Can Christians fall away?

Bump

care to interact with the arguments in Post #77?

I'm not responding to #77 but I am responding to statements about John 15. The branches are truly in the vine connected to Jesus, truly removed by God and truly put in the fire. The question is, is this fire hellfire? I would emphatically answer no. Jesus is telling His disciples of 3-4 years that they can be in danger of losing their life should they stop applying the truth they've learned from Jesus. They can be in danger of getting their works burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. They can be in danger of not being fruitful. All these would lead to a fiery end, this is a destructive end, but it is not hell.

True believers can fall away from being fruitful, they can die physically, they can have a dead faith (James 2), they can have their works burned at the judgment seat, they can come under the consuming judgmental fire of God in their lives, tempering them to get the dross out of their lives, but they are not in danger of losing their salvation-justification, "yet he himself shall be saved" 1 Cor 3:15

OSAS preservation of the saints but not perseverance of the saints

konroh said:

I'm not responding to #77 but I am responding to statements about John 15. The branches are truly in the vine connected to Jesus, truly removed by God and truly put in the fire. The question is, is this fire hellfire? I would emphatically answer no. Jesus is telling His disciples of 3-4 years that they can be in danger of losing their life should they stop applying the truth they've learned from Jesus. They can be in danger of getting their works burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. They can be in danger of not being fruitful. All these would lead to a fiery end, this is a destructive end, but it is not hell.

True believers can fall away from being fruitful, they can die physically, they can have a dead faith (James 2), they can have their works burned at the judgment seat, they can come under the consuming judgmental fire of God in their lives, tempering them to get the dross out of their lives, but they are not in danger of losing their salvation-justification, "yet he himself shall be saved" 1 Cor 3:15

Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense, though, because it is talking about fruitless branches, not branches with bad fruit. It is also saying the whole branch will be removed from Christ.

Hell is not just the fire. It is separation from God, eternal and irreconcilable. So when a branch is removed (meaning separated), it is no longer in Christ.

Sure, it's no longer in Christ. There are many Christians not bearing fruit, not abiding in Christ. And the branch that doesn't bear much fruit is pruned to bear great fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Christ, he is thrown away. Abiding in Christ is not the same as believing in Christ. This is written to disciples who had been believing and abiding and following. They could stop doing all three, and Christ warns them not to do that. The consequences would be uselessness and punishment. What we're arguing about is whether or not this is temporary or permanent punishment. I think everything points to temporary punishment, even physical death is just a temporary punishment. Eternal punishment is negated by John 10.

But clearly even the context is against this, v. 7 if you abide in me ... ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you. Not all believers are abiding in Christ, not all believers are in fellowship with Christ and are fruitful and not all believers are getting what they wish to make them more fruitful. Clearly these are "this life" statements and circumstances. A Christian can waste his life right here and now and dry up and be burned. This is not future hell, this is present hell, present punishment.

You can choose to disagree, but then you are going against other clear statements in the Bible like, "No man can pluck them out of the Father's hand."

konroh said:

Sure, it's no longer in Christ. There are many Christians not bearing fruit, not abiding in Christ. And the branch that doesn't bear much fruit is pruned to bear great fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Christ, he is thrown away. Abiding in Christ is not the same as believing in Christ. This is written to disciples who had been believing and abiding and following. They could stop doing all three, and Christ warns them not to do that. The consequences would be uselessness and punishment. What we're arguing about is whether or not this is temporary or permanent punishment. I think everything points to temporary punishment, even physical death is just a temporary punishment. Eternal punishment is negated by John 10.

But clearly even the context is against this, v. 7 if you abide in me ... ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you. Not all believers are abiding in Christ, not all believers are in fellowship with Christ and are fruitful and not all believers are getting what they wish to make them more fruitful. Clearly these are "this life" statements and circumstances. A Christian can waste his life right here and now and dry up and be burned. This is not future hell, this is present hell, present punishment.

You can choose to disagree, but then you are going against other clear statements in the Bible like, "No man can pluck them out of the Father's hand."

Click to expand...

I am not saying anyone is plucked out. I'm saying God lets them go. There is a difference.

The reason behind this is that if a person can be fruitless after his conversion, then he literally has no purpose for which he must do anything. It is completely logical to say the following:

After conversion, you cannot lose salvation, therefore now that I have converted, I can go to my house and have sex with every prostitute in my city and curse the name of God.

