Idioms...

visionary · Dec 21, 2012

I know there are a lot of them, and if you can think of one, let this thread be one in which you share it with us.

"Under the fig tree"

I learned something interesting ... "under the fig tree" may not been so literal when Yeshua said that Nathaniel was "under the fig tree". From the days of Solomon, it was said that peace reigned and everyone was "under the fig tree" meaning that they were as we say today "in the zone", or as scripture says experiencing the "peace that passes all understanding".

1 Kings 4:25
During Solomons lifetime Judah and Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, lived in safety, everyone under their own vine and under their own fig tree.

So later when the Jews said "under the fig tree" they were talking about having that peace, that contented stated with God. It was something that even the prophets used as a way to describing "hitting the mark" with God.

Zechariah 3:10
In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree, declares the LORD Almighty.

In fact that was how Yeshua described Nathaniel.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.

48 How do you know me? Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.

49 Then Nathanael declared, Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.

50 Jesus said, You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that. 51 He then added, Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.

SO while Nathaniel could have easily truly and literally been under the fig tree, I believe that by Yeshua telling Nathaniel "I saw you under the fig tree"... It was like Yeshua saying in today's lingo, "I know you were in the zone with God" It hit home to Nathaniel, that was indeed the Son of God, for who else could "see" and know what Nathaniel was going through in his spiritual journey with God to be declared by Yeshua not only to be without guile, but also in the "peace that passes all understanding" with God.

Shabbat shalom

daq · Dec 21, 2012

Every man has a fig(tree) and a vine. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit, (lukewarm is spewed out). The only way to make sure that your fig and vine is not of the spirit of "the Assyrian genos-kind" is to stay in the Word; Yeshua is the Vine, we are the branches, and the Father is the Great Husbandman who prunes the branches that bear fruit so that they may bear fruit more abundantly.

Shabbat Shalom

daq · Dec 22, 2012

As in most things it ultimately boils down to two choices. I see that you already posted some of these passages and I simply post them together once more with the others below because it becomes fairly clear that they are all of the same context and speak of the same supernal things. The "Assyrian" entices with what, (on the surface) appears to be the same blessings as that of the true heavenly Father but obviously the lesson, as in the Garden, is that they are not the same in the end:

1 Kings 4:25
25. And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

2 Kings 18:31-32 (Isaiah 36:16-18a)
31. Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me, and then eat ye every man of his own vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his cistern:
32. Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The Lord will deliver us.

Man is also likened to a "cistern" whether above ground, (stone water jars at Cana) or below:

Jeremiah 2:12-13
12. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
13. For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Micah 4:4-5
4. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Zechariah 3:9-10
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

visionary · Dec 22, 2012

Just for a trip down memory lane... this could be added to this story of why fig..

Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

It is what Adam and Eve used, when the real wasn't available for covering.

It was one of the fruits brought back from the promised land..

Numbers 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.

So there is a lot of connections people could be bringing to mind when they mention figs.

Deuteronomy 8:8 A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey;

It is part of the picture of the promised land that comes to mind, that peaceful prosperous time of rest in His Kingdom. Even in their stories they tell, it is about not ruling and reigning but of dwelling in their own land doing as God requires of them that the fig relates.

Judges 9:10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?

It was one of the gifts that Abigail brought David as a peace offering.

1 Samuel 25:18
Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses.

Even the prophet used it for healing.

2 Kings 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

It was part of the love song..

Song of Solomon 2:13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

It is also mentioned when the time comes for everything including peace is to be taken away..

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Jeremiah 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

Why figs were chosen over and over again to represent not only peace in and of itself but the nation of Israel at peace, being taken, or void of faith is revealed.

Jeremiah 24:1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon. 2
One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. 3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. ..5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good... 8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: Jeremiah 29:17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

As revealed in Jeremiah 29:17 it is the spirit or the heart of the matter that makes a good or vile fig. But mostly it is about the relationship with Him... that the fig seems to represent.

Hosea 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

A relationship that is mentioned over and over again for good and bad through the idiom of the fig.

Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Nahum 3:12 All thy strong holds shall be like fig trees with the firstripe figs: if they be shaken, they shall even fall into the mouth of the eater.

Joel 1:7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white....12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

It ties into the ideology of bearing fruit..

