Before Birth

n2thelight · Oct 14, 2013

Der Alter said:
Nonsense, it is not obvious. Twisting scripture to make it support your false assuimptions/presupppositions. I did not say any such nonsense that God created Esau for the purpose of hating him. Rom 9:11 quotes a prophecy of God before Esaus's birth. Rom 9:12 quotes Malachi which was written 100s of years after Esau the man lived. Edom/Esau the land was destroyed after they helped Babylon overthrow Jerusalem. Psalm 137:7

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Do tell,which scripture did I twist,all I did was ask a question concerning the scriptures I posted.....

And my question still stands,why did God hate Esau while he was still in his mother's womb?

Also I did not say you said God created Esau to hate him,I asked did He...Keep up............

Read verse 11 again......

n2thelight · Oct 14, 2013

RDKirk said:
But they deliberately forget that long ago by Gods word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. -- 2 Peter 3.

No, Peter is only talking about the initial Genesis 1 creation of the world and then the Genesis 7 Deluge.

Peter is not talking about the flood of Noah

Let's go to Jeremiah for a second witness

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

In the flood of Noah,there were people on the Ark......

RDKirk · Oct 15, 2013

n2thelight said:
Peter is not talking about the flood of Noah

Let's go to Jeremiah for a second witness

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

In the flood of Noah,there were people on the Ark......

Try putting that back into context. Jeremiah has had a vision of the future wrath of God--not the past. The two areas of scripture are not connected--they are not two witnesses of the same concept.

I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger. 27 This is what the Lord says:
The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.

Evergreen48 · Oct 15, 2013

n2thelight said:
Let's try this again,why did God hate Easu?

God did not hate Esau in the way we generally think of as the meaning of hate. The Hebrew language was a limited language and the Hebrew word sane' (hate) was used in different forms of intensiveness depending on the context in which it is used, e.g. Jacob did not hate Leah in the way that we think of what the word "hate" generally means, for he fathered four sons by her. He simply loved Rachel more. When Malachi quotes God as saying that he loved Jacob but hated Esau, (Malachi 1: 2-3 ) It had nothing to do with the emotions but speaks to the sovereign will of God. He is using a Hebrew idiom which simply meant that he favored Jacob over Esau to be the progenitor of the people who would constitute his chosen nation, and he did not choose him to have a home in heaven one day. The "why" of God's choice of people is not told, and neither is it told why or how he chose whom he did to be a part of his church, that generation after generation would be responsible for heralding the good news of our salvation through Christ our Savior down through the ages even to this present time. But we do know from reading the history of the early church that it was in great hardship as it was persecuted heavily for a while. So perhaps he chose based on his foreknowledge of these people knowing that with his help they would have the fortitude and perseverance necessary to withstand the persecution and hardships that surrounded them. At any rate, we do not find in the scriptures that God did choose some and predestined them to fulfill a specific purpose for him, but we do not find in the scriptures that he chose only some to salvation while leaving all others to perish.

n2thelight · Oct 15, 2013

RDKirk said:
Try putting that back into context. Jeremiah has had a vision of the future wrath of God--not the past. The two areas of scripture are not connected--they are not two witnesses of the same concept.

I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger. 27 This is what the Lord says:
“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.”

I beg to differ,Jeremiah is talking about when God destroyed the first earth age......What in the verses I provided makes you think they are future?

It's the same thing in Genesis,which is past,let's look

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.
In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude.

n2thelight · Oct 15, 2013

Evergreen48 said:
God did not hate Esau in the way we generally think of as the meaning of hate. The Hebrew language was a limited language and the Hebrew word sane' (hate) was used in different forms of intensiveness depending on the context in which it is used, e.g. Jacob did not hate Leah in the way that we think of what the word "hate" generally means, for he fathered four sons by her. He simply loved Rachel more. When Malachi quotes God as saying that he loved Jacob but hated Esau, (Malachi 1: 2-3 ) It had nothing to do with the emotions but speaks to the sovereign will of God. He is using a Hebrew idiom which simply meant that he favored Jacob over Esau to be the progenitor of the people who would constitute his chosen nation, and he did not choose him to have a home in heaven one day. The "why" of God's choice of people is not told, and neither is it told why or how he chose whom he did to be a part of his church, that generation after generation would be responsible for heralding the good news of our salvation through Christ our Savior down through the ages even to this present time. But we do know from reading the history of the early church that it was in great hardship as it was persecuted heavily for a while. So perhaps he chose based on his foreknowledge of these people knowing that with his help they would have the fortitude and perseverance necessary to withstand the persecution and hardships that surrounded them. At any rate, we do not find in the scriptures that God did choose some and predestined them to fulfill a specific purpose for him, but we do not find in the scriptures that he chose only some to salvation while leaving all others to perish.