This is why it is dangerous

What is the question asked after Paul made his clear presentation of justification?

Romans 6:1 "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?"

May it never be, of course we can continue in sin and what will happen is that grace will abound.

This is not dangerous doctrine, it's common sense. You have someone you love, Joey Sculley. I'm assuming he's your son and forgive me for being so personal. But he's your son no matter what he does. If he fails to please you, if he does everything possible to try to deny being your son, he can't get away, he's still your son. Your love is unconditional based on what he may or may not do, it just is.

The same with salvation from God. We're born into His family. This isn't something that can be undone, no matter what we do.

Amen, and again forgive me for using something so personal to you.

konroh said:

What is the question asked after Paul made his clear presentation of justification?

Romans 6:1 "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?"

May it never be, of course we can continue in sin and what will happen is that grace will abound.

This is not dangerous doctrine, it's common sense. You have someone you love, Joey Sculley. I'm assuming he's your son and forgive me for being so personal. But he's your son no matter what he does. If he fails to please you, if he does everything possible to try to deny being your son, he can't get away, he's still your son. Your love is unconditional based on what he may or may not do, it just is.

The same with salvation from God. We're born into His family. This isn't something that can be undone, no matter what we do.

Amen, and again forgive me for using something so personal to you.

Click to expand...

He's actually my brother. However, salvation is not just getting into heaven. Eternal life is, to use the definition of Christ in John 17, intimate knowledge and oneness with God. It is a relationship with God.

Now, in a relationship, one comes to know a person. However, you cannot confer the knowledge of a finite person, or even an intimate knowledge of your CAT in one day or one experience. That takes years and years of work and it is STILL incomplete at best.

How then, can one gain an intimate knowledge and oneness with an infinite being through one single conversion experience?

In order to boil it down and simplify, some people just focus on heaven. They say that if you will make a promise to God, you will go to heaven, like a glorified Wonka ticket.

This is then added to by the teaching that NOTHING is necessary after that. It is an extremely literal understanding of Sola Fide that gives us OSAS doctrines. And no matter how much one claims what you said here, that does not change the very simple logic below:

I am saved
Nothing I do will effect my salvation
Therefore I can eat, drink, and be merry, for sin or not, I am going to heaven. Woopee!

That is dangerous, in the worst way possible.

A simple belief in Christ is not what saves. Demons will acknowledge everything that is true. They know every truth there is to know about Christ. They are not saved. It is much more than just KNOWLEDGE that saves. It is more than TRUST.

Teaching that nothing a person does will damn them after salvation teaches them that their conversion is based on nothing but the words they said. That could not be further from the truth.

Salvation is dependent on our assent in repentance. Without repentance there is no salvation. Salvation is an ongoing journey of synergistic coworking with God, as even Paul called us co-workers with God.

It is God Who does the WORK of salvation. In repentance, we have to make sure we stay on the train.

I agree that eternal life a process of intimate knowledge from John 17. However, John 6:47 says "he who believes has eternal life" this must mean that eternal life is also positional, in this case.

You are reacting to the grace of God which has the ability to cover sins past, present and future. Belief truly is a ticket to heaven. But continued belief is intimate knowledge of God, processional eternal life and reward in heaven.

I recognize that we are going to disagree, you are adding an invalid understanding of repentance to belief. Repentance is a turning away from dead works to God, this occurs before belief (Cornelius in Acts 10), at belief (many examples in Scripture), and after belief, again, many Scriptural examples. In fact repentance is the lifeblood of the Christian walk, the misappropriated verse in 2 Peter for "all to come to repentance" is actually "the Lord is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish." Who is the "you?" It's believers. We should be continually repenting and turning to God.

I agree salvation is synergistic, but if we let go of God He cannot let go of us, this is the nature of the infinite/finite relationship of salvation.

sculleywr said:

I am not saying anyone is plucked out. I'm saying God lets them go. There is a difference.

The reason behind this is that if a person can be fruitless after his conversion, then he literally has no purpose for which he must do anything. It is completely logical to say the following:

After conversion, you cannot lose salvation, therefore now that I have converted, I can go to my house and have sex with every prostitute in my city and curse the name of God.

This is why it is dangerous

Click to expand...