Joel 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

Amos 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Habakkuk 3:16 When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops. 17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: 18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

And the most famous of them all, when Yeshua used it..

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away...20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! 21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. ....32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

Of course you know the rest of this parable and how it went.

JRSut1000 · Dec 23, 2012

This is a neat discussion! We just named our son Nethanyiel, so any further meaning in relation to his name is intriguing! I do know one thing, I had a dream when I was pregnant about our little man (we have a lot of meaningful dreams!) and I saw him when he was a toddler and then a teenager and in both scenes he was very calm/contented and peaceful. (he's only 5.5 wks old right now)

visionary · Dec 23, 2012

"The last day"

Is also an idiom... let's face it we know it is not the last day because eternity starts. We know that the eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles is the last day and yet the beginning of another. It is what is called the sacred closing assembly.

Hosea 3:5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

It is also an idiom for the last days of the six thousand reign of sin and we will enter into His Sabbath rest He promised us. So it includes the 1000 year rest in the last days.

Micah 4:1 [ The Mountain of the LORD ] In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

It is also the day of the resurrection..

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day....44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day... 54 whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

talk about eating and drinking and it coincidently ties into this verse..

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

Believers even back then before Yeshua proved He was the one with the power to bring people back to life spoke up of their faith of what was to come in the last day..

John 11:24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Judgement comes in the last days... which to me indicates that when the fall feasts start so does the events of the lat days.

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

It will also include the time of trouble..

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

In fact when you look at it more carefully, we have been the last days since Yeshua walked the earth.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

One of the most amazing aspects of the last days, is that inspite of overwhelming data coming in, of changes that I wouldn't have believe would happen twenty years ago are happening, and yet people don't see the change.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

visionary · Dec 23, 2012

How many idioms is the Sabbath known by

The Lord's Day
The Queen
A semblance of the World-to-Come
Shabbat Rest
The Wife of God

Laureate · Dec 24, 2012

The widow, fatherless, and the stranger within your gates...

The widow is the wife of our youth, Ruach HaKodesh (the Spirit of our Father), who appears masculine simply because she (does not represent her self, but) represents the Father, notwithstanding she is the true life giver whom Eve/KhWH was named after.

Malachi 2:14 YHWH has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously: yet is she your companion, and the wife of your covenant. 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a divine seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 2:16 For YHWH, the Elohym of Israel, says that he hates putting away/divorce: for one covers violence with his garment, says the Host of YHWH: therefore take heed to your spirit, that you deal not treacherously.

In this context, divorce = death

The fatherless is the Word/Son of Elohym which is sown in our fleshly heart, for We are Elohym his Father yet our disbelief hands us over to a delusion, and consequently death; primarily he is the fatherless because we are dead when it comes to acknowledging who we really are, and who he really is, for he claims to be the son of Adam & the Son of Elohym, yet in the same breath he acknowledged that he is the Son of Elohym he also called us Elohym.

John 10:34 Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are Elohym? 10:35 If he called them Elohym, unto whom the word of Elohym came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 10:36 Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, you blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of Elohym?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty Deity, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The stranger within our gates are the anointed ones such as Elijah the Tishby (lit. foreigner), and the angels/messengers, whose sound and appearance is both strange and foreign to us who believe our lips are our own, consequently true Messianic/Christian believers are now among the modern strangers within our gates.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Mind you these are called quotations, not interpretations, we either receive and believe his Word our we do not; I know these things are difficult to believe, yet who ever said Faith was supposed to be easy, the scriptures say "precept upon precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little, do not add or diminish anything, establish everything upon the testimony of two or three, yet someone will reply to my post with words of their own to discredit the words of Elohym which I quoted, why? because they can not receive or believe his word, yet dare count themselves with the believers of Elohym, they have no shame, yet run around naked exposing themselves, for how long YHWH? sigh...

Ebed · Dec 24, 2012

I have said, You are gods/authorities; and all of you are children of the ELYOWN.

But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Arise, O ELOHIYM, judge the earth: for thou shall inherit all nations. Ps 82

To whom did Yeshuah quote this verse ? was it not about those who sat in Moses seat ? the religious rulers? - The Jews who wanted to stone him, not to Believers

But YHWH is the true ELOHIYM, He is the living ELOHIYM, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation

Thus shall you say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

He has made the earth by His power, He hath established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens by His discretion. YermeYahu 10:10-12

daq · Dec 24, 2012

Ebed said:
I have said, You are gods/authorities; and all of you are children of the ELYOWN.

