wife's country. Cambodia is Buddhist (my wife is a Christian) so to us it just looks cute, it has no real attachement to us. However, to others, it would be disconcerting.

So, don't do anything that would cause distress. However, I think quoting from Augustine, it demolishes the idea that Holy Tradition is on par with the Scripture.

One of the issues my friend has is in the way we treat the biblical mss. We view them as we view secular, non inspired documents like the writings of the ECF's and apply textual criticism to both equally. He no longer trusts scripture because we do not have inspired set of originals and the text keeps shifting with every generation. So now he is looking for a church to authoritatively tell him what books are scripture in stead of the best guesses biblical scholars make on what the text is supposed to be.

I love James White on this. I am still agnostic over whether the "Majority Text" or the more modern critical texts hold sway. However, my stance is that ultimately though the original Scripture is the Word of God, and what we have now is by all estimates the 99.97% defect-free Word of God, so for all intents and purposes the majority text or critical text are both the 100% word of God.

Now, what your friend is not comfortable with is that there can be any doubt in that 0.03%. However, we are talking inconsequential stuff that does not affect doctrine, perhaps the one thread I created on the "book of life" would cause some trouble, but then again, minimal. It wouldn't disprove Calvinism, that Christ is our Lord, or anything actually important.

The fact that the church historically lived in great tension over whole books of the Bible (is Esther in? How about Wisdom of Solomon? etc) makes the issues with our canon now very minor. And, to answer his concerns, the RCC never was in agreement over the books until the Council of Trent (in the 1500s). So, for the first 1500 years were guys like Eusebius, Tertullian, Augustine, and Athanasius all wrong because they came up with conflicting Canons? Of course not.

I plan to get into more detail over what Scripture is eventually in my personal studies, but ultimately it is a historical argument over what is in and out, and a matter of Spirit-led conviction if it is right. Why not read the Quran? Something greater than us is at work which verifies what we read really is God's Word. The Holy Spirit obviously.

Ranting, venting...apologies.

jm

NP.
 
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abacabb3

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One of the best testimonies to the early nature of the Scripture and how early Christians interpreted it was Clement's only surviving Epistle to the Corinthians. In order to get more out of it, it helps to understand the historical context behind the letter.

Date of authorship. The internal evidence in the text itself appears to argue for an early date, perhaps as early as the late 60s to the 80s AD.

The argument in favor of a late date (90s to early second century) the argument is as follows: “An indication of the date comes from the fact that the church at Rome is called 'ancient' and that the presbyters installed by the apostles have died (44:2), and a second ecclesiastical generation has also passed on (44:3)" (Wikipedia).

Here’s what the text itself actually says:

Not in every place, brethren, are sacrifices offered continually, either in answer to prayer, or concerning sin and neglect, but in Jerusalem only; and even there the offering is not made in every place, but before the temple in the court of the altar, after that which is offered has been diligently examined by the high priest and the appointed ministers (1 Clem 41:2).

At the time of the epistle’s authorship, the sacrificial system is still in place, presumably at the temple. The traditional date of the destruction of the temple and the ending of sacrifices is 70 AD. So, this means that the letter was written before 70 AD, or the destruction of the temple did not bring an immediate end of temple sacrifices.

Being that the Sadduccees as a sect lived on after the temple and it was until rebellions in the second century that all the Jews were expelled, it is a good assumption to make that the sacrifices continued in the ruins of the temple (“before the temple in the court of the altar” as the Epistle says.) However, these sacrifices probably came to an end not too long afterwards.

Another clue of the Epistles date can be surmised in the following passage:

They [the apostles] appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they [the Apostles] had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry. Those who were thus appointed by them, or afterwards by other men of good repute, with the consent of the whole Church…have been unjustly deposed [in Corinth] from the ministry. Happy are the presbyters who finished their course before, and died in mature age after they had borne fruit; for they do not fear lest any one should remove them from the place appointed for them (1 Clement 44:2, 3, 5).