Are you aware of Heb 12? Those of God's children who make such choices will not "get away" with it. Is that what really concerns you? That some will "get away" with the things that you might want to do but don't, for fear that you'll lose your salvation? I sense that from the ridiculous and extreme example you gave.

God's Word promises eternal life for those who believe in Christ. And God's Word promises "scourging" (Heb 12) for those children who are disobedient.

Without doubt, Solomon was a believer, yet he ended poorly. 1 Kings 11:1-13 records when he "grew old". Very poorly.

konroh said:

I agree that eternal life a process of intimate knowledge from John 17. However, John 6:47 says "he who believes has eternal life" this must mean that eternal life is also positional, in this case.

You are reacting to the grace of God which has the ability to cover sins past, present and future. Belief truly is a ticket to heaven. But continued belief is intimate knowledge of God, processional eternal life and reward in heaven.

I recognize that we are going to disagree, you are adding an invalid understanding of repentance to belief. Repentance is a turning away from dead works to God, this occurs before belief (Cornelius in Acts 10), at belief (many examples in Scripture), and after belief, again, many Scriptural examples. In fact repentance is the lifeblood of the Christian walk, the misappropriated verse in 2 Peter for "all to come to repentance" is actually "the Lord is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish." Who is the "you?" It's believers. We should be continually repenting and turning to God.

I agree salvation is synergistic, but if we let go of God He cannot let go of us, this is the nature of the infinite/finite relationship of salvation.

Click to expand...

Repentance is TURNING AWAY. It is an action, and even the word FAITH (Pistis) is an action word. The ending -is in faith means a constant, dynamic action.

What of the Deacon Nicholas, at one time filled with the Spirit (Acts 7), at another hated by God (Revelation).

FreeGrace2 said:

Are you aware of Heb 12? Those of God's children who make such choices will not "get away" with it. Is that what really concerns you? That some will "get away" with the things that you might want to do but don't, for fear that you'll lose your salvation? I sense that from the ridiculous and extreme example you gave.

God's Word promises eternal life for those who believe in Christ. And God's Word promises "scourging" (Heb 12) for those children who are disobedient.

Without doubt, Solomon was a believer, yet he ended poorly. 1 Kings 11:1-13 records when he "grew old". Very poorly.

Click to expand...

If they get into heaven, then they get away with it. If there is no eternal punishment, then what we end up with is the following statement:

Hitler, as a child, confessed and believed on Christ and truly meant it.
Later in life, something happened and Hitler left Christ.
Throughout his life, Hitler killed Jews, Frenchmen, Polish people, and all others who got in his way on his path of world domination.
Hitler ended his own life after he lost the war.

According to what you say, because kid-Hitler truly meant what he said as a child, adult Hitler died and went to heaven alongside Mother Teresa.

sculleywr said:

If they get into heaven, then they get away with it.

Click to expand...

So you just discount any significance of the word "scourge" in Heb 12? It means to "skin alive with a whip". If that is getting away with anything, I'll eat my hat. Why don't you think God is capable of making the life on earth of any of His children miserable for their disobedience?

Haven't you read 1 Cor 11:30? Or 1 Cor 10? What in the world did Paul mean by "examples" if their lives aren't applicable to ours today? If they were all unbelievers, there would be NO example for us.

If there is no eternal punishment, then what we end up with is the following statement:

Hitler, as a child, confessed and believed on Christ and truly meant it.
Later in life, something happened and Hitler left Christ.
Throughout his life, Hitler killed Jews, Frenchmen, Polish people, and all others who got in his way on his path of world domination.
Hitler ended his own life after he lost the war.

According to what you say, because kid-Hitler truly meant what he said as a child, adult Hitler died and went to heaven alongside Mother Teresa.

Click to expand...

I have never said there is no eternal punishment. All who have not believed in Christ will experience eternal punishment. So please get that straight.

If Hitler did actually believe on Christ (as a child is irrelevant), then God has obligated Himself to save those who believe. Period.

Regardless of what he did as an adult, God always keeps His promises, though it seens you don't actually believe that. Wow.

Have you read the life of Solomon? 1 Kings 11:1-13 sums up his life. The kingdom was taken away from his son, because of how he ended; which was quite poorly. The text is clear enough.

I suppose you'd argue that Solomon ended up in hell.