But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Arise, O ELOHIYM, judge the earth: for thou shall inherit all nations. Ps 82

To whom did Yeshuah quote this verse ? was it not to those who sat in Moses seat ? the religious rulers?

But YHWH is the true ELOHIYM, He is the living ELOHIYM, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation

Thus shall you say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

He has made the earth by His power, He hath established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens by His discretion. YermeYahu 10:10-12

There was recently a discussion on this topic at the following:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7706929/

Laureate said:
The widow, fatherless, and the stranger within your gates...

The widow is the wife of our youth, Ruach HaKodesh (the Spirit of our Father), who appears masculine simply because she (does not represent her self, but) represents the Father, notwithstanding she is the true life giver whom Eve/KhWH was named after.

Malachi 2:14 YHWH has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously: yet is she your companion, and the wife of your covenant. 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a divine seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 2:16 For YHWH, the Elohym of Israel, says that he hates putting away/divorce: for one covers violence with his garment, says the Host of YHWH: therefore take heed to your spirit, that you deal not treacherously.

In this context, divorce = death

The fatherless is the Word/Son of Elohym which is sown in our fleshly heart, for We are Elohym his Father yet our disbelief hands us over to a delusion, and consequently death; primarily he is the fatherless because we are dead when it comes to acknowledging who we really are, and who he really is, for he claims to be the son of Adam & the Son of Elohym, yet in the same breath he acknowledged that he is the Son of Elohym he also called us Elohym.

John 10:34 Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are Elohym? 10:35 If he called them Elohym, unto whom the word of Elohym came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 10:36 Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, you blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of Elohym?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty Deity, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The stranger within our gates are the anointed ones such as Elijah the Tishby (lit. foreigner), and the angels/messengers, whose sound and appearance is both strange and foreign to us who believe our lips are our own, consequently true Messianic/Christian believers are now among the modern strangers within our gates.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Mind you these are called quotations, not interpretations, we either receive and believe his Word our we do not; I know these things are difficult to believe, yet who ever said Faith was supposed to be easy, the scriptures say "precept upon precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little, do not add or diminish anything, establish everything upon the testimony of two or three, yet someone will reply to my post with words of their own to discredit the words of Elohym which I quoted, why? because they can not receive or believe his word, yet dare count themselves with the believers of Elohym, they have no shame, yet run around naked exposing themselves, for how long YHWH? sigh...

Do you also speak in idiom when you suggest that those disagreeing with you are "discrediting" the words of Elohim? Behold, a nqebah shall encompass a geber-warrior-man; for the wife of my youth is of the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem. I do remember the days wherein the Assyrian passed through my land; inundating like a flood that reached unto the neck. And yet the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem do laugh him to scorn every time. Unto what is she likened and to whom can she be compared? She is adorned from above; in blues, and purples, and scarlets, and fine linens, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins. The pillars and boards of her bulwarks are made of acacia; the stakes of her tents are as horns of iron that cannot be moved; the fine white linen curtains of her habitations enlarge spreading forth like the heavens rolling out as a scroll. There is none comparable to the wife of my youth; full of faithfulness, and righteousness, and truth, and given unto me from the Father above: by Covenant.

Laureate · Dec 24, 2012

Ebed said:
I have said, You are gods/authorities; and all of you are children of the ELYOWN.

But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Arise, O ELOHIYM, judge the earth: for thou shall inherit all nations. Ps 82

To whom did Yeshuah quote this verse ? was it not about those who sat in Moses seat ? the religious rulers? - The Jews who wanted to stone him, not to Believers

But YHWH is the true ELOHIYM, He is the living ELOHIYM, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation

Thus shall you say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

He has made the earth by His power, He hath established the world by His wisdom, and has stretched out the heavens by His discretion. YermeYahu 10:10-12

Give praise, my heart rejoices because of your response.

