Easter Poll - date the Cross

Gideon · Mar 29, 2012

It's getting near Easter! We celebrate the cross and resurrection because it was the apex of human history. We agree that the earth-shattering sacrifice on Calvary was the fulfilment of that which was written.

Why is it then that there isn't unanimous agreement about the date of the crucifixion? Experts differ from approximately AD 27 to AD 36 as to when it happened and followers say it doesn't matter much anyway. It does matter. It is the center point of prophecy! Entire prophetic systems stand or fall on correct timing as it concerns the chronology of the cross.

So when? Exactly when was it?

Going Merry · Mar 29, 2012

I voted 33, since high priests have to be 30.

3 Angels Messages · Mar 29, 2012

...we know in Ezra 7 that the 7th year of Artaxerxes the decree went forth, and with the hand of God upon Ezra, etc, the 7th year of Artaxerxes would be 457 BC, would it not? Let's verify that...

"Artaxerxes (Hebrew: [FONT=&quot]אַרְתַּחְשַׁסְתְּא‎, pronounced [artaχʃast]) commissioned Ezra, a Jewish priest-scribe, by means of a letter of decree, to take charge of the ecclesiastical and civil affairs of the Jewish nation. A copy of this decree may be found in Ezra 7:13-28.

Ezra thereby left Babylon in the first month of the seventh year (~ 457 BCE) of Artaxerxes' reign, at the head of a company of Jews that included priests and Levites. They arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month of the seventh year (Hebrew Calendar).

The rebuilding of the Jewish community in Jerusalem had begun under Cyrus the Great, who had permitted Jews held captive in Babylon, to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple of Solomon. Consequently, a number of Jews returned to Jerusalem in 538 B.C., and the foundation of this "Second Temple" was laid the following year.

In Artaxerxes' 20th year (444 B.C.)[5], Nehemiah, the king's cupbearer, apparently was also a friend of the king as in that year Artaxerxes inquired after Nehemiah's sadness. Nehemiah related to him the plight of the Jewish people and that the city of Jerusalem was undefended. The king sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem with letters of safe passage to the governors in Trans-Euphrates, and to Asaph, keeper of the royal forests, to make beams for the citadel by the Temple and to rebuild the city walls.[6]" [Wikipedia; Artaxerxes I, Longimanus; Portrayal in the Book of Ezra and Nehemiah]

"[/FONT]Year 457 BC was a year of the pre-Julian Roman calendar. At the time, it was known as the Year of the Consulship of Pulvillus and Augurinus or Cincinnatus and Vibulanus (or, less frequently, year 297 Ab urbe condita). The denomination 457 BC for this year has been used since the early medieval period, when the Anno Domini calendar era became the prevalent method in Europe for naming years. ...

... Persian Empire

Artaxerxes I decrees that the city government of Jerusalem shall be re-established.[1]" [Wikipedia; 457 BC]

These should suffice for now...

So, since there are 4 decrees in scripture given that could possibly fit, the only dates which can apply to the Daniel Prophecy are these alone, and only to one of them can the 483 years be added [69 weeks of the 70 weeks],

[1.] The decree of Cyrus II recorded in Ezra 1:1-4. 536 BC
[2.] The decree of Darius I the Persian (Hystaspes) recorded in Ezra 6:1-12. 520 BC
[3.] The decree of Artaxerxes I (Longimanus) recorded in Ezra 7:12-26. 457 BC
[4.] The decree of Artaxerxes I (Longimanus) mentioned in Nehemiah chapters 1 and 2. 444/445 BC

If we add 483 years [69 weeks of the 70 weeks], and then add 3 1/2 years until Christ's death death, and 3 1/2 years until end of 70 weeks] to these decree dates:

[1.] 536 BC + 483 years = BC 53 [still BC] + 3 1/2 years = 49/48 BC [still BC] + 3 1/2 years = 45/44 BC [still BC, end of 70 weeks]
[2.] 520 BC + 483 years = BC 37 [still BC] + 3 1/2 years = 33/32 BC [still BC] + 3 1/2 years = 29/28 BC [still BC, end of 70 weeks]
[3.] 457 BC + 483 years = AD 27 [no year 0] + 3 1/2 years = AD 31 + 3 1/2 years = AD 34 [end of 70 weeks]
[4.] 444 BC + 483 years = AD 40 [no year 0] + 3 1/2 years = AD 43/44 + 3 1/2 years = AD 47/48 [end of 70 weeks]

So, of the 4 possibilities, the first two [1. and 2.] are completely out of the question, being entirely too early, as they are not even close to Christ Jesus anointing [or even His birth], and also do not reconcile with the whole of Daniel [especially chapter 11, and the 'tax']. The fourth [4.] is also out of the question, being entirely too late even for His death.

