Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

CGL1023 · Jul 8, 2013

HopelessJen said:
I'm really concerned and hoping someone can help me with this issue. I've been reading many articles lately and am strongly convinced that we can lose our salvation. I know it says no one can snatch us out of God's hands once we are saved, but the way I now understand it, this means that we cannot be snatched out of his hands by outside sources. In other words, we CAN fall away from his grace--through continuing in sin knowingly, which is sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Here is what I posted in another forum but didn't receive a response to. Please let me know your thoughts:

It appears to me that we are only saved by grace through faith in Christ and not through works of our own flesh. However, once we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit, we then live out our faith through works. In fact, it's the works that demonstrate our faith. So it's not that works save us--they don't initially save us (God does when we commit to his son and lifestyle)---it's that if we really truly decide to follow Christ, we will, from that point on, do our best to live for him without willfully practicing sin.
Sadly, I feel like many of are doomed. I have committed sins, knowing that they were wrong (like over-eating--lack of moderation-- or gossiping, etc.). I am very sorrowful that I have done these things, fully knowing they were wrong. But I wish I could change my ways. I am not happy about these things in the least.
Anyway, I don't know to what point someone loses their salvation, but it sounds like people can. Jesus said "be ye perfect just as your father in Heaven is perfect." This is impossible to do before we are saved, but it is expected after we receive Christ. Well at least it is expected that we strive to be perfect and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If we aren't trying hard to be as perfect as Christ, it would seem we aren't saved.
The thing I'm confused about is what if we WANT to be more eager to please God? I am eager to please God, but sometimes in the moment I give in to temptation, which I should not be doing. Does this mean I am not saved and still have a chance to be saved or that I was saved and messed up and now don't belong to Christ anymore? Or is there still time on this earth to repent and make things right with God?
Is there still hope for me and/or others like me? I haven't killed anyone, but I've been angry in my heart even after I've been a Christian and Jesus said that even if you are angry with someone, it's as if you've killed them. I'm not knowingly holding a grudge anymore, but even so, I have done things like that. I am just wondering how many of us have done what most people think to be "little sins" and maybe we have lost our salvation because, nevertheless, those so-called little sins are still disobeying God and his Holy Spirit. Isn't that the sin that can't be forgiven? Denying the Holy Spirit, as in we do something we know to be wrong? I know it is wrong to eat too much but I have a binge eating problem and do it almost every day. I should be turning down extra food, but I don't, for example.

You say, "I know it says no one can snatch us out of God's hands once we are saved, but the way I now understand it, this means that we cannot be snatched out of his hands by outside sources. In other words, we CAN fall away from his grace--through continuing in sin knowingly, which is sinning against the Holy Spirit."

I think there is a little more to it than what you say. To me you have got to be in agreement with God to use His Word effectively. I would say that you could be snatched out ... if you were not in agreement with God and therefore His Word. Throughout the day we make choices. Each of our choices should reflect agreement with God.

Albion · Jul 8, 2013

CGL1023 said:
I think there is a little more to it than what you say. To me you have got to be in agreement with God to use His Word effectively. I would say that you could be snatched out ... if you were not in agreement with God and therefore His Word.

If true, that would mean that you COULD be snatched out of his hand. So that can't be it.

OntheHorizon · Jul 8, 2013

I think the simple thing is do you really expect someone who chooses to deny and oppose god to be kept in him forever ?

Say I no longer want Jesus in my life, am I still saved?
Are the athiests who used to be christians saved?

Faith is required to bring us god but only once and then faith is never needed again?

Maybe you would say " well that's not possible " but that would make the argument irrelevant, not invalid. The bible says hes a gentleman who will knock and wait... he's not a kidnapper of your soul and that your will is absolutely controlled by him so you'd never be able to change your mind isn't a biblical theme. That sin and evil exist BECAUSE we can choose is the common theme. If Adam chose to walk away why can't you?

Johnnz · Jul 8, 2013

If we think of salvation as something apart from God we can get into a 'do I still have it?' kind of thinking. But if we see relationship with God as what the gospel is primarily about then it is a matter of whether or not I chose to stay related. God and what He offers does not change, only my responsiveness to Him.

John
NZ

Albion · Jul 8, 2013

Johnnz said:
If we think of salvation as something apart from God we can get into a 'do I still have it?' kind of thinking. But if we see relationship with God as what the gospel is primarily about then it is a matter of whether or not I chose to stay related. God and what He offers does not change, only my responsiveness to Him.

John
NZ

I agree with a lot of that. Perhaps if we said that the Gospel is about a relationship and God does not change, therefore he doesn't lose--us.

aiki · Jul 8, 2013

I think the simple thing is do you really expect someone who chooses to deny and oppose god to be kept in him forever ?