Laureate · Dec 24, 2012

daq said:
There was recently a discussion on this topic at the following:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7706929/

Do you also speak in idiom when you suggest that those disagreeing with you are "discrediting" the words of Elohim? Behold, a nqebah shall encompass a geber-warrior-man; for the wife of my youth is of the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem. I do remember the days wherein the Assyrian passed through my land; inundating like a flood that reached unto the neck. And yet the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem do laugh him to scorn every time. Unto what is she likened and to whom can she be compared? She is adorned from above; in blues, and purples, and scarlets, and fine linens, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins. The pillars and boards of her bulwarks are made of acacia; the stakes of her tents are as horns of iron that cannot be moved; the fine white linen curtains of her habitations enlarge spreading forth like the heavens rolling out as a scroll. There is none comparable to the wife of my youth; full of faithfulness, and righteousness, and truth, and given unto me from the Father above: by Covenant.

My sentiment is my own nakedness, yet it is not a disagreeing with me, that troubles me, not at all, but when He says "I kill and I make alive", many are unable to except His word, and when they debate (that which is Sacred), they reason with one another using their sentiment instead of scripture, and I know I am not better than anyone, but to see someone rely on their sentiment, and not scripture, I am troubled by it, just like anyone else who is able to accept the face value of His word.

I will meditate on your response, to glean what I can, & if I have any questions concerning what appears to beautiful I will ask you for clarification via P.M.
(so as not to derail our beloved sister's thread). pardon my sentiment, and thank you for the fresh perspective you presented, it appears worthy to further explore (your take concerning) the daughter of Zion.

daq · Dec 27, 2012

Bold red emphasis mine:

Laureate said:
My sentiment is my own nakedness, yet it is not a disagreeing with me, that troubles me, not at all, but when He says "I kill and I make alive", many are unable to except His word, and when they debate (that which is Sacred), they reason with one another using their sentiment instead of scripture, and I know I am not better than anyone, but to see someone rely on their sentiment, and not scripture, I am troubled by it, just like anyone else who is able to accept the face value of His word.

I will meditate on your response, to glean what I can, & if I have any questions concerning what appears to beautiful I will ask you for clarification via P.M.
(so as not to derail our beloved sister's thread). pardon my sentiment, and thank you for the fresh perspective you presented, it appears worthy to further explore (your take concerning) the daughter of Zion.

It is not very clear where these sentiments came from, or how this became part of the conversation in this thread; but are you really so sure that we should be taking Scripture at "face value" when it comes to what most English translations describe as "killing"? The word in your quote "I kill and I make alive" is "muwth" yet the very first example is in Adam who is recorded to have lived a total of 930 years even though he disobeyed the commandment and ate from the forbidden tree. Perhaps then to pronounce one as "muwth-dead" or "mowt-tamuwt" ("dying thou shalt die") is not the same as to "ratsach-kill outright" (there is also "harag-slay").

Genesis 2:15-17
15. And took YHWH 'Elohiym the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to till it and to guard-hedge-keep it.
16. And commanded YHWH 'Elohiym the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof; mowt tamuwt!

Genesis 5:3-5
3. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
4. And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he muwt.

Original Strong's Ref. #4191
Romanized muwth
Pronounced mooth
a primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:
KJV--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro[-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Exodus 20:13
13. Thou shalt not ratsach-kill.

Original Strong's Ref. #7523
Romanized ratsach
Pronounced raw-tsakh'
a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:
KJV--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

yonah_mishael · Dec 28, 2012

The Hebrew word for “kill” is not “muwth” (by which, you surely mean מוּת [mûṯ] or simply [mut]). The qal root means simply “to die,” not “to kill.” The word you’re looking for is from this root, but it is ממית mēmîṯ or simply memit. There’s a huge difference between הוּא מֵת “he died” and הוּא הֵמִית “he put to death.”

In the central prayer of Judaism (the Amidah) we say that God is מֶ֫לֶךְ מֵמִית וּמְחַיֶּה וּמַצְמִיחַ יְשׁוּעָה méleḵ mēmîṯ ûməḥayyê(h) ûmaṣmî(a)ḥ yəšûʿâ – “the King who puts to death and brings to life and causes deliverance to sprout.”