The Apostolic (first) generation has generally passed away at this point, and it appears that there are congregations led by second (“those who were thus appointed by them”) or third generation (“or afterwards by other men of good repute”) believers. Some of the second generation has passed away (“happy are the presbyters who finished their course”) which also implies that some of the second generation (as is the case of Clement, who is mentioned in Scripture in Phil 4:3) live on.

Some ancient historians balk at the idea that both generations can be alive at once, asserting that more time had to pass. But, this is just contrary to common sense. If all the Apostles were converted between 25 AD to 35 AD as adults, they would have easily passed away or be matyred by the 60s, aside from notable exceptions (such as the Apostle John.) Four or five decades is enough time for almost the entire first generation to pass, and a lot of the second too. The fact a fourth generation is not mentioned makes it impossible that the epistle could have been written much after the 80s AD.

Why? Let’s use a real-world example. Timothy is a second generation believer. He was converted by Paul, who is an Apostle, and even as early as the 60s was appointing elders himself (1 Tim 3, see also Titus 1:5). These elders would be third generation believers.

Now, let's look at it with rough years and dates. Timothy was converted by Paul in the late 30s or early 40s AD. He was about 20 years old, but maybe even older. The last he is mentioned are in Epistles appointing him a bishop/overseer/elder (60s AD, he’d be in his 30s at the earliest, but maybe even his 50s) and in the Epistle to the Hebrews, that he was released from prison (60s or 70s AD).

Could Timothy still be alive in Clement’s time? Yes, he’d be in his 60s or 70s. Could he pass away from old age in that time? Yes, that could have happened as well. Being that Timothy was already assisting in the appointing of other Bishops in the 60s AD, with the consent of local churches, means a third generation had already begun that early.

The fact that none of those people, already called “elders” in the 60s AD have not passed to such a degree to force Clement to name a fourth generation appears to force a date in the 70s AD at the very latest. Any later, then it would appear an absolute certainty that a fourth generation would be widespread. It surely had to exist in some churches, though apparently not in Corinth.

Let's consider another part of the EPistle and how it affects how we can surmise its date of authorship:

We have also sent faithful and prudent men that have walked among us from youth unto old age unblameably (1 Clement 63:2).

Some have used this phrase to “prove” Clement was written in at least the 90s. However, this quote regards the second generation of believers and not the third. A second generation believer like Timothy, could have been in their 20s in the 50s AD, and pushing his 50s by the late 70s AD.

The fact that many of these men are still alive, and judging from the age of the widow list in 1 Tim 5:9 that the age of 60 was an age where death was relatively close at hand, means that depending upon when "youth" is cut off (probably around age 30) a elapsing of time more than two to three decades is impossible. We need to remind ourselves that converts were made as early as the 30s AD. By the 80s AD, these men would be absolutely ancient.

However, there is no need to posit a date even that far out, though it would be early in the eyes of most liberal scholarship. The fact is, the second generation of believers in Jerusalem or even Rome (which was started by believers converted in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, Aquila and Priscilla were second generation converts in Rome) could be in their 20s or 30s in the 30s and 40s AD. These same young people would be "elderly" in the 60s AD somewhere in their 50s.

Combine the above with the fact that the Corinthian church is called “ancient” (meaning decades old in the lingo at that time) and the words of Jesus are quoted but from proto-Gospels or oral tradition (when scholarship believes that Mark was probably written before 70 AD), forces an “early date” for Clement as early as the late 60s AD, probably before the temple was destroyed.

Issue at Hand in Clement. The Church at Corinth, with a history of factional fighting as early as the writing of 1 Corinthians, is at it again, apparently with pompous “leaders” trying to install themselves over leaders that were appointed by the Apostles or Second generation elders.

The issue at hand: Can a Bishop/Presbyter who has done nothing morally wrong, and who was appointed by an Apostle or a group instated by the Apostles, be replaced for any reason?

