promoting abortion (defined as...) = excommunication from The Roman C Church

Goodness me! Some folk are given to hyperbole! "murderous acts"? You've got to be kidding!

Blackwater Babe said:

*sigh* I don't think its not murder, it simply isn't. Its simple word definition. Look up murder in any dictionary, and there's a word there in its inherent meaning that means it simply doesn't apply to a legal abortion.

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it goes agianst the laws of God, so it is unlawful

Rhamiel said:

it goes agianst the laws of God, so it is unlawful

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Amen, and this is what matters more than any other set of laws.

Rhamiel said:

it goes agianst the laws of God, so it is unlawful

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Why are you so determined to use an inappropriate word? Do you think its emotional impact is THAT much more important than accuracy?

Anyway, if we're going off "God's law" its pretty clear that killing a foetus is not considered murder in the Bible.

Blackwater Babe said:

Why are you so determined to use an inappropriate word? Do you think its emotional impact is THAT much more important than accuracy?

Anyway, if we're going off "God's law" its pretty clear that killing a foetus is not considered murder in the Bible.

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Seconded. In cases of war and infidelity, God orders the killing of children, born or unborn.

FrancesJames09 said:

Seconded. In cases of war and infidelity, God orders the killing of children, born or unborn.

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Not to mention the only time a punishment is discussed re: abortion, it is much lesser than the punishment for murder.

Does anyone here disagree that abortion...as a function of choice is morally wrong?

Does a single person here believe that someone has the right to decide, because they do not want a child at this time (for any reason) to kill that human being. That abortion willed as an end or means is morally allowable?

Abortion allowed as a matter of civil law is killing, it is unjust killing. And it is killing a person. That a country may make it legal does not make it right.

These are indisputable facts of the Catholic faith. And they always have been. There have been debates on ensoulment, but never with the intention of allowing abortion. It has been the constant belief that from conception life is to be protected. Early Church Fathers attest to this. As does the constant teaching of the Magisterium.

So the debate on the use of the word murder is academic at best. Abortion is wrong and it is the unjust killing of a person. The Church extends the identity of a person and human being to human life at all stages of development from conception forward.

Blackwater Babe said:

Not to mention the only time a punishment is discussed re: abortion, it is much lesser than the punishment for murder.

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That would the punishment under Hebrew Law in Exodus. We do not follow that law since it is perfected in Christ. We follow the perfection of the law.

We also do not prohibit mixing fibers in our clothes. Allowed to do what we want with our beards. And we can shake the hand of a woman having her period. Remember many Hebrew Laws exist because God was forming hearts with what they could accept...this is why the view on Divorce is different. They also existed to build society at the time under God's direction for what was needed to survive. This is different from the perfected and unchangeable moral law fulfilled by Christ and passed on through His Church. There are reasons we do not follow the Hebrew Law. It was not perfected yet. Some elements of it, like the Ten Commandments are valid eternally. But ritual law and codes of law are not valid since they were only the growing preparations for Christ and needed to be perfected in Him. One of these, as the ECF's attest was the prohibition on abortion.

It took thousands of years for the human heart to understand the basics of what Human Dignity was. It took until the revealed Truth in Christ to realize the impact of the Dignity of being in the Image of God.

Davidnic said:

That would the punishment under Hebrew Law in Exodus. We do not follow that law since it is perfected in Christ. We follow the perfection of the law.

We also do not prohibit mixing fibers in our clothes. Allowed to do what we want with our beards. And we can shake the hand of a woman having her period. Remember many Hebrew Laws exist because God was forming hearts with what they could accept...this is why the view on Divorce is different. They also existed to build society at the time under God's direction for what was needed to survive. This is different from the perfected and unchangeable moral law fulfilled by Christ and passed on through His Church. There are reasons we do not follow the Hebrew Law. It was not perfected yet. Some elements of it, like the Ten Commandments are valid eternally. But ritual law and codes of law are not valid since they were only the growing preparations for Christ and needed to be perfected in Him. One of these, as the ECF's attest was the prohibition on abortion.

It took thousands of years for the human heart to understand the basics of what Human Dignity was. It took until the revealed Truth in Christ to realize the impact of the Dignity of being in the Image of God.

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Thats all fine, except a few posts back someone claimed abortion is against "God's law". Which tends to mean the Bible. And it ain't so. Against the moral law of the new commandments, yeah, sure, but I don't think thats what the poster meant. Seriously, when someone sweeps in making pious pronouncements about other people not following "God's law", have they EVER been talking about Love on another as you would be loved? Or is it usually Leviticus 18:22?

Davidnic said:

Does anyone here disagree that abortion...as a function of choice is morally wrong?

Does a single person here believe that someone has the right to decide, because they do not want a child at this time (for any reason) to kill that human being. That abortion willed as an end or means is morally allowable?

Abortion allowed as a matter of civil law is killing, it is unjust killing. And it is killing a person. That a country may make it legal does not make it right.

These are indisputable facts of the Catholic faith. And they always have been. There have been debates on ensoulment, but never with the intention of allowing abortion. It has been the constant belief that from conception life is to be protected. Early Church Fathers attest to this. As does the constant teaching of the Magisterium.