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

I think the verse is to descriptive to mean anything other but what it says...The elect were predestined,what one needs to do is ask ,why!!!

n2thelight · Feb 22, 2014

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".

Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.

This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.

John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
"Ye must be born again", as we have see, "ye must be born from above." If you are not born from above, that is to say, "born of woman", then you would be either a demonic spirit, or from a fallen angel. This is against God's law and the plan of God.

John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell from whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Jesus is using an analogy here. He is saying you can hear the wind, but you can't see it. You can see the objects that are blown about in the wind, but the flow of the air itself you can not see.

When man's spirit separates from the flesh body, the soul's spirit goes where the soul goes. Man's spirit is the intellect of his soul which is that part of him that controls his soul and tells him what to do. The soul and the spirit are as one. The spirit is where your emotions come from and it gives you the ability to know right from wrong. It is from your spirit that your conscience gives you directions.

Jesus is saying that you cannot see where your spirit goes, for it is like the wind to our flesh senses, when it ascends to the Father. When you are with a loved one at the moment of death, you will not see the soul and spirit depart that physical body at the moment of death. But if you are familiar with that soul, your spirit will know when that soul has departed. Many times it has been reported that the ones that have died have spoken and talked to a loved one that has passed on, just prior to their giving up the spirit of life. God will send an angel to accompany the departing soul, into that transfer of the soul back to the Father that gave it.

Each soul must enter into an embryo once, and live in the human flesh as man [women] once, and during that life time each person has the free will to chose whom he will follow God, or Satan. At the close of this life; at God's appointed time, and for God's purposes, that flesh body is discarded, and the soul departs from the body, and returns to the Father that sent it. There is no transmigration of souls, as is taught in the eastern religions, but one soul, that enters one body, and lives in the body, until God appoints that soul to return home to heaven with Him.

What you do in this body is important, for your works do follow you, and at judgment day that is what you will be judged upon. That is why it becomes important to repent and believe on Jesus Christ, for in Him only is there salvation for your soul and your sins removed your soul's judgment at judgment day.

Paul addresses this in Hebrews 9:27, 28; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" [27] "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation." [28]

When this happens you will not see the transfer of that soul when its spirit going back to our Heavenly Father. In the eons of time this is reality, and what we see with this flesh eyes can be a deception. Though you can not see it, it happens.

John 3:9 "Nicodemus answered and said unto Him, "How can these things be?"

When you do not understand the spiritual realm, then this is a normal question. Nicodemus had seen Jesus perform miracles enough to know that those miracles did not come from the physical realm so they must come from God. Nicodemus is opening his mind up to Jesus for understanding.

John 3:10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Jesus then reverses the question back to Nicodemus; "Are you not a teacher to Israel, and you do not know these things?" This is the same reason that so many fall short in their teaching even today. There are many that claim to be teachers of God's Word, yet they peddle their wears of false teaching for many different reasons. If you have the understanding of God's Word, that is a gift from God, then that knowledge belongs to God. Jesus is telling Nicodemus, you claim to be a teacher, and you don't even know this?

Nicodemus didn't know the Word because he didn't study the word. Nicodemus studied the traditions that were accepted by the religious community of that day. In fact, he was one of the spiritual leaders of that community.

John 3:11 "Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness."

Truly, Truly Jesus is saying to him, I'm sharing these things that I know to be true, and it appears that you are questioning our witness to those words.

John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

Jesus is telling Nicodemus, now that I have told you where and how the soul has come into the flesh and departs to the Father; these things that are fleshly and you still can not understand. There is then no way that you can understand the revelation that Christ brought of the spiritual realm without the Spirit of God. It is impossible.

