Sin in the Garden

Phantasman

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Because the fall was caused by a sexual sin.

I would agree that the Tree of Life is symbolic. But you use the word "sin" with sex, which is so global. They didn't sin, they transgressed. One apart from the other. Unless you are thinking the serpent was a part of Adam's appendage, which just shows ignorance.
 
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Clare73

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I would agree that the Tree of Life is symbolic. But you use the word "sin" with sex, which is so global. They didn't sin, they transgressed. One apart from the other. Unless you are thinking the serpent was a part of Adam's appendage, which just shows ignorance.
Umm, b-a-a-d. . .:blush:

In the faith,
Clare
 
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strangertoo

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
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Because the fall was caused by a sexual sin.

why would you say such a bizarre thing ? - evidence please...

there was no 'fall' ... and married sex is no sin anyway ...
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Do you sin?
that is for God to say, not me ...
What do you think of what God says in 1Jn 1:8-10?

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we are the confessing-sin ones, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

I am in the confessing-sin group.

Where do you fit in here?

In the faith,
Clare
 
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strangertoo

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Knowing good and evil came after eating the fruit, but he knew good was doing what God said before he ate it.

You contradicted yourself... how could he know good before having the knowledge of good ...
He followed Eve, instead of manning up and saying "NO", he caved.

stop putting words into scripture , it is a serious sin to do so...

Then the knowing evil set in, guilt, shame and avoiding the truth set in.

not so ... he certainly knew it WOULD have been a sin if he had known beforehand ... but he had no reason whatoever for guilt because he was not guilty ... that is the Truth, not what you said... so you are again sinning with false accusations... read it again and repent your needless sin...
 
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strangertoo

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Why did Yahweh try matching man with every creature before woman?...

It's what a foolish god would do.

man and dog proved great companionship for some men... some folks love their cats more than other folks... man and horse has been one of the all-time greats.... nor all folks want to mate and in fact Love of all has nothing whatsoever to do with sex despite misconceptions of sinners... and as Paul pointed out , saints can serve God better without a mate ...

1 Corinthians 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
1 Corinthians 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
 
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strangertoo

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:confused:

Romans 5:16(NKJV)
16And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

who's the one who sinned? :confused:

no-one... it is a negative CONDITIONAL statement , not even remotely an accusation of sin... please read the whole, sin is NOT imputed without the law :-

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was [NOTE: 'were' - subjuctive in this conditional!] by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
 
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strangertoo

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Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

there is no accusation of any sin here ...

Rom 5:13 ... sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam was outside the law until receiving knowledge of good and evil as the 'fruit' of the tree of that knowledge ... that is the whole point of it being the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as Paul expiains in detail...
 
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strangertoo

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"Knowledge of good and evil" here is not intellectual knowledge, it is experiential knowledge, by guilt.

we might regard it as a story about mankind acquiring a conscience... but the point Paul makes in detail is that there is no sin, no guilt, no shame until there is the law... Adam is definitively without the law of good and evil until he has knowledge of it AFTER eating the fruit from the source of that knowledge,the tree ...

Adam knew intellectually the difference between obedience and disobedience, but he did not yet know guilt.
The tree was simply the object of God's law which, if disobeyed, would give him personal knowledge of guilt,
which is exactly what happened.

it does not change that Adam was innocent before eating the fruit, he could not sin without the knowledge of what is sin

Your explanation does not agree with the way things work in the human order regarding the matter.

Rather the bible does say things differently than you do , Paul explains your mistake in exacting detail... you , like many, have been misled by sinners ... Jesus said to wait for spirit baptism from God, not to learn from sinners John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11 Jesus died to bring you that, so why not listen to his advice and get the Truth from God, not men ? :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

It really makes no sense insisting that sinners are right and the scripture of saints and prophets is wrong ... the Holy Spirit will confirm the saints and prophets if you stop sinning so God can teach you ...

