Meaning of the word "host" in "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts"

Struggling Sinner said:

I didn't know until recently that when we talk about God being the Lord of hosts that the word "host" means army. So in the Mass when we say, "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts" what we are saying is "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of [angelic] armies" Related to this is how the Church on earth is called the Church Militant. Anyway, just wanted to share.

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Yes! That is right!

In the Latin version of this prayer, it goes like this:
Sanctus [3X] Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
That Sabaoth is an untranslated version of the Hebrew " יהוה צבאות" transliterated as "Yahweh Tzevaot" or "Sabaoth" which means "Army".

The Lord Himself is a King of a massive army that is even greater than all of our military forces combined. Such is a thing that brings extreme awe into all of humanity's sight. Who knows what, that army might even cover all of space regardless of their shapes and sizes. Like galaxies clustering one after another while we here on Earth are just marble balls or even smaller, an airsoft pellet that gazed upon them in their sheer number yet their King is greater than them altogether.

Azureknight 773 said:

Yes! That is right!

In the Latin version of this prayer, it goes like this:
Sanctus [3X] Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
That Sabaoth is an untranslated version of the Hebrew " יהוה צבאות" transliterated as "Yahweh Tzevaot" or "Sabaoth" which means "Army".

The Lord Himself is a King of a massive army that is even greater than all of our military forces combined. Such is a thing that brings extreme awe into all of humanity's sight. Who knows what, that army might even cover all of space regardless of their shapes and sizes. Like galaxies clustering one after another while we here on Earth are just marble balls or even smaller, an airsoft pellet that gazed upon them in their sheer number yet their King is greater than them altogether.

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And that goes with Jesus saying, "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?" (Matt. 26:53).

Azureknight 773 said:

In the Latin version of this prayer, it goes like this:
Sanctus [3X] Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
That Sabaoth is an untranslated version of the Hebrew " יהוה צבאות" transliterated as "Yahweh Tzevaot" or "Sabaoth" which means "Army".

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I think there's a slight mistake here. Isn't the "Dominus" what is there for "HaShem (I don't write what you put there)" and tzevaot what means "sabaoth"? Because HaShem or Adonai when we say it in the prayer is G-d and tzevaot is what we translate as hosts.

LoAmmi said:

I think there's a slight mistake here. Isn't the "Dominus" what is there for "HaShem (I don't write what you put there)" and tzevaot what means "sabaoth"? Because HaShem or Adonai when we say it in the prayer is G-d and tzevaot is what we translate as hosts.

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"Dominus Deus" is of course LORD God and "Sabaoth" comes from a Latin transliteration of a Greek transliteration of the word "tzevaot".

Sarcalogos Deus said:

"Dominus Deus" is of course LORD God and "Sabaoth" comes from a Latin transliteration of a Greek transliteration of the word "tzevaot".

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That's what I thought. The way it was written was giving me a different impression. Thanks for clearing that up.

LoAmmi said:

That's what I thought. The way it was written was giving me a different impression. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Glad to be of service. Also as a bit of information for everyone here; we get our word "Hosts" from the Latin "Hostis" (personal enemy), through the Old French word "Hoste".

LoAmmi said:

The phrase didn't originate in English.

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So.

If Fantine is uncomfortable with the connotations of God having an army, the fact is that God does not have an army in the literal sense of the word. Descriptions of God and the eternal reality are always broader than the human words we use.

(And for that matter, the concepts for different usages of the same word in human language carry implications without insisting on them.)

There are reasons we use that image for Gods hosts, it communicates something important, but on the other hand there is no necessity to think it has all the same implications that we would apply to an earthly army or host.

Even if we want to insist on militaristic imagery, and I see no good reason to exclude it and many not to, it still gives us the question, why and in what way do we consider Gods host to be army-like.

If someone does not really get that imagery, there is no reason to dwell to much on it.

MKJ said:

So.

If Fantine is uncomfortable with the connotations of God having an army, the fact is that God does not have an army in the literal sense of the word. Descriptions of God and the eternal reality are always broader than the human words we use.