There also appears to be an undercurrent of false teaching at Corinth, with Clement emphasizing the doctrine of the Trinity, primacy of Scripture, that the second coming is a literal teaching, salvation by grace through faith, and repentance. These are not my opinions, but facts that I will detail in my synopsis.

What does Clement teach us today? For one, he teaches that the Scripture is inerrant and defers to this and early New Testament Scriptural tradition to justify doctrine and opinions concerning how a church ought to be run. I believe this undercuts modern Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox denominations’ view of the role of Scripture.

Apostolic Succession, as fleshed out by Irenaeus, does not exist. What does exist is that the original Bishops/Presbyters were appointed by the Apostles. Unlike what many Protestants may think, following Scriptural standards for Church governance (as seen in Acts 15 and the Pastoral Epistles) is important and not every single guy who styles himself a preacher and personally inspired can just start a church.

That was the heresy that the Corinthians were succumbing to: charismatic leaders that were self-appointed. This is a dangerous trend which has splintered Christianity and has led believers to believe that everyone ought to do what they are personally inspired to do, and not fall under any Church's discipline, which is Scriptural.

There is indeed Apostolic Succession, of a less mystical sort, through the Presbytery. The Presbyters were appointed by Apostles and they appoint new Presbyters in their place, and the process continues. So, a Reformation-minded Church can follow Apostolic Succession in this model, though historically the chain has been broken for some time now. The question is whether heresies in the Roman and Orthodox traditions forfeited their rights as churches to make claim to Apostolic Succession.
 
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abacabb3

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Clement has much to teach us. However, if you want the Cliif Notes (or Spark Notes!) version of it, here is my synopsis:

Clement begins with praise of the Corinthian church for their humility and peacefulness. This is to be used as a foil against what he accuses the new Corinthian leaders of trying to do.

1 Clem 1:3 got my attention, because it reiterated roles for Christians found in Ephesians 5 to 6 (which implicitly shows that Ephesians is a genuine Pauline Epistle). Women are to cherish their husbands and their role seems to be in the household, which is honorable for women.

Clement reminds the Corinthians that schisms and divisions used to be “abominable” to them (2:6) and that the commandments were written on their hearts as Jeremiah promised (2:8), which supports a non-legalistic view of the OT law, which is misunderstood by the Adventist Church today.

What made the Corinthians fall away? Apparently they got fat, lazy, and spoiled (3:1) which reminds me of the Proverbs 30:8-9:

Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the LORD?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God.

An interesting view that Clement takes in 3:4, applying it to jealousy in the Corinthian Church leading people to cause divisions, is how jealousy/covetousness was the sin in which Adam made “death enter into the world.” After all, just like breaking the first commandment in essence is breaking all of them, breaking the tenth commandment leads men to kill, cheat, steal, and ultimately want to be their own God.

In Clement's eyes, Adam was jealous of God. Coveting is the polar opposite of love and reading this gives me a fuller appreciation of that.

Clement then gives OT examples of the danger of coveting and follows up to “our generation,” the then present day in (5:1, 2). The Apostles are then named, implying not a long period of time between their passing and the writing of the Epistle. Familiarity with Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians is seen in 5:5 when the “prize of patient endurance” for the faithful is invoked. As a lesson for today, I would say that all teachings of God wanting to give material prosperity as opposed to discipline (whether physical, spiritual, or financial) is the Biblical example as it was interpreted by Clement.

As a historical side note, Clement reports that Paul got to take his missionary trip to Spain (5:6) as mentioned in Romans. Contemporary women and their sufferings, not from the Bible but probably from the second generation of believers as indicated by their Greek names, also implies an early date for the Epistle. Martyrs from a date decades before would probably not be remembered.

He asks the Corinthians to defer to leadership that is of apostolic origin for the first time in 7:2. Implying that the new leadership taught heretical opinions, Clement immediately goes into essential doctrine.