FreeGrace2 said:

So you just discount any significance of the word "scourge" in Heb 12? It means to "skin alive with a whip". If that is getting away with anything, I'll eat my hat. Why don't you think God is capable of making the life on earth of any of His children miserable for their disobedience?

Haven't you read 1 Cor 11:30? Or 1 Cor 10? What in the world did Paul mean by "examples" if their lives aren't applicable to ours today? If they were all unbelievers, there would be NO example for us.

Click to expand...

The punishment for sin is eternal death. The punishment for constant habitual sin for a Christian is temporal inconvenience in comparison to heaven.

I have never said there is no eternal punishment. All who have not believed in Christ will experience eternal punishment. So please get that straight.

If Hitler did actually believe on Christ (as a child is irrelevant), then God has obligated Himself to save those who believe. Period.

Regardless of what he did as an adult, God always keeps His promises, though it seens you don't actually believe that. Wow.

Have you read the life of Solomon? 1 Kings 11:1-13 sums up his life. The kingdom was taken away from his son, because of how he ended; which was quite poorly. The text is clear enough.

I suppose you'd argue that Solomon ended up in hell.

Click to expand...

There is no eternal punishment for those who have made a promise that they very clearly broke and had no remorse for breaking.

The difference with Solomon is that he did repent, whereas I'm talking of people who did not repent.

Hitler, however, did NOT repent. He continued all the way through to his own suicide. Hitler would not be in heaven.

God is just, and eternal security is about as just, IMHO, as Vladimir Putin.

James painted a very different view of salvation. Plain belief is NOT enough to save. Even the demons have plain belief.

sculleywr said:

The punishment for sin is eternal death.

Click to expand...

Very short sighted of you. Scripture is FULL of God's discipline for sinning believers. I gave you examples.

The punishment for constant habitual sin for a Christian is temporal inconvenience in comparison to heaven.

Click to expand...

So what?

There is no eternal punishment for those who have made a promise that they very clearly broke and had no remorse for breaking.

Click to expand...

Who made a promise? The Bible is clear: God makes the promise. Please re-think your view so that it aligns with Scripture.

The difference with Solomon is that he did repent, whereas I'm talking of people who did not repent.

Oh yeah? Where do you read that?

Hitler, however, did NOT repent. He continued all the way through to his own suicide. Hitler would not be in heaven.

Click to expand...

Do you believe that Hilter ever believed in Christ? Please cite your source.

God is just, and eternal security is about as just, IMHO, as Vladimir Putin.

Click to expand...

God promises eternal life to those who believe. "Eternal" is as secure as it can be.

James painted a very different view of salvation.

Click to expand...

His letter wasn't even about salvation. It was about practical Christian living.

Plain belief is NOT enough to save.

Click to expand...

Well, thank you for your heretical opinion. The Bible clearly says otherwise. Are you a Catholic? That's their view.

Even the demons have plain belief.

Click to expand...

Please read with more care. No, they don't. All James said about demons is that believe that God is One, or monotheism. What does that have to do with saving faith? Nothing. Which is the point; James wasn't speaking about saving faith either.

btw, what the demons believe, they believe because of experience, not because of faith. Do you see the difference or not?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

FreeGrace2 said:

Very short sighted of you. Scripture is FULL of God's discipline for sinning believers. I gave you examples.

Click to expand...

You gave examples of TEMPORAL punishment. In essence:

The wages of sin is death unless you have made a promise to Me, regardless of your keeping the promise.

So what?

Click to expand...

So, instead, you would see Hitler in heaven next to Paul because he made a promise as a kid?

That is the opposite of justice.

Who made a promise? The Bible is clear: God makes the promise. Please re-think your view so that it aligns with Scripture.

Click to expand...

That does halfway align with Scripture. God made the promise on the cross. He did not remake that promise. Repentance is not a word or confession. It is an action and a work. There is absolutely no point to anything except the gospel message if they are not necessary for salvation. Not little point. No point.

Oh yeah? Where do you read that?

Click to expand...

Ecclesiastes, you know, his last book which is essentially the repentant words of an old sinner.

Do you believe that Hilter ever believed in Christ? Please cite your source.

Click to expand...

He was raised in Germany as a Catholic. As I recall, Catholics confess the Creed, though they do add the filioque.

God promises eternal life to those who believe. "Eternal" is as secure as it can be.

Click to expand...