(And for that matter, the concepts for different usages of the same word in human language carry implications without insisting on them.)

There are reasons we use that image for Gods hosts, it communicates something important, but on the other hand there is no necessity to think it has all the same implications that we would apply to an earthly army or host.

Even if we want to insist on militaristic imagery, and I see no good reason to exclude it and many not to, it still gives us the question, why and in what way do we consider Gods host to be army-like.

If someone does not really get that imagery, there is no reason to dwell to much on it.

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Too true. As a child I connected very well with the image of God having an angelic army (and therefore God being powerful), and many other boys did as well.

MKJ said:

If Fantine is uncomfortable with the connotations of God having an army, the fact is that God does not have an army in the literal sense of the word. Descriptions of God and the eternal reality are always broader than the human words we use.

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What I mean is that you can't simply change it to mean a "host of ideas". We see imagery plenty of Him having a heavenly host. Hey, I don't even think He has wars with anybody, since angelic wars are a Christian thing, so don't think I'm jumping on some sort of military thing.

Sarcalogos Deus said:

No matter how you translate it the Sanctus is still going to contain a reference to an army. The only way that is avoidable is to remove the Sanctus altogether.

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Yeah, this was my point. I don't know what Fantine thought I said.

Struggling Sinner said:

It was the Pope who changed the words of the liturgy. Do you believe you have higher authority than the Vicar of Christ?

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No, I think that, without naming anyone in particular, some people are more tightly wound than others.

Fantine said:

No, I think that, without naming anyone in particular, some people are more tightly wound than others.

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All the Catholics that I've seen at Mass seem to have no problem with the new translation. The new translation of the Mass is the new normal.

Struggling Sinner said:

All the Catholics that I've seen at Mass seem to have no problem with the new translation. The new translation of the Mass is the new normal.

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For me it's like people whose native language is other than English. They may speak English, but they think in the other language.

I may recite the new words, but I am thinking the old words when the new words are at their most annoying.

I do like "and with your spirit" because to me the 'spirit' is where our most authentic selves reside.

Hate "through my fault times three." I immediately see three somber men with long grey beards and long black coats beating their breasts, looking like grim reapers.

I try to tell them, "Go away, old men...." but they keep appearing. Are we calling them? Are they ghosts in search of a depressing prayer service? I don't know.

I also don't understand why we are quoting a centurion offering hospitality to Jesus after the Agnus Dei--but maybe it's to keep up the militaristic theme.

So I say the words and I think the words that put me in a more prayerful state of mind.

Fantine said:

For me it's like people whose native language is other than English. They may speak English, but they think in the other language.

I may recite the new words, but I am thinking the old words when the new words are at their most annoying.

I do like "and with your spirit" because to me the 'spirit' is where our most authentic selves reside.

Hate "through my fault times three." I immediately see three somber men with long grey beards and long black coats beating their breasts, looking like grim reapers.

I try to tell them, "Go away, old men...." but they keep appearing. Are we calling them? Are they ghosts in search of a depressing prayer service? I don't know.

I also don't understand why we are quoting a centurion offering hospitality to Jesus after the Agnus Dei--but maybe it's to keep up the militaristic theme.

So I say the words and I think the words that put me in a more prayerful state of mind.

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You realize that every other liturgical language in the Roman rite had always translated the Mass the way we now do with the new English translation, right? Try going to a Spanish Mass to see what I mean. We were the only different ones until the change. Now everyone, no matter what their language, translates the Mass the same. So not only is the new translation more biblical, it better cultivates international unity in the Church. It's easy to see the Church from an American point of view instead of seeing the Church from a global perspective as Rome sees the Church.

As a church musician, I think there needs to be lyrical flexibility in sung versions of the Mass in order to enhance the musicality of the hymns.

The Gloria in particular is musically awkward, twisted and contorted to fit words that lack poetry, rhythm, and musicality.

Fantine said:

As a church musician, I think there needs to be lyrical flexibility in sung versions of the Mass in order to enhance the musicality of the hymns.

The Gloria in particular is musically awkward, twisted and contorted to fit words that lack poetry, rhythm, and musicality.

