Do Roman Catholics Reject Salvation By Christ Alone?

When our separated brethren (Non-Catholic christians) ask us to show them where is this or that in Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) ... it is like looking at a tree and then saying to the Tree ... "show me where this branch or this leaf or that fruit is in the actual tiny seed of what was the Tree."

I don't use fancy words like the previous posters,but my take is that yes, they do reject salvation in Christ alone.

Lazydaisy67 said:

I don't use fancy words like the previous posters,but my take is that yes, they do reject salvation in Christ alone.

Click to expand...

Do you preach a Christ without an instituted Church, a Head without a Body?

We do not.

The Church has distinguishable marks, (namely four, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic).

Lazydaisy67 said:

I don't use fancy words like the previous posters,but my take is that yes, they do reject salvation in Christ alone.

Click to expand...

May I ask what do you base your statement upon?

AHJE said:

Do you preach a Christ without an instituted Church, a Head without a Body?

We do not.

The Church has distinguishable marks, (namely four, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic).

Click to expand...

AHJE,

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord said, "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20). It is my belief that it doesn't matter if someone attends a particular church or not, if they are nothing more than a "white-washed tomb" inside (Matthew 23:27-28). If someone professes Christ with their lips yet denys Him by their words and actions (Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:8), then they have may found religion, but they have not found a new life in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). If they profess Christ with their lips yet deny Him by their words and actions, they have not "crucified their flesh," with its passions and desires (Romans 13:14; Galatians 5:24). If someone who professes Christ does not repent of their sins, then they will have a false conversion (Mark 4:16-17), because they did not "depart from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19). I fear that they will be among those who say to the Lord on the Day of Judgment, "‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'" And He will say to them, "‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

I would also like to take a few more minutes to further open the Word of God and discuss the Scriptures which I believe fully validate that the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ is not the Roman Catholic Church (or any other church that professes the same claim), but rather the Universal Church is every single genuine believer in the Lord Jesus Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts Chapter 2) until His return (1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). Our Lord Himself said, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8). Furthermore, it is written in Revelation 7:9-10 that there will be a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. And so, after reading the very words of Jesus and other passages pertaining to the Body of Christ written in the Scriptures, I can say, with complete confidence, that the Universal Church of our Lord Jesus Christ is not nor has it ever been confined within the walls of a particular Church affiliation or confined within any particular church doctrine(s) or religious belief(s). It is my belief, and I can also say this with complete confidence, because of what has been written in the Scriptures, that every single person who has ever placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation (John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 17:1-5; Romans 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:7-8; 13-14; 2:4-10; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Titus 1:2; 3:4-7; 1 John 5:9-13; 5:20) is a part of the Universal Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (scriptural references also include: Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:12-17; 12::27; Ephesians 4:12; 6:23; Colossians 1:24; Hebrews 13:3; Revelation 7:9-10).

Genuine believers in Jesus Christ are one in Him as His body (Galatians 3:26-29; Ephesians 4:1-6) and are not divided by church affiliations, doctrines, rituals or traditions (1 Corinthians 1:12-17; Galatians 5:1-6; Colossians 2:20-23). Our Lord said, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed" (John 8:36). Furthermore, it is affirmed in Scripture that all genuine believers in Jesus Christ are born again (John 3:3-7), redeemed (Colossians 1:13-14), justified by faith (Romans 3:21-26), forgiven of their sins (Ephesians 1:7-10), and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14). This is all because of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) demonstrated to us, while we were still sinners (Romans 5:8), through the cross of His Son Jesus Christ (Isaiah 53:4-6; John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 14:6; 17:1-5; Acts 4:12; Romans 1:16-17; 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 11:6; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; 5:21; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Ephesians 1:7-14; 2:4-13; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10-15; 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10; Titus 1:2; 3:4-7; Hebrews 7:27; 9:26; 10:1-22; 1 Peter 1:18-21; 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 1:5-10; 2:1-25; 5: 9-13; 5:20).

All genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), free of sin (Romans 6:18) and condemnation (Romans 8:1) and they have been given eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior (1 John 5:9-13). Every genuine believer, "having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever," (1 Peter 1:23) trusts in Jesus Christ alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), the only One who paid the penalty of our sins when He suffered and died on the cross, but rose rose again from the grave, victorious over both death and hell (1 Corinthians 15:12-28). And finally, the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:2-4) is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (Romans 1:16-17), and whoever believes and receives Jesus Christ will be justified before God by their faith in Him (John 1:12-13; Romans 3:21-28; 4:4-5; 5:1-11; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). They will no longer be under God's wrath (John 3:18; John 3:36; Romans 1:18-32; Ephesians 2:3) and no longer condemned, because they are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). God no longer appoints those who are in Christ to wrath, but to obtain salvation through His Son (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10) and give them eternal life (1 John 5:9-13), because salvation belongs to Him alone (Psalms 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Revelation 7:10) and not to a particular Church.

Scripture is very clear that there is nothing we can do ourselves to be saved or to merit our own salvation.

Proverbs 15:8: "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, But the prayer of the upright is His delight."

Proverbs 21:27: "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination; How much more when he brings it with wicked intent!"

Isaiah 64:6: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Matthew 26:28: "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

John 1:12-13: "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]John 5:24: “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

John 11:25-26: "25 Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?'”

John 20:30-31: "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Romans 1:16-17: "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'”

Romans 3:21-26: "21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of His blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 He did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Romans 5:1-2: "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."

Romans 5:8-11: "8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Romans 10:9-10: "9 If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

1 Corinthians 1:30: "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

2 Corinthians 5:21: "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."

Galatians 3:21-25: "21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Galatians 3:1-6: "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'”

Galatians 5:1-6: "1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Ephesians 1:7-10: "7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that He lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ." [FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Colossians 2:11-15: "11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

Titus 3:4-7: "4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Hebrews 9:11-15: "11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

1 Peter 1:18-21: "18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."

1 John 5:9-13: "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Tzaousios said:

I don't understand what the gripe in this one is except that you wanted something else other than fishsticks on Friday and that meany pope said you could not.

For someone who uses such expensive words, I find it nearly unbelievable that you didn't understand my point. I'm sorry, but I tried to explain it in the simplest terms that I could. I really don't know how I could make it more apparent.

Again, I do not see much of substance here other than what appears to be ex-Catholic sour grapes. Do you want non-Christians to be forced to convert as in the days of the Crusades or do you not want it?

Wow, you didn't understand any of that?

No it does not. Now, it might appear to be this way to someone who has a certain presupposition about what clergy and theologians should look and sound like.

I really have serious doubts regarding your reading comprehension and understanding skills.

In your case, this presupposition sounds very much like the false dichotomy that is put forward quite commonly by ex-Catholics and anti-Catholic Protestants. This false dichotomy sets two artificial sides against each other: on the one hand there is the pietistic, ultra-spiritualized, bluecollar layman who "merely repeats what the Bible plainly says" vs. on the other hand the supposedly carnal, eggheaded, pharisaical "theologians" who try to interpret the Bible.

Click to expand...

Ok, if you say so.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

AHJE said:

When our separated brethren (Non-Catholic christians) ask us to show them where is this or that in Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) ... it is like looking at a tree and then saying to the Tree ... "show me where this branch or this leaf or that fruit is in the actual tiny seed of what was the Tree."

Click to expand...

Not exactly. What you're saying is when someone asks about this or that Tradition, it is like looking at a tree and wondering where the seed is. Believe it's called developed doctrine (aka Tradition).

Scripture, OTOH, is what it is.

Tzaousios said:

One only has to read some of the countless Neocalvinist blogs or apologetics sites out there to see what I am talking about. This is not a hasty generalization, either. There are also plenty of books that do the same thing. If you require bibliographic references, I can provide those.