I have a real issue with people attempting to teach others what the Hebrew “really means” when they don’t know Hebrew. This is an endemic problem that should be addressed within the Messianic movement. How can someone teach who has never learned??

daq · Dec 28, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
The Hebrew word for kill is not muwth (by which, you surely mean מוּת [mûṯ] or simply [mut]). The qal root means simply to die, not to kill. The word youre looking for is from this root, but it is ממית mēmîṯ or simply memit. Theres a huge difference between הוּא מֵת he died and הוּא הֵמִית he put to death.

In the central prayer of Judaism (the Amidah) we say that God is מֶ֫לֶךְ מֵמִית וּמְחַיֶּה וּמַצְמִיחַ יְשׁוּעָה méleḵ mēmîṯ ûməḥayyê(h) ûmaṣmî(a)ḥ yəûʿâ the King who puts to death and brings to live and causes deliverance to sprout.

I have a real issue with people attempting to teach others what the Hebrew really means when they dont know Hebrew. This is an endemic problem that should be addressed within the Messianic movement. How can someone teach who has never learned??

If you are responding to me then we are in agreement. Man typically thinks "put to death physically" (as in execute) when he hears the word "kill". If this had been done in the Garden then the human race would not be here to discuss it, (mercy). Likewise the "putting to death" (supernal in meaning) is followed with bringing to life, (grace).

yonah_mishael · Dec 28, 2012

daq said:
If you are responding to me then we are in agreement. Man typically thinks "put to death physically" (as in execute) when he hears the word "kill". If this had been done in the Garden then the human race would not be here to discuss it, (mercy). Likewise the "putting to death" (supernal in meaning) is followed with bringing to life, (grace).

I was opposing your use of mut (מוּ&#1514

to mean “kill” or “put to death.” It doesn’t mean that. It means “die,” and it means only “die.” The word “kill” or “put to death” is a different word based in the same root. It is the word hemit (הֵמִי&#1514

. The distinction is like that between nichnas (נִכְנַ&#1505

“entered” and hichnis (הִכְנִי&#1505

“inserted” or “caused to enter.” It’s the difference between ba (בָּ&#1488

“came” and hevi (הֵבִי&#1488

“brought.” It’s the difference between yatsa (יָצָ&#1488

“came out” and hotsi (הוֹצִי&#1488

“brought out.” These are all pairs of words with associated meanings, but the meaning is brought out in the various binyanim in which the shoresh ﬁnds expression. It would be absurd to say that yatsa means both “came out” and “brought out.” That’s simply not true.

And it is similarly untrue that mut means both “die” and “kill.” That’s not the case at all.

Again, my problem is with people who don’t know Hebrew attempting to teach others the language. It leads to a ton of misinformation and incorrect statements.

daq · Dec 28, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
I was opposing your use of mut (מוּ&#1514 to mean kill or put to death. It doesnt mean that. It means die, and it means only die. The word kill or put to death is a different word based in the same root. It is the word hemit (הֵמִי&#1514. The distinction is like that between nichnas (נִכְנַ&#1505 entered and hichnis (הִכְנִי&#1505 inserted or caused to enter. Its the difference between ba (בָּ&#1488 came and hevi (הֵבִי&#1488 brought. Its the difference between yatsa (יָצָ&#1488 came out and hotsi (הוֹצִי&#1488 brought out. These are all pairs of words with associated meanings, but the meaning is brought out in the various binyanim in which the shoresh ﬁnds expression. It would be absurd to say that yatsa means both came out and brought out. Thats simply not true.

And it is similarly untrue that mut means both die and kill. Thats not the case at all.

Again, my problem is with people who dont know Hebrew attempting to teach others the language. It leads to a ton of misinformation and incorrect statements.

How does a linguist not understand that my post from above is arguing the very same point? It is not myself who states that MUT means TO KILL in the passage which was quoted. Rather it is King James and his court with all of the English translations that followed suit who translate this passage as KILL. When another had quoted the verse I simply attempted to bring to his attention the very same point which you are attempting to make with me:

Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV
39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, [HSN#4191 muwth] and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Facts are facts and clearly posted in the above conversation.
How about this one in the Greek:

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Is "murderer" a fair translation?

yonah_mishael · Dec 28, 2012

daq said:
How does a linguist not understand that my post from above is arguing the very same point? It is not myself who states that MUT means TO KILL in the passage which was quoted. Rather it is King James and his court with all of the English translations that followed suit who translate this passage as KILL. When another had quoted the verse I simply attempted to bring to his attention the very same point which you are attempting to make with me:

Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV
39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, [HSN#4191 muwth] and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Facts are facts and clearly posted in the above conversation.
How about this one in the Greek:

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Is "murderer" a fair translation?

