Matthew 22, 23 and Rabbinic Authority

visionary · Feb 11, 2014

I think you covered it very well. To take it a step further, I would say that Yeshua took up the authority and declared He will give and take it to/from whom He will from that point on. He took authority for Himself.

Matthew 9:6
But look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, pick up your mattress, and go home!”
.....8 When the crowds saw this, they were awestruck and said a b’rakhah to God the Giver of such authority to human beings.

He gave authority to His Talmidim.

Matthew 28:18
Yeshua came and talked with them. He said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

He declared "ALL" authority in the whole universe was given to Him. Yet, He never gave the ruling religious leaders any.

daq · Feb 11, 2014

Phillip Hawley said:
Just a quick note to all posters. Feel free to post as you like. However, the OP is describing the prophecy, explanation, method and means by which the custodial duties for the Kingdom of God/Heaven were taken from the Leadership of (the southern kingdom) Israel. The primary texts are found between Matt 21-25. I would like to continue within those bounds (not necessarily within those scriptures exclusively) and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

I am a little surprised that so little has been discussed in that regard. There has been numerous side issues brought up. And there have been a few great observations. I was wondering if anyone else had any insight on these scriptures. In short, what am I missing?

Thanks in advance,
Phillip

I would say that the only thing missing, (but not that you are necessarily missing it) would be the final "punch line" statement which closes the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 26:1-2 KJV
1. And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

:prayer:

Yahudim · Feb 11, 2014

I would take this even further. I don't think the authority He granted His talmidim is what our religious 'leaders' think it is. We are simply His agents and all our authority is predicated on humbly doing His will and following His instruction.

8 But you are not to let yourselves be called Rabbi; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each others brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth Father. because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called leaders, because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted."

So how many rabbis, leaders, etc. do you know. They already rebel in seeking their 'office' of authority over their brethren. My advice is don't walk, run. I don't recall Him telling us to mimic Jewish religious hierarchy.

visionary said:
I think you covered it very well. To take it a step further, I would say that Yeshua took up the authority and declared He will give and take it to/from whom He will from that point on. He took authority for Himself.He gave authority to His Talmidim. He declared "ALL" authority in the whole universe was given to Him. Yet, He never gave the ruling religious leaders any.

mercy1061 · Feb 11, 2014

As has already been stated, all of us are either torah teachers or learners, but none of us are rulers over the people.

visionary · Feb 11, 2014

There is no glory given to any but Yeshua when we gather at the throne. No claim to leadership even for Moses, Abraham, etc because they all will thrown down their crowns at His feet in the end and admit it was all His doing.

Revelation 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rachel Rachel · Feb 12, 2014

Phillip Hawley said:
From the translation of the 14th Century copy of the Hebrew Book of Matthew presumed copied from an earlier manuscript and preserved by Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut Ibn Shaprut:

"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (maasim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."

Takanot are "reforms that change biblical law" and Ma'asim are "acts or deeds that serve as precedent."

This seems a reasonable account considering the repeated rebukes of Y'shua about the religious reforms of the P'rushim. But this isn't really necessary to make the point that the rulers of Judea were taking liberties with their legal decisions. They certainly were not supposed to set precedents that diminished Torah. They certainly were not to rule on spiritual matters.

Spiritual matters were to be determined by the Cohen before God. It was God for instance, that was supposed to decide if a wife suspected of infidelity was actually unfaithful, not the rulers of Israel.

Forgive my ignorance here, I'm still learning, but do you mean they should have used the Urim and Thummim?

visionary · Feb 12, 2014

Rachel Rachel said:
Forgive my ignorance here, I'm still learning, but do you mean they should have used the Urim and Thummim?

Torah has a specific ceremony performed by priests on discovering the infidelity and it wasn't using the Urim and Thummim.

Numbers 5:18
And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

Rachel Rachel · Feb 12, 2014

visionary said:
Torah has a specific ceremony performed by priests on discovering the infidelity and it wasn't using the Urim and Thummim.

I'm a little confused. Numbers 5 is concerning "fidelity" but how could this test be used to learn YHVH's will in all matters?

quoting Phillip Hawley, "Spiritual matters were to be determined by the Cohen before God. It was God for instance, that was supposed to decide if a wife suspected of infidelity was actually unfaithful, not the rulers of Israel."

Yahudim · Feb 12, 2014

No Dear Rachel,

...that is not what is being said. However, it should be noted that another translation of this same passage indicates a different meaning. This translation of the text suggests the Elders of Israel had made revisions to the plain meaning or scripture based on their traditions and were maintaining a set of precedent decisions based on their error thereby compounding their error. It is basically saying, listen to them as long as they are reading Torah. The rest of the time, not so much.

My take on this verse is that they were the official ruling body of Judea in addition to their role as religious leaders. As government leaders, they should be obeyed. While adhering to Torah, likewise follow them. But it is clear that Y'shua did not agree with their decisions that '...made the commandments of God of none effect.'

