God's Hate, Love, and Predestination

I've been pondering this topic for a couple weeks straight now. Although I have known of all these for months, they never really clicked. Since I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God, I will use it to conclusively prove my point. After all, what good is our earthly logic when it is up against God's wisdom? (Obviously is serves us no good if they are opposing each other.)

It is a popular "Christian" phrase that says, "Jesus loves you." When we say this, we are using using it all inclusively to say, "God loves everyone." From studying the Bible (Isa 1:18, Acts 17:11, 2Tim 2:15 if you want scriptures on why to study the Bible), I found that this concept falls short of having a Biblical foundation. Many say, "God doesn't hate the sinner; He hates the sin," but I would like to show you scriptures that I found that prove this to be false.

There are 4 scriptures, that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does hate the sinner and the sin. I will qualify this statement later, but for now I will leave it at that. Psalms 5:5, 11:5, Malachi 1:2-3, and Romans 9:13, all speak of God's hate. We see from the verses in Malachi (quoted from in Romans) that God hated Esau, and we also see in the verses in Psalms that He hates the worker of iniquity (the lover of violence).

The verse, I use to bridge God's hate and love is (of course) John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begoten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Now, you are free to disagree with me on this point, but I believe that this verse is saying God loved the world before the fall. Before the fall, God had fellowship and communion with Adam and Eve; I believe He loved it and sent Jesus to regain this fellowship. I believe this for a few reasons. 1. The verses saying God hates sin and sinners. 2. Love of the world is emnity toward God, and God is not His own enemy. 3. Love is in the past tense, but believes is in the present. 4. I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It has no contradictions, and if it did mean this current world that would contradict with the first to points.

Now we see by Matthew 15:14, John 3:16, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:1, and 4:10, that God loves His elect. If you are to be a friend of Jesus (according to His own words), you must follow His commands. The only way for you to follow His commands is through love of His and the Spirit inpowering you to do such. So that verse would only apply to Christians. Obviously the ones in Romans and 1 John are written to Christians.

While debating an atheist a couple weeks ago, he said, "If God loves me so much I will go to heaven." When I told him about God's hate and that if he went to his grave denying God that God never loved him, but hated him, the atheist then said, "Well, what kind of God is that. I didn't ask to be born, but even before I was born I was hated by Him." Now many are called, few are chosen. This verse shows us that some do not have a chance to come to God, and some (if not most) that do have a chance don't accept His free gift. This takes us into Romans 9 again. Starting at verse 14 to basicly the end of the chapter. As with all the other verses I've quoted here, it would be good for you to go read them for yourself to get the context and prayfully consider them all. The basic things that Paul states very clearly is that God has the choice whether to harden or show mercy to anyone He chooses. We see that God makes the vessels of wrath (those which are going to hell) to show His great love for those vessels of honor on which He has chosen to show His mercy. I believe as it says in 1 Peter that we are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. Meaning God has seen everything we have done and puts us where we chose to go, but I do not believe that everyone has a choice. 1. Because Many not all are called. 2. Because Romans 9.

The picture of predestination paints a perfect picture of God's hate and love at the same time. It shows God's love because He didn't have to save anyone, but those vessels of honor will relize that it is only because God saved them that they were able to get into heaven and be with Him. They will forevermore know His love. Those vessels of wrath of whom God endures with great patience, will forevermore know and feel God's hate. If God only hated their sin, then why wouldn't He just cast away their sins as His does with His chosen? It is His hate for the sin and the sinner that is the cause of them going to hell. This will show God's elect how very much He hates sin. When we see this justice, goodness, hate, and righteousness in Him, we will then be evermore greatful for God's love, grace and mercy He has shown on us. Because we could (and should) be in that same place. So by this, we will both see and understand God's love and hate.

This is what I shared with the atheist, and what I have now shared with you. I pray that you will search the scripture to judge what I said. If you have anything to add or subtract from this feel free to post the scriptures that make you think differently with a little explaination. I will explain further if anyone has any questions on something I didn't make clear.

-Elijah (2 Tim 2:15, 3:16-17, Rev 3:19, Heb 10:31, 2 Cor 5:11)
Get to know God and His Word, do what you find, and everything will fall into place.

I'll read those verses in context and all and post back about that later, but I have one quick question.

You said that the hate was figurate, and that God does not have emotions as we have them. Why then do you believe He loves anyone? Wouldn't that also just be figurate speech?

You said "... that would go against all that God is- love." If God is all love, then why is their a hell? Obviously He is not all love. He is justice, righteousness, goodness, love, mercy, grace, et al. He is not hate, but He does hate as we see in these verses.

Also you said, "God is a jealous God, and He can get angry, but not in a literal sense." Does this mean all those times we see in the Bible it says "And the anger of the Lord burned against them that He might utterly destroy them...." I only ask because when His figurate or spiritual anger burned against them, they experienced it very much physically.

You used Romans 3:4 as follows, "In Romans 3:4 God tells us that every man is a liar, but he still loves us, and does not hate us." The verse says, "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." When I read 3:4 in the context of 3:3 "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect," I can find no reference to the love or hate of God. These verses say basicly just because people don't believe in God doesn't mean He is not true. But rather if no one believes in God, then let everyone be a liar and God be true. These verses say that God is not a God of popular opinion. He is who He is and no one can change Him.