Click to expand...

Well, again, I think you aren't very wise in your discernment of the things that you read. While I fully agree that maybe many calvinists do stand against the teachings of the RCC and its practices and rituals, I don't think you can support your claim that it is largely this class that does. You seem to have missed my point in that also. I was just asking on what you were basing the claim that it is largely 'calvinistic monergists' that you feel support this anti-catholicism. My findings have been that there is a wide range of christians, outside of the catholic organization, that are against much of the teachings, practices and rituals of the RCC. So, I'm just saying that I don't think one can truly support some claim that it is 'largely calvinistic monergists' that are against this issue.

It certainly isn't true of me, because I am not a calvinist. As far as being monergistic, well I've looked at the definition of that word and quite frankly I'm not sure exactly what is meant by the 'Holy Spirit working independently of the human will in the act of regeneration'. I don't believe the Holy Spirit works in the regeneration of anyone unless that person desires his power and the work that he does.

But, each one will believe whatever it is that they have decided is the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited said:

Ok, if you say so.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

Click to expand...

I received word from other people that they did not understand what you were getting at, either.

hello Diligently Seeking God

the first video is a kind of sloppy explanation of the idea that people will be judged by what they know, not what they do not know
St.Paul says that the gentiles had the law written in their hearts
and even as He carried His own cross, Jesus prayed "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"
Now I do think the priest in the first video goes a bit over board
first he talks about people who never heard of Christ
and if you never heard the Gospel, will Jesus punish them for not accepting something they never heard?
but then he goes on to talk about Rabbis who really believe in Judaism and try to do their best to follow God
this I am not so sure about
the priest had like 1 minuet to talk, it is hard to go into such a deep topic like this in 1 min
also, he seemed to be a little more liberal then I am
the Catholic Church has over 1 billion members,
there are things we all agree on, (or atleast are suposed to agree on)
and things that are debatable

Oh, and I was not even able to listen to all of the second video
the guy should read a book about the Catholic Church

the Catechism was made to help priests explain the doctrines of the Catholic Church to people, it is a tool for teachers

since it was made for teachers and priests, it assumes that the people reading it are already educated, and that they have an understanding of the Bible, and they have an understanding of the Catholic Church

the guy in the video might be educated
and he seems to know the Bible pretty well
but he does not understand Catholic doctrine
seriously, it was painful to listen to

subscribing

Hi sunlover, long time no see
I do not post on GT as much as I used to

Tzaousios said:

I received word from other people that they did not understand what you were getting at, either.

Click to expand...

Hi,

Sorry man, let me see then if I can make it clearer.

A decree is issued at the top of the chain that something is not allowed. A few years later that decree is reversed that it really isn't an issue. How does one understand that the decree issuer was right the first time or right the second time. If God is really behind the decree, then it's always right.

A decree is issued that salvation can only be found through the catholic organization. Now the decree says, "Well, no we believe that people can find salvation outside of the catholic organization and even outside of the gospel of truth delivered as the testimony of Jesus." Which one is correct? Is salvation only found within the confines of the catholic organization or is salvation really available to even those of other faiths who 'live a good life'?

Hopefully, you and the others who were confused will be able to understand it better in shorter, more concise statements.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited said:

Hi,

Sorry man, let me see then if I can make it clearer.

A decree is issued at the top of the chain that something is not allowed. A few years later that decree is reversed that it really isn't an issue. How does one understand that the decree issuer was right the first time or right the second time. If God is really behind the decree, then it's always right.

A decree is issued that salvation can only be found through the catholic organization. Now the decree says, "Well, no we believe that people can find salvation outside of the catholic organization and even outside of the gospel of truth delivered as the testimony of Jesus." Which one is correct? Is salvation only found within the confines of the catholic organization or is salvation really available to even those of other faiths who 'live a good life'?