Rachel Rachel said:
Forgive my ignorance here, I'm still learning, but do you mean they should have used the Urim and Thummim?

visionary · Feb 12, 2014

Rachel Rachel said:
I'm a little confused. Numbers 5 is concerning "fidelity" but how could this test be used to learn YHVH's will in all matters?

quoting Phillip Hawley, "Spiritual matters were to be determined by the Cohen before God. It was God for instance, that was supposed to decide if a wife suspected of infidelity was actually unfaithful, not the rulers of Israel."

Something that is known to have a bad effect of the stomach has no effect on the innocent... I would say God has something to do with that.

danny ski · Feb 12, 2014

Curious subject to say the least. The Rabbinic body has no authority over Christians nor Christians have any over Jewish powers that be. There's no overlap

Rachel Rachel · Feb 12, 2014

visionary said:
Something that is known to have a bad effect of the stomach has no effect on the innocent... I would say God has something to do with that.

Why do I feel we're discussing 2 totally different posts?

Rachel Rachel · Feb 12, 2014

Phillip Hawley said:
No Dear Rachel,

...that is not what is being said. However, it should be noted that another translation of this same passage indicates a different meaning. This translation of the text suggests the Elders of Israel had made revisions to the plain meaning or scripture based on their traditions and were maintaining a set of precedent decisions based on their error thereby compounding their error. It is basically saying, listen to them as long as they are reading Torah. The rest of the time, not so much.

My take on this verse is that they were the official ruling body of Judea in addition to their role as religious leaders. As government leaders, they should be obeyed. While adhering to Torah, likewise follow them. But it is clear that Y'shua did not agree with their decisions that '...made the commandments of God of none effect.'

Okay, I get you now. Thank you.

daq · Feb 12, 2014

Rachel Rachel said:
Okay, I get you now. Thank you.

Hi Rachel, in keeping with a post-modern crypto apocalyptic shadow theme perhaps the following jaunt might help to shed a little light:

Once upon a turning there was a Eastside Publican standing in the court of the Gentiles praying; and he would not so much as lift up his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his chest, saying, Father be merciful to me a sinner! At that moment a West-End Pharisee passing by said to the Publican; Unless you are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, even the Holy Spirit, you cannot be saved! But fear not, for we have another mega-baptism coming up this Paschal Super Sunday for those who would like to join our mega-congregation. And as the modern shepherd went his way the Publican smote his chest with even more vigor in his penitence, and again cried out, Father be merciful to me a sinner! This time a voice came from the heavens in answer to the Publican, saying, Why are you still hammering your chest? Go and do all that the Pharisee said to do. Then the Publican, standing there dumbstruck, responded in the silence of his heart: How can I, a sinner, be baptized into thy Name? Can my sins be washed away with water? And the voice again answers back and says to the Publican: What is in a name? And the Publican answers; A name implies character and attribute with various associated meanings. And the voice from the heavens answers again, saying, Where is it that My Holy Name is to be found? And the Publican straightway responds, Thy Holy Name is found in Yerushalaim and in all of TaNaK. And the voice from the heavens answers back once more: Go into thy chamber, chamber in thy chambers: open up My Word and let immersion begin! (and the Father sent a malak to lead him in the Way). And it came to pass, after many days walking faithfully in the Word, that the Publican was immersed to the full, (and he was not just a hearer but a doer of the Word). And the appointed time came to pass; that great moed appointment which is appointed of the Father, a day which only the Father knows, and the Daystar from the Anatole sun-rising ascended in his heart. As for the Westender Pharisee it was not long after his encounter with the Publican that he and six of his associates fell into a pool of Cesium-137 and were choked out in a bed of radiated sea kelp somewhere off the Mission Bay coast of San Diego, (on Paschal Super Sunday) and likewise his baptizing was finished.

kcmonseysr · Feb 12, 2014

daq said:
Hi Rachel, in keeping with a post-modern crypto apocalyptic shadow theme perhaps the following jaunt might help to shed a little light:

Once upon a turning there was a Eastside Publican standing in the court of the Gentiles praying; and he would not so much as lift up his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his chest, saying, Father be merciful to me a sinner! At that moment a West-End Pharisee passing by said to the Publican; Unless you are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, even the Holy Spirit, you cannot be saved! But fear not, for we have another mega-baptism coming up this Paschal Super Sunday for those who would like to join our mega-congregation. And as the modern shepherd went his way the Publican smote his chest with even more vigor in his penitence, and again cried out, Father be merciful to me a sinner! This time a voice came from the heavens in answer to the Publican, saying, Why are you still hammering your chest? Go and do all that the Pharisee said to do. Then the Publican, standing there dumbstruck, responded in the silence of his heart: How can I, a sinner, be baptized into thy Name? Can my sins be washed away with water? And the voice again answers back and says to the Publican: What is in a name? And the Publican answers; A name implies character and attribute with various associated meanings. And the voice from the heavens answers again, saying, Where is it that My Holy Name is to be found? And the Publican straightway responds, Thy Holy Name is found in Yerushalaim and in all of TaNaK. And the voice from the heavens answers back once more: Go into thy chamber, chamber in thy chambers: open up My Word and let immersion begin! (and the Father sent a malak to lead him in the Way). And it came to pass, after many days walking faithfully in the Word, that the Publican was immersed to the full, (and he was not just a hearer but a doer of the Word). And the appointed time came to pass; that great moed appointment which is appointed of the Father, a day which only the Father knows, and the Daystar from the Anatole sun-rising ascended in his heart. As for the Westender Pharisee it was not long after his encounter with the Publican that he and six of his associates fell into a pool of Cesium-137 and were choked out in a bed of radiated sea kelp somewhere off the Mission Bay coast of San Diego, (on Paschal Super Sunday) and likewise his baptizing was finished.

daq - your ways of presenting the truth are a rip :clap:

Have you published any of this stuff?

Ken

Steve Petersen · Feb 12, 2014

danny ski said:
Curious subject to say the least. The Rabbinic body has no authority over Christians nor Christians have any over Jewish powers that be. There's no overlap

Except that Jesus put his disciples under the authority of the Sanhedrin.

The Essenes did not.

The Zealots did not.

The Herodians probably did not either.

Rachel Rachel · Feb 12, 2014

daq said:
Hi Rachel, in keeping with a post-modern crypto apocalyptic shadow theme perhaps the following jaunt might help to shed a little light:

Once upon a turning there was a Eastside Publican standing in the court of the Gentiles praying; and he would not so much as lift up his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his chest, saying, Father be merciful to me a sinner! At that moment a West-End Pharisee passing by said to the Publican; Unless you are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, even the Holy Spirit, you cannot be saved! But fear not, for we have another mega-baptism coming up this Paschal Super Sunday for those who would like to join our mega-congregation. And as the modern shepherd went his way the Publican smote his chest with even more vigor in his penitence, and again cried out, Father be merciful to me a sinner! This time a voice came from the heavens in answer to the Publican, saying, Why are you still hammering your chest? Go and do all that the Pharisee said to do. Then the Publican, standing there dumbstruck, responded in the silence of his heart: How can I, a sinner, be baptized into thy Name? Can my sins be washed away with water? And the voice again answers back and says to the Publican: What is in a name? And the Publican answers; A name implies character and attribute with various associated meanings. And the voice from the heavens answers again, saying, Where is it that My Holy Name is to be found? And the Publican straightway responds, Thy Holy Name is found in Yerushalaim and in all of TaNaK. And the voice from the heavens answers back once more: Go into thy chamber, chamber in thy chambers: open up My Word and let immersion begin! (and the Father sent a malak to lead him in the Way). And it came to pass, after many days walking faithfully in the Word, that the Publican was immersed to the full, (and he was not just a hearer but a doer of the Word). And the appointed time came to pass; that great moed appointment which is appointed of the Father, a day which only the Father knows, and the Daystar from the Anatole sun-rising ascended in his heart. As for the Westender Pharisee it was not long after his encounter with the Publican that he and six of his associates fell into a pool of Cesium-137 and were choked out in a bed of radiated sea kelp somewhere off the Mission Bay coast of San Diego, (on Paschal Super Sunday) and likewise his baptizing was finished.

Yes, thank you...I feel totally enlightened now!

daq · Feb 12, 2014

kcmonseysr said:
daq - your ways of presenting the truth are a rip

Have you published any of this stuff?

Ken

Hi Ken, this is truly a serious issue, (especially with the so-called prophecy experts and their paperback prophecy manuals full of food sacrificed to their idol the US greenback twenty-spot). I post the following, which is merely one from many passages as everyone here surely knows, not to condemn anyone but to simply say that I myself have already learned this very thing the hard way.

1 Peter 5:2-3 KJV
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

And I think this is still on-topic too! ^_^

danny ski · Feb 12, 2014

Steve Petersen said:
Except that Jesus put his disciples under the authority of the Sanhedrin.

The Essenes did not.

The Zealots did not.
ad
The Herodians probably did not either.

That was a long time ago. Christianity and Judaism evolved, since. And there's no going back. As I suspect, that approach never worked from the beginning. It certainly feels like both religions adopted adversarial attitudes toward each other. At least that's how the NT reads.

Yahudim · Feb 12, 2014

Danny, I'm impressed!

danny ski said:
That was a long time ago. Christianity and Judaism evolved, since. And there's no going back. As I suspect, that approach never worked from the beginning. It certainly feels like both religions adopted adversarial attitudes toward each other. At least that's how the NT reads.

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