Yes it is uncomfortable for us to look at all sins equally - what about the lying? Rev. 21:8 is upsetting. That's why I haven't quoted it. But I am NOT sure you actually KNOW Johhny Todd's Testimony - apologisies if you do! There seemed a touch of lack of respect for him, as he will read what you wrote at the beginning.
Firstly, i "never" said that he's lying. Neither did i "claim" i "know" his testimony.
i was merely pointing out the following
1 based on my experience with people who are gay and lived the experience, they all say they never made the choice to be gay and if they have choice, they would love to turn straight. This can be verified easily since this is what the gay community have been saying for years.
2 i was saying that, and rightly so, this is an online community, none of us know anything about each other background, or even met each other face to face. so without such knowledge, i am sure everyone would agree with me that it is impossible to verify Johnny Todd testimony. Like i have said, i did not accuse him of lying, i just meant that it cant verified.
3 The "fact" here are some self proclaimed Christians out there who have proven themselves to be capable of saying false things that intended to slander and hurt gay community. The family research council is a classic example. And again i have already provided you with an independent reference from the Southern Law Poverty Center. So was i in the wrong by saying that we need to be careful about this type of statement. I don't think so.
Since i was merely pointing the face regarding situation such as this in a general way. And i was not accusing him lying ( like i said i don't know anything about him). How was i being disrespectful? anyway, if i gave the impression that i was accusing him lying, then i will apologize for giving that impression. But like i have explained above, what i talked about has everything to do with this type of situation in general and precaution one need to take regarding it and nothing to do with his testimony.
"Healing is quite a contentious topic. But personally in my heart I always thought that if God said " don't" re same sex relationships he could help someone that could not envisage being with a woman."
Well personally i don't think healing is a contentious topic at all. Well, i don't think it is contentious within mainstream churches at all.I have been in church for years, and i have say i have never came across a preachers who
promise his/her congregations that if we needed it, God will always heal us. And i am pretty certain that most "born again" believers who are part of the mainstream church would agree me that it is not responsible for a pastor to teach that God will definitely heal us 100% without fail, if we needed it. And this is backed up by Christians experiences all around us.
Further more, you said "But personally in my heart", well, all i can say is we are all entitled to our personal opinions, but there is clear difference between what we believe personally what God would do as oppose what He actually says.
I mean, i am sure one could argue, using the same logic, for those who are born with severe physical deformity. But do God heal all Christians with physical deformities, no. And again this could be easily verified because i am sure we all came across Christians in such predicament before. I mean will God give them strength to cope with it. absolutely, just like He could give a gay Christian the strength to remain celibate.
"49 Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Ezekiel 49:49 - 59
But some of the " detestable things " may have been same sex intercourse. As below in romans 1:27
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
I am not quite sure what is the point you are trying to make above. But giving the fact i have already stated quite clearly in my last post "finally, i have said it once in this thread and i will say it again. people who have not giving in to temptation have not sinned, they should never be discriminated against or bullied simple because they cant change their orientation or choose not to."
It is quite clear that i do not agree with the sin homosexuality as "defined" by God, which is giving in to homosexual temptation. My guess is , based on my past experience, you are trying to say that not only homosexual orientation is a choice, based on the Roman passage, the orientation itself is a sin, right?
Well, i have to admit, i have been baffled by such interpretation of the scripture. Because
1 Anyone who read through that entire passage, and put those verses into its context, would see that Apostle Paul gave no indication what so ever that he was explaining the origin of homosexuality at all. In fact, he did not give us any indication that he was talking about anything other than that if Christians decided to turn their back on God, He will allow them to indulge in their sinful desires, one of which is physical intimacies with people from same gender.
2 Most gays i know, and from a science perspective, call themselves gay or classified as gay because of their exclusive attraction to people of the same sex. in fact, one of my closest gay friends, once told me that there is no chance in h*** that he will ever any kind of attraction towards females, and he has never feel that kind of attractions in the past. Also to me, those people Apostle Paul described fit the bills of bi sexual or bi curious rather than gays
3 Heb. 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." This passage is often used in church ( as you may already know) to show that able to be tempted in itself is "definitely" not a sin. Hence for Christians who try to use Roman 1:27 to show that homosexuality orientation in itself ie being tempted by the same gender is a sin, clearly contradict Lord's teaching in Heb 4 15.