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

it is a BIG mistake to decide in faith in sinners before spirit baptism teaches the Truth... sinners cannot know God or Jesus ... Jesus died to bring you the Truth from God 100% pure , why spurn it to follow sinners in mass religion of sinners ?
 
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strangertoo

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I would agree that the Tree of Life is symbolic. But you use the word "sin" with sex, which is so global. They didn't sin, they transgressed. One apart from the other. Unless you are thinking the serpent was a part of Adam's appendage, which just shows ignorance.

Adam's sexual relations with his WIFE is much later and it is not a sin in any way to have sex with one's spouse... :-

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.
 
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strangertoo said:
Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.


Notice she says, "I have gotten a man from the Lord".
Not from Adam.
My interpretation is the first child of Adam and Eve is Seth.

Look back at the end of ch 3. Adam gets kicked out of the garden, and the woman doesn't.

The secret book of John is more specific and less confusing.
 
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Clare73

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strangertoo said:
Clare73 said:
there is no accusation of any sin here ...

Do you sin?
that is for God to say, not me ...
What do you think of what God says in 1Jn 1:8-10?

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we are the confessing-sin ones, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

I am in the confessing-sin group.

Where do you fit in here?

In the faith,
Clare
 
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strangertoo

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What do you think of what God says in 1Jn 1:8-10?

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we are the confessing-sin ones, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
I am in the confessing-sin group.

Where do you fit in here?

when Jesus returns he will take only tens of thousands of saints [most needing resurrection before translation to spirit -'salvation'] -Jude 1:14 - surely it is not news , saints perfected in Love in baptism of fire [trial of Love to the death] ... Jesus can take no sinners whatsoever , why would one not believe him ? :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so if one has the WILL to be one of the FEW [Matt 7:13-14] , not be destroyed and saved after the Millennium , then one MUST stop sinning... but it is GOD WHO DECIDES if one has succeeded, there is no point claiming one is not a sinner because most do not even acknowledge to themselves all their sin... one would simply most likely be lying to oneself to claim one knew ... it is God's call , not ours ...God will judge if our Love was enough after we stopped sinning in water baptism , or NOT ... for most the answer is that they know full well that they haven't stopped sinning, and thus there is a HUGE market for religion of sinners worldwide... plenty of folks , millions even, willing to offer lies about salvation for a living , billions willing to follow sinners because they seem-so-sincere ... but then there is the scripture that reveals the lies , even Jesus' revelation that the world will UNITE in worship of the WRONG GOD , the wrong Christ, the Antichrist ...it will happen -Rev 13:3-4 - united religion sounds great until one realises that Jesus says it MUST be false , run by Satan himself as a man...cast out of heaven and with three and a half years only to convert the whole earth to worship him... almost succeeds, but Jesus comes back early to save the last few saints alive :-

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

so much for mass religion of sinners then , led by sinners for money, not to destroy sin, but to keep folks sinning all their lives so that God cannot baptise them to know the Truth [as facing God kills sinners]

hence the stories by sinners of continual fake confessions without giving up sin at all , even deathbed confessions ... but it takes TIME to perfect Love in LIFE , no use saying words, one has to believe in Love, have faith in Love to DO it in face of temptation to sin, to REJECT sin as ABUSE of folks, so STOP sinning ... not just to one's own knowledge, but once one has stopped enough sin then God can help with spirit baptism to show one the rest of one's sin... but again, it is one's own choice whether to Love or sin... Love can only be given freely , one will not Love if one wants to sin because one has believed Satan's lies that sin is great... in fact all sin is misery eventually , but Satan knows how short-sighted is mankind ...