“Let us look steadfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious in the sight of God is his blood, which having been poured out for our salvation, brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.” (1 Clem 7:4)

When Clement speaks of grace, he is not talking in general terms. In Clement’s Scriptural worldview, grace precedes faith. People do not attain knowledge of Christ by their own power of reason and wisdom. It’s a knowledge that is a gift from God given to those He elected to save. Even repentance is a gracious gift, not something man can will himself to do on his own. Clement (as so does Romans and Ephesians) says this, not me, which we will get into.

In countering the heresy he finds the adversarial Corinthian leaders teaching, Clement then speaks for chapters on repentance, making it clear that it is available to the Corinthians. He quotes the Old Testament (Ezekiel 33) in 8:3 “As I live says the Lord, I desire not the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance.”

Then in chapter 10, Clement begins a chapters long discussion on obedient faith, faith that is not merely words. He quotes the famous “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned onto him as righteousness” (10:6). The examples of Lot and Rahab follow. The crimson thread that Rahab hung from her window as a sign of her working with the Israelites is interpreted as prophecy, “showing beforehand…the blood of the Lord brings redemption onto all men that believe and hope on God.” (12:7) Again, a justification by faith and not works is preached.

In chapter 13, Clement invokes the earliest recorded words of Christ not in Scripture, and they are essentially sayings from the sermon on the mount regarding reciprocal forgiveness and generosity.

Being that Christ showed humility and bore the sins of many, we are exhorted to be “imitators” (17:1) of this. The Corinthians are asked to repent like David did after his affair with Bathsheba.

In 21:7, women are exhorted to stop gossiping and be silent, as they are taking sides in the factions, if not encouraging the schisms to grow, as it is something to gossip about. I think we should be less apologetic of the Bible’s teachings about women showing silence and submission in Church, as 1 Corinthians and Clement attest to this as being necessary. They certainly should not be pastors if they are forbidden even to ask questions during a worship service.

23:3 interestingly quotes 2 Peter 3:4: “They will say, ‘Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’” Many doubt that Peter really wrote 2 Peter, but a quotation from Clement (who is from Rome) pretty much confirms the earlier Roman origin and date of the letter.

Clement even refers to the letter as “Scripture” in the same verse, which he conflates with “wretched are the double-minded,” a quotation of uncertain source. In all likelihood, he’s referring to 2 Peter, and the former part was not meant to be taken as Scripture but rather his opinion (those who doubt the second coming are wretched, as Peter not long ago addressed the issue.)

It appears that the Corinthian heretics doubted the second coming of Christ, because Clement takes his time to explain that there is a good reason that the second coming did not occur yet. This also is evidence against the over allegorical interpretation of Revelation and 2 Thessalonians that is common in some liberal Protestant circles.

The second coming was always considered a literal event that had not yet occurred, which is why people even began doubting it mere decades after Christ. In 28:2 Clement quotes Job 19:26 (“Thou shall raise this my flesh hath endured all these things”) to substantiate that literal resurrection is being taught. Perhaps, Docetists or heretics of the ilk of 2 Thes are theologically where the Corinthian heretics are coming from. They may be proto-gnostics, though they are never accused of sexual immorality, which is common of the gnostics.
 
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abacabb3

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However, maybe their morality is implicitly questioned. In 30:3 it says “Let us clothe ourselves in peace … being justified by works and not by words.” Even here, the accusation against his adversaries is gossiping and “intemperance,” whatever that may be (whether anger, sexual, alcohol, who knows.)

Just so we do not get confused with the notion that Clement is preaching works, he is not. Chapters 31 and 32 detail that this is not the case. To summarize:

“Wherefore was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?” (31:2)

Righteousness comes by a substantial faith, not a faith of mere words.