The only option that is even of sense to the prophetic scriptures of Daniel, etc. is obviously the third [3.] choice. Now, this is not merely one of sheer convenience, but rather one of ordered mathematics, rulerships of kings and heads of state, scripture and God's providence.

We know by so many texts and historical record that it was indeed the year AD 31 in which Christ Jesus [Messiah the Prince] died, fulling Prophecy to the exact specifications set forth so many millenia ago in the Word of God.

457 BC is the beginning of the Decree in Ezra 7 and thus the 2300 day/years also ended in 1844 [and we can also know this by other corresponding prophecies preceding it which were also fulfilled].

[having begun in 457 BC; Ezra 7, etc [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_BC] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ezrachonology.jpg]]:

Notice Luke’s Historical account:

Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Luke 3:1

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TwentySevenAD.jpg] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Tetrarch] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_great][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As for the Daniel 9 passages, the internal consistency requires it to be Jesus Christ being referred to, and for the day/year principle:[/FONT]

One prophetic day is equal to one literal year:

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. Numbers 14:34

Numbers 14:34 ("...each day for a year..."; Jesus is also the Reality to the type of the people Israel who wandered in the desert 40 years, and so since He is True Israel [Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15], He wandered in the wilderness 40 days; Matthew 4:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2 and was victorious over temptation and sin, unlike the typological Israel in the wilderness which had failed and sinned and so wandered 40 years),

And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. Ezekiel 4:6

Ezekiel 4:6 ("...I have appointed thee each day for a year.", Ezekiel was a contemporary prophet to Daniel's time, in the days of the captivity of Israel to Babylon, in which the prophecies were given "unto Messiah the Prince"),

And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected. Luke 13:32

Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Luke 13:33

Luke 13:32,33 ("...to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.", Jesus said this 6 months into His ministry and He did not preach three more days, but rather, exactly three more years as the prophetic timeline so specified, and to which He spake of several times. Jesus knew the prophecies of Daniel, even citing that the “time is fulfilled” [Mark 1:15] to begin His ministry and to preach the Gospel, and also when His time was ending and HE was about to be Crucified, he said, "My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciple" [Matthew 26:18]) Jesus constantly spoke about time, and in several instances said, "my time is not yet full come" [John 7:6,8], for He was to fulfilled exactly in every detail the specific time prophecy in Daniel. Jesus had to die in AD 31, which was 69 weeks plus the 1/2 of the final 70th week, being 486 1/2 years from the going forth of the decree in Ezra 7, 457 BC [the 7th Year of Artaxerxes reign]. There were a total of four decrees, but only the 3rd one in that year can apply to this prophetic timeline. The others do not fit in any way, being either too early or too late. Therefore AD 31...

...to be continued...

3 Angels Messages · Mar 29, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7644767/#post60140094
...to be continued...

...continued...

We also know that Jesus makes direct mention of the prophecy of Daniel in the part of the "abomination of desolation", that it was even in His day, yet to come [Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20].

This means that the 70 prophetic weeks, sectioned from and part of the 2300 days [Daniel 8:14], must be [70 weeks, 7 days per week, is] 70 x 7 years = 490 years; Jesus also references the forgiveness to Peter of the same exact timeframe, forgiveness of 70 x 7, which God had given and cut off for the Jews; Matthew 18:22] to have continued so long.

Compare also [Type; people Israel] Numbers 14:33, 32:13; Deuteronomy 2:7, 8:2, 29:5; Joshua 5:6, 14:10; Nehemiah 9:21; Amos 2:10, 5:25; Acts 7:30,36,42, 13:18; Hebrews 3:17 to [Anti-Type; Jesus Israel, Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15] Matthew 4:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2.