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It seems to work fine in my parish, in fact the Gloria sounds better now than before. Plus "lyrical flexibility" is all too often contorted to mean "terrible paraphrase".

Maybe y'all just need a better music director, choir, or musicians?

Sarcalogos Deus said:

It seems to work fine in my parish, in fact the Gloria sounds better now than before. Plus "lyrical flexibility" is all too often contorted to mean "terrible paraphrase".

Maybe y'all just need a better music director, choir, or musicians?

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Since more traditional Catholics tend to say Haugen, Haas, Foley, etc. have terrible lyrics (despite their often being taken word for word from the Bible....) while extolling those "Oh [superlative superlative superlative] God, Who [superlative adverb] [verb] from the skies..." mad-lib SATB hymns I usually don't accept their definitions of 'terrible paraphrase.'

Being a member of a relatively small parish I think our staff of volunteers do pretty well.

Fantine said:

For me it's like people whose native language is other than English. They may speak English, but they think in the other language.

I may recite the new words, but I am thinking the old words when the new words are at their most annoying.

I do like "and with your spirit" because to me the 'spirit' is where our most authentic selves reside.

Hate "through my fault times three." I immediately see three somber men with long grey beards and long black coats beating their breasts, looking like grim reapers.

I try to tell them, "Go away, old men...." but they keep appearing. Are we calling them? Are they ghosts in search of a depressing prayer service? I don't know.

I also don't understand why we are quoting a centurion offering hospitality to Jesus after the Agnus Dei--but maybe it's to keep up the militaristic theme.

So I say the words and I think the words that put me in a more prayerful state of mind.

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Not to be a jerk or contrarian, but what is your native language? I speak and have been to Mass in a number of languages and I find that the new translation is more in line with the rest of the world - including Indo-European and non-Indo-European tongues.

I would be very interested in knowing what language was more congruous with the previous English translation. The previous English translation was meant only to be a temporary and dynamic translation. I have translated the official Latin into a number of languages and compared it with various English translations. I can say without a doubt that the old translation did not put English speakers in sync with the rest of the Catholic world.

I will be the first to admit that the old Latin just doesn't work as a literal or near literal translation for English speakers. English is a really weird language.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

Not to be a jerk or contrarian, but what is your native language? I speak and have been to Mass in a number of languages and I find that the new translation is more in line with the rest of the world - including Indo-European and non-Indo-European tongues.

I would be very interested in knowing what language was more congruous with the previous English translation. The previous English translation was meant only to be a temporary and dynamic translation. I have translated the official Latin into a number of languages and compared it with various English translations. I can say without a doubt that the old translation did not put English speakers in sync with the rest of the Catholic world.

I will be the first to admit that the old Latin just doesn't work as a literal or near literal translation for English speakers. English is a really weird language.

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A few years ago a friend of mine got married, and since there were lots of English-only and French-only guests, they needed a translation for the mass. It was quite an undertaking, because they could not just use the official mass in the other language, it was too different.

Anyway, I am not sure why people think it is impossible to have a beautiful translation in English, or one that is also good for setting to music. It is not like it has never been done:

Darke "Agnus Dei" (Collegium Regale) - YouTube

My comment was that even if I recite the "new" translation, I am "thinking" the old translation in those sections where I think the "new" translation is just ridiculous.

I once went to a Mass in a convent where the sisters would take the Mass parts and use "God" instead of "He" at times (right before the preface, for example...) No harm done. They didn't say "She" (although I have sometimes heard nuns use he and she interchangeably for God, just not at Mass). I thought it was kind of nice (this was before the new translation).

Does that mean they think God is a woman? No. It just means they think of God as a genderless spirit with both maternal and paternal characteristics.

And so whenever they recite "He" they are thinking "genderless spirit." Seems logical to me.

Attention perception police: you can't control people's perceptions. I hear "through my most grievous fault" and see apparitions of bearded men in long black coats. That's the image those words conjure up for me, because I believe that both guilt and worry are counterproductive--that only the present moment is ours to act in. Self-flagellatory language isn't going to make us better people--concentrating on our present actions will.