Well, one of the very wonderful things about being in a relationship with God is that He doesn't behave as we do. God didn't save us because there was something worthy in us of being saved. He saved us because He is a loving, merciful and faithful God. Why, then, do we think that when we become unlovely, and shake our fist under His nose, and reject Him that He will respond in kind? We were in this condition before we were saved and it didn't stop God from working to bring us to salvation.

Say I no longer want Jesus in my life, am I still saved?
Are the athiests who used to be christians saved?

No one can say with absolute certainty. However, the Bible makes it pretty clear that those who "went out from us were not of us." When one truly "tastes and sees that Lord is good," when one comes into the spiritual richness and wonder of real fellowship with God, do you really think anything else could induce one to wholesale abandon such fellowship? So many turn from God claiming to have once been His, but when they are questioned and describe their experience of walking with their Maker, it is nothing like what the Bible says their experience should be. Instead, the Christian-turned-atheist, in my experience, has always suffered from a profound lack of any of the beauty and fulfillment that truly walking with God entails. I find, then, that the Bible is correct: They went out from us because they were not truly of us." (1Jn. 2:19)

If Adam chose to walk away why can't you?

Adam didn't "choose to walk away." He didn't understand the full consequences of his sinful choice when he made it. And God never abandoned Adam and Eve. He continued to be their God and to bless them even though they no longer walked together in Eden.

Selah.

Albion · Jul 8, 2013

aiki said:
Well, one of the very wonderful things about being in a relationship with God is that He doesn't behave as we do. God didn't save us because there was something worthy in us of being saved. He saved us because He is a loving, merciful and faithful God. Why, then, do we think that when we become unlovely, and shake our fist under His nose, and reject Him that He will respond in kind? We were in this condition before we were saved and it didn't stop God from working to bring us to salvation.

The discussion needed a good dose of that kind of sound thinking.

No one can say with absolute certainty. However, the Bible makes it pretty clear that those who "went out from us were not of us." When one truly "tastes and sees that Lord is good," when one comes into the spiritual richness and wonder of real fellowship with God, do you really think anything else could induce one to wholesale abandon such fellowship? So many turn from God claiming to have once been His, but when they are questioned and describe their experience of walking with their Maker, it is nothing like what the Bible says their experience should be. Instead, the Christian-turned-atheist, in my experience, has always suffered from a profound lack of any of the beauty and fulfillment that truly walking with God entails. I find, then, that the Bible is correct: They went out from us because they were not truly of us." (1Jn. 2:19)

An important point that some people, as sincere as they are, never understand. To their way of thinking, God either showers all mankind with his grace indiscriminately, like grass seed, and takes what he gets...or else he cares very deeply about those who are his by Faith, but if they falter, well, it's "easy come, easy go." Yet, if we think of a human parent, we think of someone who will not just brush off a wayward child when he gets headstrong, uncertain, confused, or the like. But this is how Almighty God, Our Father, in all his wisdom,is imagined by them to operate.

OntheHorizon · Jul 8, 2013

Aiki

But is " no true christian would ever leave " a clear biblical theme or even a valid argument?

Did you consider the problem Paul was dealing with in the book of Galatians, what he was trying to avoid and the words he warned them with in ch 5?

That no christian would ever change their mind is an ideal, a goal, an aspiration, not a fact. We are not controlled by god. Look around these forums at the struggling doubting christians... are they illegitimate?

and such an idea simply isn't a solid argument on whether something is true or can happen, its only trivializing it.

then this idea that real christians can't change or won't change obligates you to deciding who is and is not a christian.

aiki · Jul 8, 2013

Aiki

But is " no true christian would ever leave " a clear biblical theme or even a valid argument?

A valid argument? I didn't offer it as an argument, but as an observation. It was the same observation made centuries ago by the apostle John.

Did you consider the problem Paul was dealing with in the book of Galatians, what he was trying to avoid and the words he warned them with in ch 5?

Please be more specific.

That no christian would ever change their mind is an ideal, a goal, an aspiration, not a fact.

Change their mind about their salvation? I disagree that genuine salvation is merely an ideal or aspiration. And so, apparently, would the apostle John.

We are not controlled by god.

LOL! Um, yes we are. Good grief, every moment we exist we do so by God's will and sustaining power. In a very real and fundmental sense we most definitely are controlled by God. Does God force us to obey and love Him? No. But He does bend His considerable divine power to persuading us to do so. And His power to persuade far exceeds our capacity to resist.

Look around these forums at the struggling doubting christians... are they illegitimate?

I think many of the struggles and doubts "Christians" submit to these forums are the result either of not being truly saved, or not being properly discipled, or being disobedient to God's will.

Selah.