Even considering the very words of the Pharisees in Jesus' day, they too knew that to build a temple, streets walls, and more would take way more than a mere couple of weeks, for even they have said of the Temple they were used to, “...Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?” - John 2:20

Daniel 9:24-27 are merely the first portion of the greater 2300 day/years [Daniel 8:14]:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27

For it is obvious that the 70 weeks are one timeframe, altogether, but are sectioned throughout for specific events, but are still consecutively counted, totaling the 70 weeks, otherwise it is no 70 weeks. The word "determined" is the Hebrew word, "chathak" and means "1) to divide, determine; a) (Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out" [Strong's Concordance], so we see that the 70 weeks are sectioned from a larger number, and that number can only be the one from the previous chapter that had not yet received full explanation, the 2300 days. The passage in Daniel 9:27 even speaks of "even until the consumation".

We also know that the passages of Daniel continually speak about this "Prince", "Messiah", "Messiah the Prince", and this is Jesus Christ. In fact, He is the only one to make a covenant and to confirm it. We can see a direct correlation in the passages at the 'last supper' itself:

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Mark 14:24

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:20

After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:25

Notice the very same words, "covenant/testament" and "many" and "sins" between Daniel 9 and these passages.

How then can Jesus confirm the covenant for the 1 full remaining 70th week when He dies in the midst of it, 3 1/2 years into His Ministry; AD 31? In AD 34 Stephen was martyred and the Jewish Council rejects Stephen. Notice with me this passage:

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; Hebrews 2:3

So, we see that Jesus confired the Covenant by Himself and then through His Apostles [witnesses] and thus the 70 weeks are up in AD 34, but that was merely the first portion, that which was "determined" and sectioned from the greater 2300 days. There were 1810 years left, then the sanctuary would be cleansed, but by then there was no physical temple on earth, except the people of God, know ye not that ye are the Temple of the living God? and the one in Heaven which the earthly was patterned after. Jesus mediates there for us now.

There are many many more reasons why we are to apply the day for a year in these prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation.

Here are a great deal more:

http://secretsunsealed.org/downloads/yeardayprinciple.pdf

Internal consistency for one. Historical accuracy for another. In Daniel 9 we see that Gabriel was come to finish the explanation which had been left off of in Daniel 8, compare the words "mar'eh" and "chazown" carefully. We may know by earlier chapters, Daniel 2, 7, 8 that the prophecies Daniel are unfolding in greater and greater detail, and since the previous chapters detail specific Kingdoms [Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Papal Rome, even unto the end... with specific events in each to happen] we know that the timelines given in them span centuries and thousands of years, not mere weeks. Daniel was so caught off guard by the enormity of the time given in Daniel 8:14, that he faints, for he had reckoned according to the prophcies of Jeremiah that their captivity was soon to be over in Babylon, but after having received such an enormous timeline, he was perplexed, confused and greatly astonished. Additonally we may know that since Daniel 8, continues in Daniel 9-12 [which also greatly unfolds in more detail Daniel 2, 7], we can understand, especially by Daniel 11, that we are not dealing with mere standard weeks of time, but centuries. For Daniel 11 is the continued auditory explanation of the vision begun in Daniel 8.

We may also know by the direct link between the Books of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. Especially compare Daniel 7 to Revelation 13. Daniel is looking forward, while John looked backwards [briefly before moving onward]. The visions given in Daniel deal with all of the time from Babylon until the very end, and judgment, when the Ancient of Days came and the judgment was set [which is going on today, Revelation 14:7, "judgment is come"], even until the end.

The very way in which Daniel and Revelation were written, in Chiastic/Epanados structural formats excludes the possibility of mere weeks of time.

Common sense dictates that many many years were needed to build up the walls and streets of Jerusalem. It had been levelled to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar [II, the Babylonian King under which Daniel was taken]. Even from the books of Esther, Ezra and so forth [Nehemiah], etc, we see that the building did not go smoothly and was even interrupted by a ursurping King [Artaxerxes of Ezra 4:7,8,23, aka False Smerdis, Pseudo Bardiya]. For it was the Law of the Medes and Persians that their Law could not change, and the Decree originally given by Cyrus [II the Great], was cast aside by this usurper. It took Darius the Persian [Hystaspes I] to kill the usurper and restore the decree again once He was ruler, but even this decree was incomplete. It was not until the reign of Artaxerxes I Longimanus in His 7th Year that the good Decree goes forth under Ezra [Ezra 7], by the Hand of the Lord His God upon Him, having full restoration given.