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Here now is the second witness to those things given, as to how you must be born from above. There is no way that you can make baptism out of this verse. It sums up the whole matter of being born from above.
No man, no one goes to heaven, but that he first was born from above. That soul must first be born of women, where the soul entered the womb at conception, and when the flesh body dies, it is returned to the father. There is not a living being on this earth, that did not come down from the Father first, and at death shall return to the Father. That is just plain common sense.

This doesn't mean that they are all going to have eternal life, but heaven is where the Father is, and that is where the judgment takes place. But what is meant here is in reference to obtaining salvation for their soul, or eternal life. All souls return to the Father, and many of those that do return will be condemned to destruction. The judgment takes place at the time of the great white throne judgment. Until that time, those sinning souls will stay right there in paradise where there is a great gulf between God and the sinning soul This is stated in the parable of the rich man, in Luke 16. There has been no soul destroyed to this date, that has passed on after death.
So what this thirteenth verse is saying, is about being born again. It means that you must be born from above. You can't be as those fallen angels, and take short-cuts, but it must be done according to God's plan of salvation.

john3

MormonFriend · Feb 23, 2014

joneysd said:
it says Jesus is the author and finisher, why do you think we need to do the work, could we earn our salvation without Jesus, so how can we earn it at all, earning your salvation or your extra gifts is like revisiting the law as the jews understood it, it becomes self indulgent, self sufficient, when our eyes should be set upon the author and finisher of our faith, he started it and he will see it to completion if we just leave him to it, i believe Jesus has in mind a finished masterpiece of us all yet some seem to think we need to give him a hand to finish the work, why not just leave it to the one who knows how the masterpiece should finish up.

Once again I ask: "Where did I ever use the word "earn"? Where did I even hint that the works or obedience, that scripture declares is a must for salvation, is a form of earning or paying for Grace?"

Yes, Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation, and as the Author, He wrote the stipulations for which our salvation is given.
Heb. 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

MormonFriend · Feb 23, 2014

n2thelight said:
Originally Posted by Albion
That occurred before any of us was born.

Click to expand...

Yes it did,that's the whole point,Im trying to get people to see,and that is,we were there......

I mean,satan turns evil,and instead of God destroying him and his follower's right then and there,He decides to make man,with satan as his tempter,come on now,what kind of God do you think we serve?

You are saying that Satan "turned" evil? And God created him? Where did this character flaw come from if Satan was created from nothing? And the same for all of us that do not choose to follow God, but rebel?

Satan always was evil. When Satan was introduced into the master plan that God has for all of us to return to Him, Satan's true colors surfaced. And even that is part of God's master plan. The life we were sent to here on earth, was designed to place us in situations of opportunities and choices. The choices we make cause the true colors of our eternal nature (eternal meaning no beginning and no end) to surface, and thus God can judge us righteously by the choices we make without compulsion.

God cannot "destroy" anything, in the concept of obliterating out of existence. His master plan is to separate the wheat from the tares. Even "burning" the tares is to change it into another form. To destroy evil is to identify it, isolate it, and contain it in a realm of eternal prison where it cannot interfere with the realms of glory that He also created.

LegacyJB · Feb 23, 2014

Yes. It's true doctrine from God that we all lived with God before this life. Read Ecclesiastes. It states we return to God. In order to return to somewhere we had to have already been there at one point. All who say we didn't live with God do not comprehend their own worth as His children.

Norah63 · Feb 23, 2014

Mankind not recogonizing their own worth has been the down fall from the beginning till now.
It might be they just want to find a loop hole for no responsibility to their life here in the earth.

St_Worm2 · Feb 23, 2014

LegacyJB said:
Yes. It's true doctrine from God that we all lived with God before this life. Read Ecclesiastes. It states we return to God. In order to return to somewhere we had to have already been there at one point. All who say we didn't live with God do not comprehend their own worth as His children.

Hi LJB, Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the spirit (lit. the "breath" of life) is from God and that it will return to Him who gave it upon our deaths. It teaches us that God is the Giver of life and certainly implies that our lives, once given, continue beyond the grave, but it does not teach us when, where, or how God created our spirits (other than what is implied in context, which is the spirit's creation, not the pre-existence of it).

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Yours and His,
David

Thus saith the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation
of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.