Anyway, I'll read the rest of your verses and get back to you.

Elijah (Hos 4:6, Jude 3)

Sorry it has taken me so long to post back. I'm in Atlanta now. It took a while to get into a good rutine so I could post again.

Claire,

Glad to see you are thinking about it at least. In answer to your first question, not everyone is called to be God's child. Matthew 22:14 says that many are called but few are chosen. So the answer to your second question as you can see is 'no'. For instance, Pharoah was a vessel of wrath according to Romans 9. God hardened Pharoahs heart many times. When Pharoah was told to let God's people go, God hardened His heart many times. He did this to let His power be known. So that God's people, all lowly slaves, would be delivered from the hands of the mightiest nation on Earth at that time. Then everyone would glorify God for His grace upon them. You can start at Ex. 4:21 and read till the end of chapter 14. You will see many times how God hardened His heart so he would have no choice but to (in the end) be destroyed by God Himself in the Red Sea with His whole army.

I know of no verse stating that everyone would hear the gospel. If there was one it would be a big hit on Bible infalliblity, because there are many that have not heard and will not hear. As in a very many, sucluded tribes in Africa and South America that no one has spoke to. You may be thinking of the verse that states the Heavens and the Earth declare the glory of the Lord, but it would be hard to get a salvation message out of the stars.

Thanks for your questions. If you have more, feel free.

Hervey,

Once again, I will start with the same question I did last time. If you believe God's hate, anger, and wrath are figurative, then why do you believe God's love is litural? You must use the same rule when you translate these.

You said, "In the age of grace we live in today, there is not going to be the consequences that occured to Israel in the OT, or those who were enemies of Israel in the OT." 1. What age of grace? We have uncurable diseases all around us. Just think about it. AIDS sprung up many years ago. It is said to have its beginning within the homosexual community. Now it has spread to many fornicators and adulturers. Cancer and many other diseases are all results of sin and God's wrath. God, in His wrath and anger, cursed the ground in the fall. Thorns, earthquakes, hurricanes, even oil reminds of God's wrath and anger. God is not sending fire balls to blow up cities anymore. God uses the vessels of dishonor which He made to be destroyed. Sept 11 could only have happened if God allowed it. It was a blow to the biggest signs of pride and wealth to the most prideful and wealthy nation on Earth.

"Vengence sounds like he is not loving, but judgemental." To this I would once again refer to my first question. Also, love and judgement can not be seperated. If you love someone, but will not judge what they do wrong as wrong and let them continue, they will fall and you were no friend to them. If you judge someone without loving them enough to correct them in meekness of spirit, then you will destroy them yourself, and you are no friend to them. Paul put it well when writing to the Philippians (1:9), "Let your love abound more and more, in all knowledge and judgement." If you have no knowledge you can not judge. Both of them and the word. You must study to word to show yourself approved as a workman of God not needing to be ashamed (2 Tim 2:15), and you must know them personally or you can not judge what they are doing.

The next many sentences you wrote once again just use this waivering rule which would have us believe that God has no emotions (as we know them) but love. If God didn't have our emotions (besides love of course), then from where did our emotions come? We are made in the likeness and image of God. God's thoughts are above our thoughts (obvoiusly). God can see everything in its eternal place. We can only see things in their temporal place, but this has no bearing on emotions so I will leave it at that.

"Remember that we all have free will...." This is a fundemental flaw. God as Romans 9 states does not give everyone a choice. Judas was predestined for destruction. If he did not betray Jesus, what would have happened? The people were praising Jesus as Messiah just a few days earlier. God's plan for him was to betray His only Son and be destroyed for the glory of God to show His love of His chosen.

"We are told by God to love one another, and if you hate your brother, you are a liar and a murderer. How can God do what he tells us not to do? Would not that be a contradiction by God, if we say God hates people literally? That is why I told you , that God can hate, but that it is only in the figurative, and not in the literal. Figurative-meaning the spiritual." Well, a few mistakes here. In my usual fashion, I will answer all your questions (rhetorical and not). One thing i believe you missed here is pretty simple. You can see it in the first word of this quote. WE. We are told. God is not; we are. This could very well be because we are not God. We have sin; He has none. We barely know a fraction of 1% of all the knowledge and wisdom in the universe, but God knows 100%. It is easy to see why we, the scum , flith, imperfect, ignorant creatures that we are, are told not to hate. There is no way for us to have justified hate. To your second question, it is very simple. There is no contradiction, because one is refering to God and the other to humans. Now that we have that understood it would be easy to change that stance, since as you said that was the reason you thought it to be figurative.

Since I have already explained John 3:16 in my very first post, which since you posted to it I'm sure you already read it, I will just post the basic idea here (again). God so LOVED the world. It is past tense. Where as "whosoever believes" is present tense. Since you have both tenses used you can't change one to the other. So you cannot say that God loves the world. You would be limited to saying God loved the world, and that has already been explained.

Elijah (--->1 Tim 1:5<---, Hosea 4:6, 2 Tim 2:15, Acts 17:11)