If Christ Jesus did not die in AD 31, then He is not the Messiah according to Daniel, for no matter what other prophecies may have been fulfilled by Jesus, unless the specific time was so fulfilled, even as He [Jesus] hast said, Time is at hand... AD 27...anointed; 3 1/2 years later..., not only by prophecy, but also typology, the Lamb was gathered 3 1/2 days before its sacrifice [Nisan 10 -Nisan 14]; and so much more therefore - AD 31

...now consider Daniel 8:14, and a larger prophecy opens already in progress, beginning in 457 BC.; for the 70 weeks was merely the tip of the 2300 day/years.

3 Angels Messages · Mar 29, 2012

hl2 said:
I voted 33, since high priests have to be 30.

Indeed He did have to be 30, but since Christ Jesus was born roughly 4 BC [according to Chronology, to be cited if needed], adding 30 years, we come to AD 27 [anointed in the Jordan], and then He minsters 3 1/2 years and dies in AD 31 according to the time prophecies of Daniel.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7644767/#post60140094

http://www.christianforums.com/t7644767/#post60140101

"JESUS being 30 years old:

Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, Luke 3:21

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Luke 3:22

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli, Luke 3:23

The very age given in scripture:

From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. Numbers 4:3

From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; all that enter in to perform the service, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. Numbers 4:23

From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old shalt thou number them, every one that entereth into the service, to do the work of the tabernacle of the congregation. Numbers 4:30

From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation: Numbers 4:35

From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation, Numbers 4:39

From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation, Numbers 4:43

From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation, Numbers 4:47" - http://www.christianforums.com/t7624213/#post59550914

PaladinValer · Mar 30, 2012

It doesn't matter.

Yarddog · Mar 30, 2012

I voted 30 AD because that put a span of 40 years between the crucifix and the destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple, in 70 AD.

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 30, 2012

Gideon said:
It's getting near Easter! We celebrate the cross and resurrection because it was the apex of human history. We agree that the earth-shattering sacrifice on Calvary was the fulfilment of that which was written.

Why is it then that there isn't unanimous agreement about the date of the crucifixion? Experts differ from approximately AD 27 to AD 36 as to when it happened and followers say it doesn't matter much anyway. It does matter. It is the center point of prophecy! Entire prophetic systems stand or fall on correct timing as it concerns the chronology of the cross.

So when? Exactly when was it?

No one knows....

I think 31 AD - give or take a couple of years - seems the best guess.

If "prophecy systems" fall because the EXACT date isn't know, then let them fall. If God needed us to know the date, He would have told us.

.

Standing Up · Mar 30, 2012

Yarddog said:
I voted 30 AD because that put a span of 40 years between the crucifix and the destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple, in 70 AD.

I'd agree it seems the best fit as the 40-year fulfillment of the shadow of wilderness wandering after leaving egypt for repentance.

So, Christ begins preaching about 27ad, then dies 30ad, then leaves 3 1/2 years of the 70 years. It's really close to #3 command to rebuild, noted above.

katherine2001 · Mar 30, 2012

PaladinValer said:
It doesn't matter.

I agree with you. All that matters is that He was crucified and resurrected. It doesn't matter to me whether we know the year or not.

Gideon · Mar 30, 2012

Yarddog said:
I voted 30 AD because that put a span of 40 years between the crucifix and the destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple, in 70 AD.

Yes, Eusebius (roman historian) actually says so in his book.

Kristos · Mar 30, 2012

If you look at the Jewish calendar many of these years can be eliminated - unless of course you think that Christ was crucified on a Tuesday...

Abrahamist · Mar 30, 2012

I voted 29AD. If he born in 4 BC, and most sources TMK seem to agree this is the most likely date, then that would make him 33 in 29AD.

Achilles6129 · Mar 30, 2012

April 3, 33 AD. See my thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7636161/

Kristos · Mar 30, 2012

Sir Isaac Newton wrote an interesting piece on the year of the crucifixion. He concluded 34 btw based on the assumption of plucking the ears two year prior must have been a late passover (that excluded 33 for him anyway).

Easter Poll - date the Cross

When was the year of the Cross?

AD 29

AD 30

AD 31

AD 32

AD 33

AD 34

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