Ex-Christians (2)

Loudmouth said:

My point is that you are unaware of doing the very thing you are criticizing others of.



The Messiah isn't supposed to fulfill some of the prophecies.

It is this sort of evasion and twisting of logic that started me down the road of atheism.

Click to expand...

You're not making any sense here.

There are prophecies in the bible in the old testament that relate to when Jesus came the first time. There are others that were made for when he comes the second time. There are still others that have nothing to do with His coming either time, but rather world events. Some have been fulfilled, and others haven't yet. If you have a problem with a particular prophecy, then mention it and we can discuss it. But telling me that some guy living today made a prophecy that Jesus would come back on a certain day doesn't count. That's not bible prophecy, as I explained before.

Loudmouth said:

False. They are prophecies of what the Messiah needs to do in order to be the Messiah. Jesus didn't do those things. Therefore, Jesus was not the Messiah.

If you get to make the excuse that someone will come back one day and fufill the rest of the prophecies, then ANYONE can be the Messiah.

Click to expand...

Ok. Again, be specific. What prophecies were there about the Messiah that weren't fulfilled?

Loudmouth said:

Isaiah 11

3And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; 4But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.


That never happened.

Click to expand...

That's a prophecy that applies to the period called "The Milllenium" or thousand year reign when Christ reigns on the earth after He comes back. From Revelation 20:

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Loudmouth said:

It is the Old Testament that makes the rules of who the Messiah is, not post-Jesus writers who are trying to make excuses of why Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies.

Click to expand...

Yes, it told about how they would recognize Him when he came. Those prophecies were fulfilled. Here is a passage about when He comes the second time, as told by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Loudmouth said:

Again, they weren't. Jesus did not conquer nations like the Messiah is supposed to do.

There is a reason that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.

Click to expand...

Did you read what I wrote. No. You replied long before that would be possible. IT APPLIES TO THE SECOND COMING!!!!

Loudmouth said:

Other examples of how badly the messianic claims are, let's look at the famous claims that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin, and lets look at the WHOLE prophecy.

Isaiah 7
"13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

If we look earlier in Isaiah 7 we find a description of the Assyrians and how they threatend Judah.

"1 When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.
2 Now the house of David was told, “Aram has allied itself with Ephraim”; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind."

Did Jesus lay waste to those lands? Nope. The only part that the New Testament writers used was the part they could fake and not have to produce evidence for, the virgin birth. The rest they left out because Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecy.

Click to expand...

Here's you answer: A question about the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14