”They all therefore were glorified and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the righteous doing which they wrought, but through His will.” (32:3)

This faith is a gift of God’s grace. Clement does not ascribe to the “humans are totally free on their own to figure out that Jesus really is God and that He really saves everyone from their sins who trust Him to” line of reasoning. This is made explicit in 32:4—

“And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

This should add insight to our readings of Romans and Ephesians (which actually uses the word "predestines"). This early Bishop taught the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith. Christians are called by God, we do not call to him. An individual’s “wisdom” or “understanding” is nothing, but faith is everything, and NO ONE for all time was justified apart from faith.

This is a teaching of Clement that I am 100% in agreement with. So, I would not consider myself a Calvinist, as I cannot bear to read his books very long, but a “Clemerntarian” or something to that effect, if I must be called something. Because what Christ taught is what Paul taught. What we are confused about these days, twisting Paul’s words against each other, seem to be easily understood by Clement, an early associate of Paul, and taught by him.

Just like Paul anticipates people saying, “given this teaching, shall we sin so grace may abound,” Clement anticipates the identical question in 33:1 and responds, “May the Master never allow this to befall us.” “The righteous are adorned in good works.” (33:7) So, we’re not saved by them, but people should definitely see them. As summarized in 34:4 “He exhorteth us therefore to believe on Him with our whole heart, and to be not idle nor careless unto every good work.”

There are exhortations to good works such as the rich ministering to the poor, and the poor being grateful (38:2).

Then, Clement addresses the issue of total depravity. Sorry people, he ascribes to a doctrine of universal impurity of man before God: “Shall a mortal be clean in the sight of the Lord; or shall a man be unblamable for his works?...Nay, heaven is not even clean in His sight.” (39:4,5; see also Job 15:15 which he appears to be quoting from memory)

This helps us more clearly understand the Gospel. If all men for all time were saved by God’s grace through faith (32:4) then no one is saved by works outside of Christ, because all men (including babies and righteous pagans) are at least as unclean as heaven itself, that Clement does not consider clean in God’s eyes.

Again, Clement is not Scripture, but as among one of the earliest interpreters of Scripture, he adheres both to total depravity and predestination, which adds a lot of credibility to those that adhere to those aforesaid doctrines, increasing the likelihood that they have a more correct interpretation of true Religion than those that disagree, and that any church that teaches otherwise is more likely in error.

Finally, after all of this discussion of doctrine (which implicitly the Corinthian heretics reject) Clement begins discussing the real reason for the letter: stick with your original Bishops and Deacons! He quotes Is 60:17 in 42:5 to that effect, has a historical discussion which I already covered in the previous post about how these leaders were chosen, and makes clear that such a system is equal to God appointing these men for this work (43:1).

The reason for the apostles appointing presbyters (Greek for "Elders") was that they “knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office.” (44:1)

“They appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration. Those therefore who were appointed by them, or afterward by other men of repute with the consent of the whole Church, and have ministered unblamably to the flock of Christ in lowliness of mind, peacefully and with all modesty, and for long time have borne a good report with all these men we consider to be unjustly thrust out from their ministration.” (44:2)

44:2 not only implies a date where most church leaders were appointed by the Apostles previously (second generation Christians) or the subsequent generation, it also shows that it was generally agreed upon that this was the way it ought to be done. 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Acts 6 and 15, and the Pastoral Epistles make clear that the Church was not to be divided and have leadership replaced unless outright heresy was taught.

Christians were used to this, even over crucial doctrinal matters. Paul did not start a new denomination when he had to correct Peter publicly in Antioch. Instead, we see in the Scripture an attempt is always made to correct doctrinal disputes before schisms (as seen in Acts 15 and then Paul’s warning in Galatians not to listen to teachers preaching a Gospel of works of the Law). This is completely ignored by many Protestants, who make divisions out of divisions, and individuals just start movements with their own ideas without any blessing or commission from the Church.

This knowledge should humble those of us that are schismatics (not Catholics or Orthodox).

The whole letter appeals to Scripture, and not tradition. Even when tradition is invoked (the choosing of Bishops), it finds its background in Isaiah 60:17. Why? The early church was a Bible-believing, Sola Scriptura, Church. Clement makes this clear not only in the way he argues with the Corinthians, but also in 45:2, 3:

“Ye have searched the scriptures, which are true, which were given through the Holy Ghost; and ye know that nothing unrighteous or counterfeit is written in them.”

