Who is God?

Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. " John 1:17 " For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ". Ephisians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace; Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross". There is no longer anything there for you to sin against. 1 John 3:9 " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". 1 John 4:7 "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; ans every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God". 1 Timothy 2:4 For God "Who will have all men be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth" God does not hear sinners (John 9:31), if you commit sin, you have not seen or known God 1 John 3:6, and "He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. 1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" Romans 13:8 " Owe no man any thing but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law" Do you love someone? Peace, love and understanding in the Lord Jesus Christ. Barry

bricklayer said:

God chose to have man sin and then to save man from sin.
God holds man responsible for his own sins.
God does not hold Himself responsible for man's sins.

Apparently, God also chose to have some fools hold God responsible for man's sin.

The way I see it, there are two types of people in this world:
those who are examples of God's grace with the objects of His mercy,
and those who are examples of God's patience with the objects of His wrath.

Click to expand...

Yes, yes, might makes right. It's not deep or clever. It's two six year old kids and one toy.

The Paul said:

Yes, yes, might makes right. It's not deep or clever. It's two six year old kids and one toy.

Click to expand...

Are you seriously looking at God's sovereignty over His creation and accusing Him of "might makes right"?

God as my witness, I hope that I'm misunderstanding you.

bricklayer said:

Are you seriously looking at God's sovereignty over His creation and accusing Him of "might makes right"?

Click to expand...

I think it´s more like he´s looking at your argument and its implications.

quatona said:

I think it´s more like he´s looking at your argument and its implications.

Click to expand...

God is necessary; everything else is contingent.

bricklayer said:

God is necessary; everything else is contingent.

Click to expand...

So?

(God is necessary; everything else is contingent) is, to me, the single most significant truth and the foundation of my world view.

bricklayer said:

(God is necessary; everything else is contingent) is, to me, the single most significant truth and the foundation of my world view.

Click to expand...

Doesn´t mean that this mantra is a relevant response to any question asked or argument made.

(Actually, as I have told you before, I don´t think it´s even a meaningful statement. But that´s a different issue altogether.)

quatona said:

Doesn´t mean that this mantra is a relevant response to any question asked or argument made.

(Actually, as I have told you before, I don´t think it´s even a meaningful statement. But that´s a different issue altogether.)

Click to expand...

Unless we are discussing foundational things, it is most likely not the proper response; however, it is the foundation for what ever the answer is becasue all reasoning is presuppositional.

bricklayer said:

Unless we are discussing foundational things, it is most likely not the proper response; however, it is the foundation for what ever the answer is becasue all reasoning is presuppositional.

Click to expand...

So I am patiently awaiting a "proper response" - whenever you are ready.

quatona said:

So I am patiently awaiting a "proper response" - whenever you are ready.

Click to expand...

How about this? Rephrase the question and I'll rephrase my answer.

Gotta give you this, you make a fella think.

Doubt3312 said:

God created mankind. Mankind has a sinful nature. Therefore, God created mankind with a sinful nature. Then, God tells mankind "if you sin, you'll go to hell"

Click to expand...

And yet God never said that, so your premise for all this verbiage is suspect right from the start.

If Christianity is to be your polemical enemy, it might be advisable to learn a bit more about it before attempting to attack it.

Doubt3312 said:

If god foreknew that people (whom he supposedly loves beyond our comprehension) were going to suffer, die, and end up in hell (whatever hell is), then why create them in the first place?

Click to expand...

Uh, maybe because he thinks the end result is worth it, just like earthly parents who KNOW that their child will suffer measles, mumps, possible bullying, possible death and paralysis, and yet have him or her anyway. And parents do this WITHOUT any assurance that the child will ultimately be at peace, as God has with those whom he creates. "As in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (II Corinthians something or other)

Furthermore, why ensure those negative results by giving us a sinful nature?

Click to expand...

Because negative results are made positive through the cross. The positive result he is apparently striving for is that all his creatures be conformed to the image of his Son, and that they willingly love one another as they love Him. Yeah, I know. Why didn't he just (PRESTO!) make them saintly from the start? No drama. No joy of forgiveness, because nothing to forgive. No giving comfort, because nothing to comfort. No joy of victory because nothing to overcome. No poignant memories of the past, because no pain. Instant Glory!

Maybe that's not the kind of cosmos he had in mind.

So, if god created people with a sinful nature, then condemns them for sinning, then provides a single avenue for redemption that he knows few people will have access to,

Click to expand...

No. Again, familiarize yourself a bit more with your polemical target. Few people will have access? "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

I guess you meant during their biological lifetime. But death is not the end.

This leaves us with only two options. Either God does not exist, or our theology concerning him needs serious revision.

Click to expand...

Yours certainly seems in need of revision.

Theology definitely needs serious revision. You are discussing sin. What exactly is this 'sin'? It is essentially how God feels about our actions, is it not? So my actions offend God...

If God has it in his power to change his feelings about our actions, then isn't the onus on him to change not us? Afterall, he is omnipotent and we are powerless.

God designs my nature, then tells me it offends him, but he will send down his Son (who is also him) to be a man, and then sacrifice himself (to himself/his father) in order to absolve us of responsibility of the actions that he, himself, and the holy ghost find offensive?

This theology is absolutely sound and requires no revision whatsoever. In fact, those who deny it are condemned to hellfire for an eternity.