He promises eternal life, but it is obvious that they do not have it, unless you can claim to have a completely intimate knowledge of God. That is the very definition of eternal life. Therefore, you do not yet have it, by the Scripture's definition.

His letter wasn't even about salvation. It was about practical Christian living.

Click to expand...

He asks the question: Can faith save him?

It is the exact same form of save used for salvation in the rest of scripture. And it means exactly the same.

Well, thank you for your heretical opinion. The Bible clearly says otherwise. Are you a Catholic? That's their view.

Click to expand...

Demons have plain belief. They more than believe. They know that they know that they know exactly who Christ is, who God is, who the Spirit is, and how salvation works. And yet they do not have salvation.

That isn't the view of the Roman Catholics, who you just called heretics in a way which is contrary to the rules, but of the Apostle James.

Please read with more care. No, they don't. All James said about demons is that believe that God is One, or monotheism. What does that have to do with saving faith? Nothing. Which is the point; James wasn't speaking about saving faith either.

Click to expand...

He didn't ask "can faith save him?" It is very clear. That is the thesis, and the conclusion is NO. Faith alone does not justify, which is necessary to salvation.

btw, what the demons believe, they believe because of experience, not because of faith. Do you see the difference or not?

Click to expand...

Belief is belief, whatever the reason.

sculleywr said:

So, instead, you would see Hitler in heaven next to Paul because he made a promise as a kid?

Click to expand...

If God keeps His promise, what do you think? Maybe you think God doesn't have to keep His promises.

That is the opposite of justice.

Click to expand...

How 'bout that! It's called grace. Seems you have a problem with that.

That does halfway align with Scripture. God made the promise on the cross. He did not remake that promise. Repentance is not a word or confession. It is an action and a work. There is absolutely no point to anything except the gospel message if they are not necessary for salvation. Not little point. No point.

Click to expand...

Your paragraph only "halfway" makes sense. God promises eternal life for those who believe in Christ. Do you believe this?

Ecclesiastes, you know, his last book which is essentially the repentant words of an old sinner.

Click to expand...

How do you know that's what he wrote just before he died? 1 Kings 11:1-13 summarizes his life. There's no repentance in 1 Kings 11. Maybe you should read the passage before you pass judgment.

He was raised in Germany as a Catholic. As I recall, Catholics confess the Creed, though they do add the filioque.

Click to expand...

The problem is that the RCC adds works to gain salvation. Grace and works NEVER go together. It is faith ALONE in Christ ALONE by grace ALONE that saves. There is no evidence that Hitler ever believed in Christ as Savior. But even if he did, God made a promise and is obligated to keep it.

He promises eternal life, but it is obvious that they do not have it, unless you can claim to have a completely intimate knowledge of God. That is the very definition of eternal life. Therefore, you do not yet have it, by the Scripture's definition.

Click to expand...

Scripture describes it in several ways, not just the one way you have fixated on.

God's promise:

1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

God's criteria:

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

He asks the question: Can faith save him?

It is the exact same form of save used for salvation in the rest of scripture. And it means exactly the same.

Click to expand...

So what? We find the exact form in Acts 27:20,31 and the context is clearly physical deliverance from being drowned.

In fact, James used 'sozo' 5 times; none of which refer to eternal salvation.

Demons have plain belief. They more than believe. They know that they know that they know exactly who Christ is, who God is, who the Spirit is, and how salvation works. And yet they do not have salvation.

Click to expand...

So what? Irrelevant. They KNOW that Jesus is the Christ, but that's not what James was noting. All he noted was that demons believe that God is One, which isn't the gospel. You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

That isn't the view of the Roman Catholics, who you just called heretics in a way which is contrary to the rules, but of the Apostle James.

Click to expand...

Sure it is. They believe that 2:24 means that man is justified (saved) by faith plus works.

He didn't ask "can faith save him?" It is very clear. That is the thesis, and the conclusion is NO. Faith alone does not justify, which is necessary to salvation.

Click to expand...

I'll let Paul refute your view:

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Apparently you disagree with Paul. I don't.

Belief is belief, whatever the reason.

Click to expand...

And what point are you trying to make here?

There are 2 ways people believe something. From trust, or from experience. Maybe you just don't understand the difference.

Jesus noted the difference as well:

John 20:27
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Many Christians make the mistake of reading the word "save" and thinking eternal salvation. But the meaning of "save" is simply deliverance, the context determines from what.