Also, the early church was clearly Trinitarian. There are two such mentions:

“Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?” (46:6)

“For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, who with lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of them that are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever.” (58:2)

Clearly the Trinity is three Persons and one God! I don’t know Greek, because if I did, I really wonder if the words “who are the faith” actually has the word “are” as opposed to is, or maybe the translator took the clear listing of 3 Persons and used “are” as the verb in accordance with that. Nonetheless, it proves that in Clement's time there were not any Jehovahs Witnesses or anti-trinitarians of any sort. The Trinity was taken for granted.

Clement then warns the schismatics that Jesus said it is better not to be born than try to offend one of His elect (46:8) and even forces the Corinthians to read 1 Corinthians, and read what it has to say! He exhorts the “leaders” to “seek the common advantage of all, not” their “own.” (48:6) He reminds the readers that in love there are no divisions or schisms (49:5).

He then returns to the doctrine of grace:

“Who is sufficient to be found therein, save those to whom God shall vouchsafe it? Let us therefore entreat and ask of His mercy, that we may be found blameless in love.” (50:2)

“This declaration of blessedness was pronounced upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom be the glory for ever and ever.” (50:6)

“We shall be guiltless of this sin. And we will ask, with instancy of prayer and supplication, that the Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name.” (59:2)

Salvation here is a matter of God’s election, not man’s effort so that he’d have reason to boast (Eph 2:8). The next few chapters again entreat the schismatics to repent and then they would be in like flint and that pretty much wraps up the Epistle.
 
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lindart

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Thank you for sharing this with us, Abacabb3. I am in agreement with your position regarding Clement's epistles. My question for you is in regards to Clement's description of apostolic succession. Should this then be a non-negotiable when seeking church membership? IOW, are the apostolic churches the only ones given the authority to interpret Scripture? I want to be where God wants me to be and if it be to be under Apostolic Authority then I will submit.
 
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abacabb3

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Thank you for sharing this with us, Abacabb3. I am in agreement with your position regarding Clement's epistles. My question for you is in regards to Clement's description of apostolic succession. Should this then be a non-negotiable when seeking church membership? IOW, are the apostolic churches the only ones given the authority to interpret Scripture? I want to be where God wants me to be and if it be to be under Apostolic Authority then I will submit.

That's a phenomenal question, and sadly I have an answer that does not measure up with it!

I have also found myself asking the same thing. I have firmly come to the conclusion that Apostolic Succession that existed pretty firmly in the first few centuries of the Church, has pretty much broken down.

In some ways, this is very sad. We know the Scripture says, "The gates of Hell won't prevail against His Church."

However, we must not be careful to conflate Apostolic Succession with the Church itself. If the Scripture told us to, then we would have plenty of reason to worry being Protestants. However, because the Scripture does not but rather gives us instructions how to faithfully do a lot of things, including govern the Church, then we can conclude the following:

-We should choose a Church with a Biblical view of Church government. This means, which Clement got totally right (big surprise, he knew Paul!), that Elders with the approval of their congregation appoint their fellow Elders and by extension their successors.
-Being that the above is true, we know that it is unbiblical to expel Elders for any other reason than teaching heresy. Further, we cannot appoint ourselves as leaders and start our own church.

So, while no church can literally trace itself back all the way to the time of Apostles, we can stand assured that the gates of Hell did not prevail against the Church because God has always kept a remnant for Himself, to this day. If we are His remnant, our desire should be to faithful to His word and institute Biblical church government and to worship with Christians in a church that has a Biblical church government.