Furthermore, i have seen Christians in the past who try to use Roman 1:27 as a proof that gay is indeed a choice for "all" and is a sin. They often start by saying they are merely trying to defend Gods word as is merely concerned about Gay community. However, if those gay Christians says they have the choice of not giving in temptations, but they don't think they have a choice in being tempted in the first place. All of the sudden, those Christians who claims to be coming out the place of love turns very nasty, and is not afraid to resort to bullying tatics as a punishment for those gay Christians who refuse ( in their opinions) to repent from the sin that is 'homosexual orientation" itself. That is why i am very cautious when i hear testimonies that can not be verified claims that not only God cured them, but it can happen for everyone, because such testimonies are often used by Christians who hold above view based on Roman 1;27 as a reason to bully gays.
There is a tide of mockery against Christians though, of being hopelessly antiquated in their beliefs and being too immature and stuck up to accept other orientations and this can make us look feeble . So there is a temptation to rely on others' opinions or interpretations . I realise I need to do my own reading of the Word.
i have already explained quite adequately above of how God's word only says that homosexual lifestyle ie giving in to temptation is a sin. But not the homosexual orientation ie being able to be tempted in the first place itself.
Anyone can come up with their own interpretation of scripture. But whether their interpretation can stands on it own will depends on how they link back to God's very Word itself, ie the strength of their argument. And i believe very strongly i have done a solid job of that.
Perhaps you have become passionate about your firends' plight and been pulled to one side a bit? A history of imprisoning Gay people and beating them up in the streets would do that. well, British History anyhow.
is the above statement meant to say that gays are liars and play victims? well, i have to say i don't agree with everything LGBT community tell me either, because they can certainly put spins on things, but unfortunately, so can "some" of fellow christians when it comes to this issue. Furthermore, it is a fact that gay orientation itself can cause definitely cause discriminations.
Just google mental health america , bullying and gay youth. or Teen's parents: After suicide, he's still being bullied today msnbc, just a few examples of what gays are going today. And i often wonder how those youth parents handles it all? So yes, i do feel compassionate towards both my friends as well as gay community plight. Does that mean i agree with gay lifestyle? no, not at all. But i will not allow myself to cross over from hating the sin to hate the sinners. I do not agree with gay lifestyle, but that does not mean i cant/shouldnt feel a sense of empathy toward them, seeing what are some of the thing they go through. And what i am doing is not contradicting scripture at all.
Just seems - if there was help available from God it's sad to deny that to people who might consider it. Always bearing in mind the love Christians show is a weak reflection of God's. That is - the person we preach to may feel our condemnation whereas if they encountered God they could meet his conviction of sin but also warmth and forgiveness.
i just to clarify i am not against them getting help from God at all. and i have never said such in my previous post. In fact, watching some of the things my gay friends go through, i would love for God to grant them all a miracle and set them free, and the same applied to my feeling towards gay community in general.
However, like i have pointed before and i will pointed out again, at this stage there is no proof from scripture that God will definitely grant miracles to everyone in this type of situations. And i have certainly not seen a proof of that ( that it will be given to everyone, i mean i have no doubt it does happens, just not that it will be given to everyone) in my Christian exp.
And such claim that "it can happen to everyone" can be used as way to bully gays and accusing them of faking it or not "want" it bad enough, and then justify bullying actions that follows.
Anyway, i have said it once and i will say it again, being tempted is not a sin, only giving in to temptation is. Hence even if a gay person dont want to go throught with it ( which i think is definitely not a wise decision, but it is a decision they are entitle to make for themselve if they wish). They should not be punished for it.
Also people who are not saved can seem a lot more lovalble than those of the Church.
Anyone who read through this post can see all my positions are clearly based on the scripture teaching, incl hating the sin but love the sinners. So yes, i am very much a Christ's follower. thank you. And i wont be making apologies for loving my fellow human beings ( incl the gays).