So the debate on the use of the word murder is academic at best. Abortion is wrong and it is the unjust killing of a person. The Church extends the identity of a person and human being to human life at all stages of development from conception forward.

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We're all agreed here that abortion is immoral, I think. But that doesn't change te fact that words have specific meanings, and should be used as such. Nor does it change the fact that people who insist on calling abortion "murder", when they know very well it isn't, do so because a. They are only capable of grasping absolute concepts, or b. They find murder has more emotional resonance, and so use murder as an attempt to sway opinion, which is intelectually dishonest. Either way, these are two types of people I don't think should be trying to influence anyone else's opinion.

Blackwater Babe said:

Thats all fine, except a few posts back someone claimed abortion is against "God's law". Which tends to mean the Bible. And it ain't so. Against the moral law of the new commandments, yeah, sure, but I don't think thats what the poster meant. Seriously, when someone sweeps in making pious pronouncements about other people not following "God's law", have they EVER been talking about Love on another as you would be loved? Or is it usually Leviticus 18:22?

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THe Church teaches that it is a horrible sin to have an abortion
what is a sin if it is not a breaking of God's law?

as for your question about what I mean when I say God's laws, yes, I have used it that way, to act on hate, and envy, and greed, and lust, and pride, all of these things go agianst God's law
all of these things are an affront to human dignity and go agianst the brotherly love we should have for eachother

Blackwater Babe said:

Why are you so determined to use an inappropriate word? Do you think its emotional impact is THAT much more important than accuracy?

Anyway, if we're going off "God's law" its pretty clear that killing a foetus is not considered murder in the Bible.

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Can you show this from Scripture? If you can please do.

FrancesJames09 said:

Seconded. In cases of war and infidelity, God orders the killing of children, born or unborn.

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Here is the difference. You are not God.

Rhamiel said:

THe Church teaches that it is a horrible sin to have an abortion
what is a sin if it is not a breaking of God's law?

as for your question about what I mean when I say God's laws, yes, I have used it that way, to act on hate, and envy, and greed, and lust, and pride, all of these things go agianst God's law
all of these things are an affront to human dignity and go agianst the brotherly love we should have for eachother

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OK, say thats what you mean if you want. But I think you know very well that when people talk about legality, they aren't talking about "God's law". I feel very much like your point is to try to find fault with what I'm saying, rather than actually consider it.

Blackwater Babe said:

We're all agreed here that abortion is immoral, I think. But that doesn't change te fact that words have specific meanings, and should be used as such. Nor does it change the fact that people who insist on calling abortion "murder", when they know very well it isn't, do so because a. They are only capable of grasping absolute concepts, or b. They find murder has more emotional resonance, and so use murder as an attempt to sway opinion, which is intelectually dishonest. Either way, these are two types of people I don't think should be trying to influence anyone else's opinion.

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i am not being dishonest
it is murder because it goes agianst the law
it is clear that to kill ones own child is an affront to Natural Law
the Church teaches that it is agianst God's Law (meaning it is a sin)

the only laws that abortion does not violate would be the laws of the USA (or whatever nation you happen to be in, if infact it is legal in your nation)

Blackwater Babe said:

No they're not. Go look up the definition of "murderous".

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Here is the problem with your assertion. Murder is defined as an 'unlawful' taking of life. The question is whose law are you using to determine if it is murder. American law and many western country's law, the answer is yes in those countries it is not consider murder. But the question should be asked what about Divine and/or Natural Law? Is abortion considered murder via Divine and/or Natural Law?

Blackwater Babe said:

OK, say thats what you mean if you want. But I think you know very well that when people talk about legality, they aren't talking about "God's law". I feel very much like your point is to try to find fault with what I'm saying, rather than actually consider it.

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I am sorry if I seemed rude
but as Davidnic pointed out, the differance is academic

Erose said:

Can you show this from Scripture? If you can please do.

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Exodus 21:22-24 is the big one, where a punishment for abortion is outlined, and it is noteably different to the punishment for murder. Therefore, the Bible does not say abortion is murder, QED.

But here are some other ones where the Bible talks about abortion and infanticide as though its all quite reasonable.

Hosea 9:11-16 Numbers 5:11-21, Numbers 31:17 Hosea 13:16 2 Kings 15:16 1 Samuel 15:3 Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Psalms 137:9 Leviticus 20:9 2 Kings 6:28-29 Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Judges 19:24-29 Exodus 12:29 Exodus 20:9-10 2 Kings 2:23-24 Leviticus 26:301 Samuel 15:11-18 I Kings 16:34 Isaiah 13:15-18 Jeremiah 11:22-23 Jeremiah 19:7-9 Lamentations 2:20-22

Erose said:

Here is the problem with your assertion. Murder is defined as an 'unlawful' taking of life. The question is whose law are you using to determine if it is murder. American law and many western country's law, the answer is yes in those countries it is not consider murder. But the question should be asked what about Divine and/or Natural Law? Is abortion considered murder via Divine and/or Natural Law?

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You're on a losing horse there buddy. Not even the church calls abortion "murder". When talking about laws and legality, unless otherwise stated, its understood you're talking about secular law.

Rhamiel said:

the Church teaches that it is agianst God's Law (meaning it is a sin)

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So call it a sin then, and avoid looking like you're implying something has all the conotations of a secular legal term, i.e. murder.