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Now, to apply what I just said, for all practical purposes I don't recommend going to a RCC or EO church because they teach heresy. Cyprian of Carthage wrote:
Nor ought custom, which had crept in among some, to prevent the truth from prevailing and conquering; for custom without truth is the antiquity of error. On which account, let us forsake the error and follow the truth, knowing that in Esdras also the truth conquers, as it is written: Truth endures and grows strong to eternity, and lives and prevails for ever and ever. (Epistle 73:9)

Remember, every Protestant Church is sourced from the RCC, then they have no claim to Apostolic Succession either, as they are sourced from apostate churches. So, my advice is to attend a church that at least is teaching good doctrine, including good doctrine on church government.

So, the mega church with a self appointed pastor, no matter how good his doctrine and how good the church, I would advise against because the Pastor appointing himself is unbiblical.

However, if he grows old, and appoints Elders to replace him and the doctrine is good, then the church becomes valid at that point.
 
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abacabb3

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Do the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Have It Right On Church Government? | Reformed Christian Theology

There is a lot of debate over what was the form of church government that existed during the New Testament era. Perhaps the strongest basis for the largest “Christian” faiths on the planet, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox, is that they lay a claim to apostolic succession.

The long short of it is that the office of bishop has been handed down from bishop to bishop all the way back to the apostles. They argue, this gives present bishops apostolic authority in all matters and sometimes a special blessing that allows the bishop holding the office to in effect be the apostle in the present day.

Now, obviously the Bible doesn’t say this explicitly, so some Protestants go in the opposite direction where any guy (or gal) who styles himself a pastor just goes ahead and opens a church, not being appointed by anyone.

My contention is that neither understanding is biblical.

But, is it possible that we misunderstand the Bible today? After all, for years the only form of church government there was is the traditional Catholic/Orthodox one.

Furthermore, what we cannot argue is that by the time Ignatius was writing his letters (late 1st century, early second century), the church was very hierarchical, had Bishops governing regions and to do things like the Lord’s Supper or baptism apart from the Bishop’s consent made one a schismatic.

There can be very good reasons for such a hierarchical, almost “Catholic” looking church government that early on. For one, the people who were not under the bishop’s authority in Ignatius’ time (less than a 100 years after Christ and about 50 to 70 years after the apostles) could have been real nuts, for one. Schismatics were already denying the deity of Christ and other doctrines that early.

Nonetheless, the level of authority the Bishop wielded in Ignatius’ time is not necessarily biblical. There is no biblical example of people being forbidden to preach or baptize in Jesus name even if they were not appointed by the apostles (as Christ says, “Don’t stop him! Whoever isn’t against you is for you.” Luke 9:50) Some may argue that the people doing this were apostles, so the successors of the apostles are the only one that can do this.

This does not make much sense because 1. the Bishop doesn’t do the baptizing these days and 2. the earliest understanding of church government in the Bible and in Clement’s letter to the Corinthians (70-100 AD) does not lend itself to that interpretation.

Then, why did Ignatius and seemingly everyone else in his time that went along with him already have it wrong? My contention is that things can change A LOT within even a couple of generations. Look at the difference in US society between 1955 and 1995, for example. So, the church could have changed radically from its roots, very quickly. So, we do not know if what was the norm in Ignatius’ time is necessarily Biblical.

What does the Scripture say?

The Scripture itself does offer a picture of a relatively cogent church. Apostles had divisions between them (Paul and James, for example) and yet they came together and settled their differences. In Acts 15, we see a meeting of the apostles to hammer out differences on doctrine from people with very different opinions. The idea obviously was to keep the church unified. This historical truth is obviously in the Catholics’/Orthodox’s favor.

We also have the explicit testimony in Scripture where Paul appointed men (Timothy, Titus) and in turn called them to appoint elders to rule the churches under there jurisdiction.

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you. (Titus 1:5)

We Protestants might not like this, but the Church was a centralized organization from the very beginning, with appointed (and not locally elected) leaders. We also see we have an outside leader not from the same geographic area (Paul) appointing leaders below him to a geographic area (i.e. Titus in Crete) to appoint leaders in individual cities in that area.