Zechariah 12:1b

LegacyJB · Feb 23, 2014

St_Worm2 said:
Hi LJB, Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the spirit (lit. the "breath" of life) is from God and that it will return to Him who gave it upon our deaths. It teaches us that God is the Giver of life and certainly implies that our lives, once given, continue beyond the grave, but it does not teach us when, where, or how God created our spirits (other than what is implied in context, which is the spirit's creation, not the pre-existence of it).

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Yours and His,
David

Thus saith the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation
of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.

Zechariah 12:1b

No. Like the verse states, we lived with God before this life. To believe contrary is to not really know God.

drstevej · Feb 23, 2014

LegacyJB said:
No. Like the verse states, we lived with God before this life. To believe contrary is to know really know God.

Not sure what this means, is there a typo?

St_Worm2 · Feb 23, 2014

LegacyJB said:
No. Like the verse states, we lived with God before this life.

No (again), Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not teach the pre-existence of our spirits, only that God is the One who gives them to us and it is to the Giver that they will return. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture on your part. Please take a closer look at what I said in my first reply.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - Like drstevej, I wasn't sure what you meant to say in your second sentence.

MormonFriend · Feb 24, 2014

St_Worm2 said:
No (again), Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not teach the pre-existence of our spirits, only that God is the One who gives them to us and it is to the Giver that they will return. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture on your part. Please take a closer look at what I said in my first reply.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - Like drstevej, I wasn't sure what you meant to say in your second sentence.

Then if you don't believe there was a pre-earth existence, or that we had absolutely no existence until God breathed in us our spirits, then you must believe that everything we are is the result of what God made us to become.
Please correct me if wrong, and why.

LegacyJB · Feb 24, 2014

drstevej said:
Not sure what this means, is there a typo?

Yep. It was suppose to say to not really know God. It was from the tablet...

St_Worm2 · Feb 24, 2014

MormonFriend said:
Then if you don't believe there was a pre-earth existence, or that we had absolutely no existence until God breathed in us our spirits, then you must believe that everything we are is the result of what God made us to become.
Please correct me if wrong, and why.

Hi MF, God made man upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) and intended that we live forever in fellowship with Him. We fell. Our bad, not God's.

I'm interested, what is it about a pre-existence that you believe affects what we become (or how we get there) .. :scratch:

Thanks!

--David

n2thelight · Feb 24, 2014

MormonFriend said:
You are saying that Satan "turned" evil? And God created him? Where did this character flaw come from if Satan was created from nothing? And the same for all of us that do not choose to follow God, but rebel?

Satan always was evil. When Satan was introduced into the master plan that God has for all of us to return to Him, Satan's true colors surfaced. And even that is part of God's master plan. The life we were sent to here on earth, was designed to place us in situations of opportunities and choices. The choices we make cause the true colors of our eternal nature (eternal meaning no beginning and no end) to surface, and thus God can judge us righteously by the choices we make without compulsion.

God cannot "destroy" anything, in the concept of obliterating out of existence. His master plan is to separate the wheat from the tares. Even "burning" the tares is to change it into another form. To destroy evil is to identify it, isolate it, and contain it in a realm of eternal prison where it cannot interfere with the realms of glory that He also created.

Satan was not created evil,he became that way....

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
God can and will destroy....It's called the 2nd death....

MormonFriend · Feb 25, 2014

St_Worm2 said:
Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Then if you don't believe there was a pre-earth existence, or that we had absolutely no existence until God breathed in us our spirits, then you must believe that everything we are is the result of what God made us to become.
Please correct me if wrong, and why.

Click to expand...

Hi MF, God made man upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) and intended that we live forever in fellowship with Him. We fell. Our bad, not God's.

The fall is another subject apart from what I am asking, but I see the how it connects. The thought I am expressing is that every individual has character differences that ultimately determine their eternal destiny for good or bad. Cain and Able had the same parents and influence, one was humble and obedient, the other was rebellious and prideful. Where do the seeds of character come from?

The son of perdition (Judas) was prophesied long before he was born. And yet he did not exist in any form or entity before. How can he be judged for being what God created him to be?

St_Worm2 said:
I'm interested, what is it about a pre-existence that you believe affects what we become (or how we get there) ..

Thanks!

--David

The term is better expressed as pre-earth existence. It is quite simple, actually. The seeds of our character come from what and who we were before the advent of our earth life. The experiences in life cause our true colors to sprout, and we can choose to be refined through repentance, which requires enduring to the end of our trials.

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