and as Jesus says, once one starts sinning it becomes ever harder to stop ...even after things go wrong because of sin ...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin

anyway it is obvious why Jesus struggled so hard to get men spirit baptism, all Truth from God [John 16:13] to be able to defeat all Satan's wiles tempting folks to abuse one another ...it is the proverbial wedge in the door ... God requires only the few to run the kingdom, but once it is up and running , run by prefect Love [no sin tolerated] then it saves billions [Rev 7:9-10] resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] who were all destroyed in this life for sin [Matt 7:13] , but freed from sin by death [Romans 6:7] , so God is able to baptise all flesh straight away after resurrection of the previously unjust , as long ago promised[Joel 2:28] ... thus God has already won most men from Satan by 'judgement day' ... and the evil-most ones left with Satan are making life a misery for one another instead of being able to find easy prey any more ... God has taken away billions who are more easily persuaded to love by means of the kingdom come of Jesus Christ...

so God's pleasure will all be done, as He states , all the wicked too will turn to Love in the end when sin can no longer be seen to pay in any way for them ... the lies just don't work any more because God has shown Love working...

so it is just a question of time, and of when one stops believing deluded sinners ...not if ... God will save all men as promised many times in scripture , indeed He must else He could not claim to be god of all men ... God cannot fail because He is God ... and He can only use Love to win, no punishment ... but it is men provide the suffering for other men, the trial of Love in long-suffering of saints, it is our sin that has destroyed the web of life which now will stop feeding us because of our lack of Love... but belief in sin will continue to dominate mankind until the day of the Lord when it all falls apart... and men doubt sin ,but too late to save themselves...

so seriously, God will say who Loves and who is still sinning, not us ...but all unbelievers in this earth will become believers in Love, in God, in teh new earth, God's word they will all accept His counsel of Love later ...

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways
 
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JohnRabbit

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I would agree that the Tree of Life is symbolic. But you use the word "sin" with sex, which is so global. They didn't sin, they transgressed. One apart from the other. Unless you are thinking the serpent was a part of Adam's appendage, which just shows ignorance.

:confused:

i thought that the definition of sin - to transgress!
 
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JohnRabbit

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no-one... it is a negative CONDITIONAL statement , not even remotely an accusation of sin... please read the whole, sin is NOT imputed without the law :-

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was [NOTE: 'were' - subjuctive in this conditional!] by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


if sin was not imputed, then why did death reign, (remember rom 6:23)?
 
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JohnRabbit

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That is what the Bible says.
Look up the usage of the word "know."


Like one of Us. . .how would intellectual knowledge of evil make him like God?

It's not about intellectual knowledge.
Adam had perfect human knowledge at his creation.
No one had to tell him if Eve fell out of a tree, she would hurt herself.
No one had to tell him it was wrong to disobey God.
That's not what it's about.

It's about rebellion, and knowledge of evil by guilt.

"knowing good and evil" = he would be like God in determining for himself what is good and what is evil.
That is rebellion against the rule of God.

However, John, our understanding of this is not necessary to salvation, so it's not important that we agree on this.

And I think that's where I will be leaving it.

In the faith,
Clare


the "knowledge of evil by guilt"?

read the verse again Clare.



let's start by reading the verse according the bilbe:


Genesis 3:22(NKJV)
22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

see? it says "to know good and evil".


now, let's read the verse according to Clare:


Genesis 3:22(ClareV)
22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know knowledge of evil by guilt. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—


see? your version says something totally different.
 
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Clare73

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there is no point claiming one is not a sinner because most do not even acknowledge to themselves all their sin... one would simply most likely be lying to oneself to claim one knew ... it is God's call , not ours ...
Thanks, strangertoo,

But hasn't God called it in his word written:

"If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8)

God has called it: no one is without sin.

Since no one is without sin, God then says:

"If we are confessing-sin ones, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)

So God has called it. . . no one is without sin.

Therefore, God says that all must confess sin in order to be forgiven and purified.

God doesn't leave us the option of dodging the conclusion about our sin.

He declares we are all sinners, and must confess (agree with him about) our sins in order to be forgiven and purified.

In the faith,
Clare
 
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