Why the hell is absolute truth so confusing? Is someone trying to manipulate me?

cXXo said:

Theology definitely needs serious revision. You are discussing sin. What exactly is this 'sin'? It is essentially how God feels about our actions, is it not? So my actions offend God...

If God has it in his power to change his feelings about our actions, then isn't the onus on him to change not us? Afterall, he is omnipotent and we are powerless.

God designs my nature, then tells me it offends him, but he will send down his Son (who is also him) to be a man, and then sacrifice himself (to himself/his father) in order to absolve us of responsibility of the actions that he, himself, and the holy ghost find offensive?

This theology is absolutely sound and requires no revision whatsoever. In fact, those who deny it are condemned to hellfire for an eternity.

Why the hell is absolute truth so confusing? Is someone trying to manipulate me?

Click to expand...

God does not have the potential to change exactly because He is infinite.
Any change would be a quantum shift from infinite to finite.
God is simple actuality. Man is a complex of actuality and potentiality.
Only God does not change; everything else does so constantly.
Biological life is a process, a sequence of prescribed changes.
We are intellectual, emotional and willful processes.
God is defined by His unchanging nature; we are defined by our changes.

God chose sin to reveal what "offends" Him and necessitate salvation.

God's purpose for His creation is not a creature centered purpose; it is a Creator centered purpose. We creatures are but "characters" in the revelation of His glory.

God's glory is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.

From an anthropocentric point of view, this creation seems an injustice.
From a theocentric point of view, it all makes perfect sense.

Why didn't he make us without sin?

Also, if a God has no capacity to change himself, he is not omnipotent.

cXXo said:

Why didn't he make us without sin?

Also, if a God has no capacity to change himself, he is not omnipotent.

Click to expand...

Why sequence questions beg a common context; we may not recognize a common context.

If God were to change He would no longer be omnipotent; He is already omnipotent.

cXXo said:

Theology definitely needs serious revision. You are discussing sin. What exactly is this 'sin'? It is essentially how God feels about our actions, is it not?

Click to expand...

Yeah. If your actions harm you or lead you into separation from God, he feels bad about those actions. Surely you'd have no problem with any hypothetical god doing that, since loving earthly parents do the same. They "feel bad about the actions" of their kids when they go astray.

So my actions offend God...

Click to expand...

I doubt it. They may grieve him or that may give him joy, depending on what they are, is my guess.

If God has it in his power to change his feelings about our actions, then isn't the onus on him to change not us?

Click to expand...

Well, maybe he just doesn't feel the onus you think he should to change his "feelings" about things like how love is good and envy is bad.

God designs my nature, then tells me it offends him,

Click to expand...

But he doesn't. In fact, Paul, sort of his NT Spokesman, says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. "What is man, that Thou art mindful of Him," asks the psalmist. Jesus of Nazareth didn't seem to be offended by the nature he took on, i.e. ours.

but he will send down his Son (who is also him) to be a man, and then sacrifice himself (to himself/his father) in order to absolve us of responsibility of the actions that he, himself, and the holy ghost find offensive?

Click to expand...

Wow!!! People actually believe that stuff? No wonder you're all worked up about it. So some sect is teaching that God is personally offended by the actions of people, actions which require individual absolution, and that the reason for the Incarnation was so that we'd be let off the hook for the penalty of these individual ACTIONS???

Who are these guys? Let me help you out. We'll go after them together. I'll bet you're like me in that you hate Bible-thumping, but should we tell these folks the part about giving an account of our misdeeeds at the Last Judgement? Should we discuss some of the severe punishments that God brought down on believers in the book of Acts for thier bad ACTIONS? Should we even attempt to explain how the crucifixion and resurrection was to save man from sin, not the penalty of sin, which is being in sin.

Why the hell is absolute truth so confusing?

Click to expand...

Somehow I have a strong feeeling you're not dealing with absolute truth here. You are confused by an inherently confusing doctrine.

Is someone trying to manipulate me?

Click to expand...

I can't answer that. Perhaps someone is pulling your leg when they tell you they believe the nonsense you posted above.

cXXo said:

Why didn't he make us without sin?

Click to expand...

You mean why didn't he make us so that we automatically (PRESTO!) love our enemy, right out of the box? No wait, No sin. No enemies. No joy of reconciliation, because no division. We're all BORN HAPPY! YIPPEEEE!!

(Maybe the idea repulsed Him)

Also, if a God has no capacity to change himself, he is not omnipotent.

Click to expand...

Hmm..., so maybe God thinks to Himself, "You know, I wish I could just start LIKING sinful things like hate and envy, and then I wouldn't be grieved when those I made in my image acted on them, but darn it, I just don't have the capacity for it."

Stiggy:

Consider that the people who told you all about God, all about what he wanted from us and demanded we do. What if they misinformed you? Not to be malicious, but because they were misinformed themselves. Take your beliefs, or rather the beliefs that have been given to you, and scrutinize them. Do they hold weight?

Does it logically follow that if there was a God, he would create us with a nature that offends him?

I personally believe that if God did exist, he would be far above the depiction found in the bible. A jealous god? Really? A god of wrath and anger? A petty god that would punishes for the sins of our ancestors? A god that is pleased and displeased by the actions of his creations?

If God was not above the petty human emotions you attribute to him, he would be repulsed by your ignorant insults against him.