Hopefully, you and the others who were confused will be able to understand it better in shorter, more concise statements.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Click to expand...

first off, we never said "salvation is only found within the confines of the Catholic organization"

because we are not an "organization"
we are a Church
if you look at it as just a man made organization, then we will seem silly and even horrible

The good thief who hung on a cross next to our Lord was never part of any organization
but through his faith in the Lord, he was part of the Body of Christ

The Church is the Body of Christ
in a spiritual way of course.

all those who are saved are part of the Body of Christ, all those who are saved are part of the Church
now they might not be part of the formal organization of the Church
that is what the priest in the first video was getting at
but I think he was a bit too liberal on the idea

there is a term
"invincible ignorance"
that is when through no fault of your own, you have never heard the Gospel, but you know you are a sinner and you need a God who can save you.
people are not dumb, they know that they have sinned, every man fails at living up to even his own morality, and if you believe that the Holy Spirit can move mens hearts, then you believe that the Holy Spirit can do this without the aid of people hearing the Gospel or the Scriptures
I do not know how common this is, it is not the idea that EVERYONE who is ignorant of the Gospel will be saved, not even most
men are sinners and we go away from the things of God
but the Holy Spirit is greater then our sin

so everyone who is saved is part of the Body of Christ

Standing Up said:

Not exactly. What you're saying is when someone asks about this or that Tradition, it is like looking at a tree and wondering where the seed is. Believe it's called developed doctrine (aka Tradition).

Scripture, OTOH, is what it is.

Click to expand...

Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) ... is that part of Divine Tradition that is committed to Writing by the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The New Testament comes from the Divine Tradition of the Church and is not separate from it, although it is distinct from it.

God bless you.

Rhamiel said:

first off, we never said "salvation is only found within the confines of the Catholic organization"

Hi Rhamiel,

If I could ask, who is the subject of your pronoun 'we'? If you are speaking of the catholic organization itself, yes, there have been, and it hasn't been too very long ago, that the organization itself clearly and emphatically declared and proclaimed that there was no salvation available unto man unless it was obtained through participation with said organization. Here is what pope Boniface VIII wrote on this very subject: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV wrote in a papal bull: "It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

And there are others. Now, you may proclaim or protest as you see fit, but these are written words recorded in readily available historical documents of the days when it was fully believed and proclaimed that no man may be saved outside of the blessing and incorporation of the catholic organization.

Now, is that what the catholic organization believes today? Well, apparently not. That organization is now bending over backwards to become inclusive to almost all faiths, beliefs and ways of salvation so long as one 'lives a good life'.

because we are not an "organization"
we are a Church
if you look at it as just a man made organization, then we will seem silly and even horrible

Well, whether you call the catholic practices and participation a 'church' or an 'organization' is purely semantics. Even if it is a 'church' it is an organized religious entity and qualifies as an organization. Yes, I absolutely agree that it would seem silly and even horrible to me.

The good thief who hung on a cross next to our Lord was never part of any organization
but through his faith in the Lord, he was part of the Body of Christ

The Church is the Body of Christ
in a spiritual way of course.

Yes, yes, I understand it's all some mystical spiritual thing.

all those who are saved are part of the Body of Christ, all those who are saved are part of the Church
now they might not be part of the formal organization of the Church
that is what the priest in the first video was getting at
but I think he was a bit too liberal on the idea

I fully and absolutely agree with that statement, but somehow I think your understanding and mine of that word 'church' may have some differences.

there is a term
"invincible ignorance"
that is when through no fault of your own, you have never heard the Gospel, but you know you are a sinner and you need a God who can save you.
people are not dumb, they know that they have sinned, every man fails at living up to even his own morality, and if you believe that the Holy Spirit can move mens hearts, then you believe that the Holy Spirit can do this without the aid of people hearing the Gospel or the Scriptures
I do not know how common this is, it is not the idea that EVERYONE who is ignorant of the Gospel will be saved, not even most
men are sinners and we go away from the things of God
but the Holy Spirit is greater then our sin

Friend, none of that is found in the Scriptures. Your term 'invincible ignorance' is a man-made term, based on man-made understanding, to teach a man-made way of salvation.

so everyone who is saved is part of the Body of Christ

Click to expand...