No, the King James translators did not translate mut as “kill.” That’s my point! You can’t read the text and see the difference between יָמוּת “he will die” and יָמִית “he will kill.” You simply don’t know enough to even realize when you’ve made a mistake. NO ONE (including the translators of the KJV) thinks that mut could ever in anyone’s wildest dreams mean “kill.” That’s an impossible meaning of the word! Mut is intransitive and must mean “die” and only “die.” It never means “kill.” Is that clear enough?

Indeed, the phrase in Deut 32:39 is אֲנִ֧י אָמִ֣ית וַֽאֲחַיֶּ֗ה ani amit va’achayeh. The verb you’re looking for is אָמִית amit, meaning “I will kill,” not אָמוּת amut, which means “I will die.” These are NOT the same word!

In Greek the difference is between ἀποθνῄσκω (die) and ἀποκτείνω (kill). The one is the causative of the other; that is, “kill” means “to cause to die” or “to put to death.”

By the way, another word for generic killing in Hebrew, by the way, is הָרַג harag (verbal noun הֶ֫רֶג héreg). The word that you’re talking about is generally used for capital punishment (“put to death&#8221

rather than for murder (רֶ֫צַ&#1495

or general killing (הֶ֫רֶ&#1490

.

Qnts2 · Dec 28, 2012

daq said:
How does a linguist not understand that my post from above is arguing the very same point? It is not myself who states that MUT means TO KILL in the passage which was quoted. Rather it is King James and his court with all of the English translations that followed suit who translate this passage as KILL. When another had quoted the verse I simply attempted to bring to his attention the very same point which you are attempting to make with me:

Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV
39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, [HSN#4191 muwth] and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Facts are facts and clearly posted in the above conversation.
How about this one in the Greek:

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Is "murderer" a fair translation?

Yonah is correct.

When trying to study Hebrew using a lexicon, the problem is that Hebrew verbs have many different forms, with different meanings.

These different meanings can make the verb an actively finished act. Or make the verb mean something inactive. This is just a generalized example.

Lexicons take only one form of the verb, and gives a definition. But with the varying forms, a single base (root) verb can mean kill or die, depending on the form it takes. So, amut and amit, are the same root, but have different meanings. The actual text does not say mut, or amut. It says amit, which means to kill. Amut means to die.

Lexicons can not be used to translate Hebrew text, because of the grammatical variations. You have to be able to read the original Hebrew text to translate, so you can see which form the verb actually takes.

yonah_mishael · Dec 28, 2012

Qnts2 said:
Yonah is correct.

Well, that’s obvious enough. LOL

Qnts2 said:
Lexicons take only one form of the verb, and gives a definition. But with the varying forms, a single base (root) verb can mean kill or die, depending on the form it takes. So, amut and amit, are the same root, but have different meanings. The actual text does not say mut, or amut. It says amit, which means to kill. Amut means to die.

I think this deserves to be stressed. They are the same root, but not the same word. The root of “go out” is י.צ.א – as is the root of “take out.” The difference is what we call “binyan” in Hebrew. “Go out” is qal, and it looks like יצא. “Take out” is hiphil, and it looks like הוציא. No one would ever confuse these two words. Although they are of the same root, they are completely different words. The same is true of מת “died” and המית “put to death.”

Qnts2 said:
Lexicons can not be used to translate Hebrew text, because of the grammatical variations. You have to be able to read the original Hebrew text to translate, so you can see which form the verb actually takes.

I wouldn’t generalize this problem. Rather than saying that this is a drawback of lexicons generally, I would state speciﬁcally that this is a drawback of using Strong’s dictionary. His original dictionary did not include a single remark about binyanim, but the BlueLetterBible.org version of Strong’s dictionary divides the words up by binyan – so it makes Strong’s dictionary somewhat more useful and correct. All decent lexicons provide the relevant information (along with speciﬁc forms) that will help the attentive layperson tell the difference between one form and another. Strong’s is seriously problematic and almost useless for anyone serious about the language.

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