OntheHorizon · Jul 8, 2013

aiki

This " disobedience to gods will " that you speak of in the same breath as asserting that true christians wouldn't or couldn't decide to go back... is interesting?

You are so quick to consider the christian as disobedient or illegitimate but so adamant that christians ont or can't change their minds about following Christ. How's that work? How are you so confident in them yet so critical of them?

You claim god controls us while claiming we are disobeying?

You admit that you cannot argue that christians cannot change their minds about following god. So why DO you think christians salvation can't be undone if you think that?

aiki · Jul 9, 2013

This " disobedience to gods will " that you speak of in the same breath as asserting that true christians wouldn't or couldn't decide to go back... is interesting?

You don't see a difference between disobedience and apostasy? A soldier may, against the rules, sneak a nip of whisky while on guard duty, but this doesn't mean he wants to fight for the enemy or abandon the army to which he belongs.

You are so quick to consider the christian as disobedient or illegitimate but so adamant that christians ont or can't change their minds about following Christ.

How's that work? How are you so confident in them yet so critical of them?

Confident of them? No, I'm not particularly confident of the Christian's ability to "persevere unto the end." I am confident, though, in the keeping power of God and in His faithfulness.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24Faithful is he that calls you, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

I think I've already explained in my earlier posts "how it works" that a believer will continue to walk with God even when sin crops up in their life. Feel free to re-read them.

You claim god controls us while claiming we are disobeying?

Yup. On a very fundamental level God controls us all. He decides our personality and physical attributes; He determines the length of our life; He chooses into which family we will be born. And so on. Does our disobedience change any of these things? Not at all. You see, then, that God's Sovereignty and our disobedience are not mutually exclusive things.

You admit that you cannot argue that christians cannot change their minds about following god. So why DO you think christians salvation can't be undone if you think that?

I've made several posts in this thread already answering this very question. Apparently, you've neglected to read them. If you really desire to have my answer to this question, just scroll through the thread and read my posts.

Selah.

Johnnz · Jul 9, 2013

"Yup. On a very fundamental level God controls us all. He decides our personality and physical attributes; He determines the length of our life; He chooses into which family we will be born. And so on. Does our disobedience change any of these things? Not at all. You see, then, that God's Sovereignty and our disobedience are not mutually exclusive things."

There is not any accurate biblical support for any of that. The implications of some statements there are horrendous.

John
NZ

OntheHorizon · Jul 9, 2013

aiki

calm down guy, youre not making sense and you just seem grumpy. You cant claim that god controls us in a way that is relevant to the topic of our choices while saying disobedience to him is such an important theme.

Man you say a lot about nothin.

While apostasy and disobedience have different definitions, one makes the other possible.

aiki · Jul 9, 2013

calm down guy, youre not making sense and you just seem grumpy.

Um, I am calm...I'm not grumpy, either. Maybe you're a little touchy. Just a thought.

You cant claim that god controls us in a way that is relevant to the topic of our choices while saying disobedience to him is such an important theme.

Uh, where did I say disobedience to God was an "important theme"? You may not think the fundamental way God controls us is relevant to how we make our daily choices to obey Him or not, but it is relevant to the unqualified assertion that "we are not controlled by God," which is what you claimed.

Man you say a lot about nothin.

Now who's being grumpy?

While apostasy and disobedience have different definitions, one makes the other possible.

So? Disobedience, as I pointed out, doesn't necessarily lead to apostasy, or even indicate that such a thing is on a believer's radar.

Selah.

aiki · Jul 9, 2013

"Yup. On a very fundamental level God controls us all. He decides our personality and physical attributes; He determines the length of our life; He chooses into which family we will be born. And so on. Does our disobedience change any of these things? Not at all. You see, then, that God's Sovereignty and our disobedience are not mutually exclusive things."

There is not any accurate biblical support for any of that. The implications of some statements there are horrendous.

You sure about that? I don't say things about God I can't back up from Scripture. Consider the following:

He decides our personality and physical attributes:

Psalms 22:9; 139:13 - 16
Luke 11:39, 40

He determines the length of our life:

Exodus 11:5
Numbers 20:24
2 Kings 1:17
2 Kings 19:7
Hebrew 9:27

He chooses into which family we will be born.

1Samuel 1:5
Acts 17:26
Genesis 29:31
Isaiah 66:9

God's Sovereignty and our disobedience are not mutually exclusive things:

Psalms 2:1-5
1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:

Genesis 50:20
Psalms 47:7, 8
Psalms 135:6

Selah.

OntheHorizon · Jul 9, 2013

aiki

It does not follow from your assertions that a person cannot or will not decide to leave god. That we disobey him all the time means we can. You made disobedience an important theme by using it to describe the struggling christians. To show that we disobeyed god proves your idea that controls in a relevant context as false. Yes you do need to calm down.