Well, my understanding is that none of us are saved... yet. What happens to a man in this lifetime is that he may be born again. He is born with the Spirit of God and as Paul writes, that Spirit is the gaurantee of our coming salvation. When we are born again our Lord writes our name in his Book of Life and, on the day of God's judgment, those whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are saved from the destiny of eternal torment. Then we are saved. Now we may only be destined for salvation. However, on the basic premise that I believe you are teaching here I agree. All those who are born again are the body of Christ.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

yes, the Popes have talked alot about the need to be united to the Church
it is an important thing
and heresy and schism are horrible sins

but there has also been a lot written about "baptism by desire"
these two concepts are not contradictory, they have to be understood in balance

yes, "invincible ignorance" is a man made term
that is what we do, we make up words and terms to describe what we are thinking
some guy made up the word Trinity as well

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

Perhaps the priest in video 1 does not speak for all Catholics. However, he is a Catholic priest and if I'm not mistaken, he would strictly teach from the Catholic Catechism, would he not?

Click to expand...

Says who?

The question I have is why would he say something contrary to the Catholic Catechism, which, I assume are his own personal beliefs.

Click to expand...

Why not?

But furthermore, who says the CCC is wrong based on some Evangelical Protestant's non-Catholic interpretation of it? Logically, to base its value on what a Protestant thinks it says is meaningless, null, and void because it isn't how the Vatican interprets it. It is their interpretation, not a Protestant's, is what the argument should be based on.

Otherwise, all there is, is smoke and mirrors....not to mention false witness, which is a pretty nasty sin.

And now to video 2. I know I have to tread very lightly on this issue. To be completely honest, and without stepping beyond the site rule of "Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian," I cannot help but wonder if a Roman Catholic truly believes in what is actually taught by the Roman Catholic Church through its own Catechism (the papacy, worship or adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture), is it possible for their salvation to not be based on 'works righteousness'? I would like to know what you think, sister brinny.

Click to expand...

1. Perpetual Virginity is ancient and has always been believed, including by the likes of Martin Luther (*gasp*), John Calvin (*gasp*), Ulrich Zwingli (*gasp*), John Hus (*gasp*), and John Wesley (*gasp*), the latter of whom wasn't even a Protestant though he is considered to be the spiritual father of the Methodist/Wesleyan tradition.
2. Define Immaculate Conceptio of Mary, Assumption of Mary, and also Co-Redemptix and Mediatrix...if your definitions don't match those of the Vatican Catholic Church, all you are doing is arguing a Straw Man and again, bearing false witness.
3. Petitioning Saints =/= worship. Latria vrs. Dulia; those very words are even found in the Blessed Revelation if you got the Greek.
4. Apostolic Succession is a Christian belief which is proven to be ridiculously early in the historic written evidence.
5. Sacramental theology is the same as point 3.
6. Paedobaptism is yet again the same...and implicitly found in Holy Scripture where it says whole households were baptized; all one needs is the schema of what a "household" was back in those days to see that paedobaptism was practiced. Not to mention, once again, all the individuals above ALL BELIEVED AND PRACTICED IT.
7. Confession to a priest is also ancient.
8. Purgatory? Define it. Also, note that current Vatican Catholic teaching has radically changed on it since especially the 1960's, so be sure that you define it RIGHT.
9. Indulgences are gone, so that's immaterial to bring up.
10. Holy Tradition always was authoritative. Again, the historic evidence is clear.

Those who think Vatican Catholics aren't Christians sin against Christ and persecute His Church, for they are certainly members of it. What you did to the least of them, you do to Him.

My suggestion is to pick up some good books of ecclesiastical history, talk to a Vatican Catholic priest, and begin to learn.