It is important to note that the earliest extra-biblical writing, 1 Clement, appears to show that this sort of structure carried over from Paul’s time to the early church. It also goes into far more detail.

It should be noted that it is believed that Clement was the third bishop of Rome and that he was mentioned in one of Paul’s epistles. Traditionally, he knew the apostles and internal evidence in the letter lends credibility that it was written one generation after the apostles, and not two or three as some people assert. Let’s start reading:

So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.

Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come.

So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.(1 Clem. 42:2-4)

It appears to me that Clement is arguing in favor of a type of apostolic succession, being that the original authority is God the Father to Christ, which was then passed on to the apostles (with full assurance from the Son, the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. The apostles then appointed their “first fruits” (converts) from among the locals to be bishops/elders and deacons. Now, what it does not say is that who they appointed was vested with special apostolic powers.

And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop’s office.

For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration. Those therefore who were appointed by them, or afterward by other men of repute with the consent of the whole Church, and have ministered unblamably … we consider to be unjustly thrust out from their ministration. (1 Clem 44:1-2)

The point of Clement’s whole letter was to address a faction among the Corinthians that wanted to elect new leaders to replace those that were previously there, specifically when the leadership wasn’t guilty of any wrongdoing. It is interesting to note that the leadership the Corinthians were trying to replace were appointed by either the apostles and others by those appointed by the apostles. So, this places the writing pass the apostolic era, but no more than 1.5 generations afterwards, as those appointed directly by the apostles are still in the Corinthian church!

Orthodox/Catholics would argue that this substantiates Apostolic Succession as Church doctrine as it pertains to church governance. Here we see, as we do in the Bible, that an outside body can take people that no one knows, take them from somewhere else, and just appoint them as the local leadership.

I’m not quite so sure that the reference concerning the “whole Church” approving leadership refers to the preceding. It is also possible that we are forcing an interpretation that we would get from Ignatius, which blatantly speaks of the appointing of bishops from outside the local churches. In Titus 1:5, outsiders appointed the bishops from their local cities. So, the leaders appointed by the apostles or the appointees of apostles in Clement’s time were merely from the city in which they were acting as leadership. This is why it says that they were the “first fruits” and that the continuance is that those “first fruits” then appoint men to replace themselves.

We also have indication in the letter that Clement’s position was the shared position of a good number in the Corinthian church, which adds credibility that even early on that Clement’s understanding was the traditional and correct one. Those who were causing division by appointing their own leaders apart from consent of the Church and in opposition to previous appointments, were addressed as if they were a minority.

It is shameful, dearly beloved, yes, utterly shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that it should be reported that the very steadfast and ancient Church of the Corinthians, for the sake of one or two persons, maketh sedition against its presbyters.(1 Clem 47:6)

Ye therefore that laid the foundation of the sedition, submit yourselves unto the presbyters and receive chastisement unto repentance, bending the knees of your heart. (1 Clem. 57:1)

So, the faction wasn’t the whole church here.

Is Clement acting as a Pope and laying down the law? I am not sure if the text lends itself to that interpretation either. The flow of the letter was that Clement was hoping to hear that everything would be resolved, making no papal injunctions or anything of the sort. He obviously wields no other authority beyond that of a respected person with wisdom that people ought to listen to.

This being said, I’d think that Catholics/Orthodox are pressing their case too strong to say that Clement is appointing any outsiders or is himself an outsider presiding over the Corinthians, because he is merely defending those locals who were already appointed the way they were always appointed. However, it does seem that the early church was unified and was still able to peaceably settle disputes of theology and governance above the local scale, just as the whole Church intervened in Acts 15 to settle disputes in three church regions (Antioch, Syria and Cilicia; which might have been the vast majority of the gentile world converted to Christ up to that time.)

So, the long short of it, I think the ideal is that we have one church, no pope, and there is something to apostolic succession…Bishops just don’t have magical powers of being the apostles on earth today. They are their own men.
 
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