You said disobdience and apostasy aren't the same, I said duh doesn't matter and you said... so?
Do you ever follow a thought through to it's finish?

OntheHorizon · Jul 9, 2013

The bible is pretty clear that God desires that no one perish so apparently not even god gets everything he wants. He doesn't control us.

sdowney717 · Jul 9, 2013

aiki said:
When God adopts one of us into His family, it is entirely His doing. He draws us to Himself, illuminates our understanding sufficiently to respond positively to the grace and forgiveness He offers in His Son, and persuades us of the necessity of yielding ourselves in repentance to Him. Our salvation is all of God. In light of this, it appears that we do not have the liberty, nor the capacity, to undo what God has done in saving us. He adopted us; we did not adopt Him. Our inclusion into God's family is by God's initiative, not our own.

How, then, can we think we have the power to undo what God has done? We may wish to walk away, but God never does. He loved us and worked to save us when we were "enemies toward Him in our minds by wicked works," "dead in trespasses and sins," and "children of disobedience." When God embarked upon the course that would eventually bring us to salvation, He did not ask our permission before He began to do so; for if He had, we would have told Him, "No." And God does not rest our continued relationship to Him upon our desire to have it continue. Just as God took the initiative in bringing us into His family very much against our initial sinful inclinations, He takes the initiative in maintaining our status as "joint-heirs with Christ" even when we may feel inclined to divorce ourselves from Him. Our unfaithfulness toward God does not force God to be unfaithful toward us. He will uphold His adoption of us even when we seek to abandon it.

Hebrews 13:5
5...For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

We see a wonderful picture of God's attitude toward His children when they forsake Him in the parable of the Prodigal Son. While the fellowship between father and son was broken by the rebellious sin of the son, the relationship of the son to the father was never dissolved. The father waited in anxious hope of the return of his wicked son. Never did he move to abandon his son. And when the Prodigal returned, it was to the glad embrace of a loving father.

Selah.

Yes very good our God to us!
God actually does enforce or control circumstances that are designed by HIM to bring us back to HIM when we wander away. Some of you might understand this truth in the story Jesus told about leaving the 99 sheep to go after the one that wandered away. Jesus of course always knows where we are. The story is the shepherd goes searching and when he finds HIS lost sheep, brings it back to the fold. He actively goes after those who are HIS, those that are HIS lost sheep.

As Paul says in Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1 is more explicit yet still saying the same thing again

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

He saves us for His own good pleasure, according to His own purposes.
Scripture says HE, God, works ALL THINGS, this leaves nothing out, according to the counsel of His will. So all things are of God.

In fact Paul says this also when talking of becoming a new creation.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

In Truth God through Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith. Our faith is a gift from God.

Philippians 1

27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit,[e] striving together as one for the faith of the gospel 28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

30 since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

There is that word granted, your faith, your belief is God's gift to those HE has chosen.

Johnnz · Jul 9, 2013

I thought you would be back on this one. Time and space will limit my reply for now.

aiki said:
You sure about that? I don't say things about God I can't back up from Scripture. Consider the following:

He decides our personality and physical attributes:

Psalms 22:9; 139:13 - 16
Luke 11:39, 40

Ps 22:9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast. NIV Nothing there.

Ps 139:13-17 For you created my inmost being;you knit me together in my mother's womb. Poetic expression reflecting on God being aware of him in his mother's womb
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful,I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. NIV
Again he is seen by God in the womb. Day's ordained can mean what God has chosen him to do, not there are a set number of days

Luke 11:39-41 39 Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside [the dish] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. NIV. I'm not sure why you included these verses

He determines the length of our life:

Exodus 11:5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.NIV
Numbers 20:24 "Aaron will be gathered to his people. He will not enter the land I give the Israelites, because both of you rebelled against my command at the waters of Meribah. NIV
2 Kings 1:17 17 So he died, according to the word of the Lord that Elijah had spoken. NIV
2 Kings 19:7 Listen! I am going to put such a spirit in him that when he hears a certain report, he will return to his own country, and there I will have him cut down with the sword.'" NIV

All of these are about some judgement, that do not support a generalised doctrine of each person having a predetermined lifespan.

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, NIV No Christian disputes we only die once as we are now.
More later if I can find some time.

Bless you
John
NZ

So lonely · Jul 10, 2013

Remember this Christian walk is a journey where we will experience ups and downs. The important thing is for us is to press toward the prize of the high calling by confessing our struggles to God and asking Him to grant us the strength to overcome. We need to die daily to Christ. God sees and knows your heart and He is not willing that any should perish but that all of us repent therefore, it is evident that God loves us unconditionally.

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