Women aren't eternally saved by having children 1 Tim 2:15, they are delivered from the sin of Eve by living a life of faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. They are given purpose.

Timothy and his congregants weren't eternally saved by paying close attention to the teaching and persevering in it, they were sanctified and delivered from heresy.

James 2:14 shows that a believer's faith that doesn't work cannot save him from a dead faith that wouldn't be a justified/proven/vindicated faith before others, it wouldn't be a perfected faith. If you notice the context both before and after this case study of faith and works in James v. 13 says "mercy triumphs over judgment." Then ch. 3:1 says "Let not many of you become teachers." Those who wish to have judgment, who wish to be teachers and incur a stricter judgment will understand the nature of works being the spirit which causes the body of faith to grow in their lives.

James is not saying that every believer will have a growing, vibrant faith, every believer should, but that is exactly what he's exhorting them to. Make your faith alive! Make it work.

FreeGrace2 said:

If God keeps His promise, what do you think? Maybe you think God doesn't have to keep His promises.

Click to expand...

God keeps promises, but the promise of salvation is conditional on real lifelong faith. That is the definition of the Greek word Pistis. Not faith at one time in your life.

How 'bout that! It's called grace. Seems you have a problem with that.

Click to expand...

Doctrine that compromises the Justice of God by means of the grace of God is not true in any way.

Your paragraph only "halfway" makes sense. God promises eternal life for those who believe in Christ. Do you believe this?

Click to expand...

I believe eternal life is guaranteed to all who have Pistis in God. Not just a plain belief.

How do you know that's what he wrote just before he died? 1 Kings 11:1-13 summarizes his life. There's no repentance in 1 Kings 11. Maybe you should read the passage before you pass judgment.

Click to expand...

It's the standard accepted teaching of Jews and Christians. Considering the Tanakh believed as much, you have some ground to cover.

The problem is that the RCC adds works to gain salvation. Grace and works NEVER go together. It is faith ALONE in Christ ALONE by grace ALONE that saves. There is no evidence that Hitler ever believed in Christ as Savior. But even if he did, God made a promise and is obligated to keep it.

Click to expand...

Works justify us, not faith Alone. James 2.

Also, to the promise part, refer above.

Scripture describes it in several ways, not just the one way you have fixated on.

God's promise:

1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

God's criteria:

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Click to expand...

Scripture is promising it, but not defining it in these verses. John 17 defines it.

So what? We find the exact form in Acts 27:20,31 and the context is clearly physical deliverance from being drowned.

In fact, James used 'sozo' 5 times; none of which refer to eternal salvation.

Click to expand...

So what, then, is faith saving him from with justification? Not mankind, since James was pretty brutally murdered.

So what? Irrelevant. They KNOW that Jesus is the Christ, but that's not what James was noting. All he noted was that demons believe that God is One, which isn't the gospel. You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Click to expand...

Thjat knowledge is the source of belief, not the belief itself. I've met people who have been shown proof beyond doubt of the heliocentric nature of the universe and yet do not believe it.

Sure it is. They believe that 2:24 means that man is justified (saved) by faith plus works.

I'll let Paul refute your view:

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Apparently you disagree with Paul. I don't.

Click to expand...

Notice that Paul is constantly speaking of works OF THE LAW throughout his letters. James defines works as different.

And what point are you trying to make here?

There are 2 ways people believe something. From trust, or from experience. Maybe you just don't understand the difference.

Jesus noted the difference as well:

John 20:27
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Click to expand...

Was Thomas's belief not saving then?

Since you equate the belief of the evangelist of India with the demons, I must assume you think him unsaved.

sculleywr said:

If they get into heaven, then they get away with it. If there is no eternal punishment, then what we end up with is the following statement:

Hitler, as a child, confessed and believed on Christ and truly meant it.
Later in life, something happened and Hitler left Christ.
Throughout his life, Hitler killed Jews, Frenchmen, Polish people, and all others who got in his way on his path of world domination.
Hitler ended his own life after he lost the war.

According to what you say, because kid-Hitler truly meant what he said as a child, adult Hitler died and went to heaven alongside Mother Teresa.

Click to expand...

I agree it is a bizarre doctrine founded on a corruption of the nature of saving grace and a whitewashed view of salivation , but as soon as you oppose it your counted as either a Pharisee or a believer in works salvation ...