For those here who are PRO Talmud

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

Greetings to all!

I know there is already a thread open concerning the Talmud, but being that it is MJ Only and this thread is intended to ultimately serve a different purpose, I make no apologies for starting it.

I initially had asked concerning this in a PM, but I figured I should get as many viewpoints or references as possible.

I am relatively new to MJ and would be called a Messianic Gentile (although I publicly refer to myself as simply Messianic.) Now while here and on other Messianic sites, there are many who have differing opinions as to the necessity/value of the Talmud for Messianics. I am NOT looking for debate on this issue. What I want is to be informed of the PRO-Talmud stance, more than just as commentary. Why do you hold that position and if/why I should?

If you suggest I read the Talmud, is there a place online that I can "download" all the sections of the Talmud in contrast to having to be online only to read it? Also are there any FREE sources online I could get this info as well in addition to any info I get here? My funds are limited to non-existant so, buying books in not an option.

I personally do not have a position on this matter as I am ignorant concerning the Talmud, I have not read it but I intend to read it no matter what position I eventually hold and therefore refuse to believe one way or another at the time being. And seeing that I do not want this to be a debate thread, I respectfully ask that only people who support or at least can give positive input regarding the Talmud, comment here. Once again, I am not saying I myself am pro-Talmud, I am neutral on the subject. PLEASE, if you are against the Talmud and you feel you must respond here, I ask that you do not give reason upon reason you are against it. I have heard it all and am on the fence regarding the subject.

Thank you kindly for your time in advance! :wave:

Avodat · Jan 1, 2012

I cannot see that you have a problem - you have the freedom to read whatever you want to read, so why not just go ahead and read it? If you do not wish to read it, then don't. As you say you do not intend to be swayed one way or the other by anything said here why are you asking?

GuardianShua · Jan 1, 2012

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism. It takes the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"&#1505

, a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

Some of it is worth the reading, other things, not.

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

I apologize if what I said was poorly worded.

What I had intended was that, if you post a pro comment, I am not just going to jump on the bandwaggon and go all for it.

I am looking for information from a position that normally is spoken against. That way I can look into what is given, and then eventually make an informed decision. It would be foolish to start the thread and not eventually take what is given to make up my mind one way or the other and I apologize if what I stated came off that way. As such, I have edited my OP to (hopefully) clear that up.

As for your suggesting that I go ahead and read it, as I did state... I fully intend to which is why I asked if someone can give me info as to where I can find a copy of all the parts I can download. I am not always able to be online while at a computer so I would love to be able to read it while not online. I would LOVE to read it, whether I need to follow it or not.

mishkan · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
I am relatively new to MJ and would be called a Messianic Gentile (although I publicly refer to myself as simply Messianic).

Welcome aboard!

mfaust said:
What I want is to be informed of the PRO-Talmud stance, more than just as commentary. Why do you hold that position and if/why I should?

I'm not sure what you mean by "more than just as commentary". That's all the Talmud is, commentary on the Torah.

I find the study of Talmud quite rewarding. It contains the theological discussions that served as the backdrop to many of the topics addressed in the Gospels. There are a number of clear allusions to Talmudic sayings and lines of reasoning in Paul's letters. Since I hold to a grammatical/historical approach to understanding the Bible, anything I can find that offers historical or theological information that is contemporary with Biblical writings is a Good Thing.

However, I do not recommend the Talmud for beginners. Right now, you need basic information about the Hebrew perspective on a variety of topics. You have about ten years of serious work ahead of you before you can say you have mastered the Messianic Perspective. One good book that consolidates much of what constitutes this new perspective is "Hidden Treasures: The First Century Jewish Way of Understanding the Scriptures", by Joseph Shulam. "Hidden Treasures" is a small paperback that is surprisingly dense in terms of the amount of material it covers.

The Talmud contains a saying by a sage named Rabbi ben Hei Hei. He used to say,

Five years is the age for the study of Scripture.

Ten, for the study of Mishnah.

Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot.

Fifteen, for the study of Talmud.

Eighteen, for marriage.

Twenty, to pursue [a livelihood].

Thirty, for strength,

Forty, for understanding.

Fifty, for counsel.

Sixty, for sagacity.

Seventy, for elderliness.

Eighty, for power.

Ninety, to stoop.

A hundred-year-old is as one who has died and passed away and has been negated from the world.

(Pirkei Avot 5:22)

You are, essentially, starting out as a child, so I would encourage you to give yourself a minimum of five to ten years before you worry about what is in the Talmud.

mfaust said:
If you suggest I read the Talmud, is there a place online that I can "download" all the sections of the Talmud in contrast to having to be online only to read it? Also are there any FREE sources online I could get this info as well in addition to any info I get here? My funds are limited to non-existant so, buying books in not an option.

As I said, I don't really recommend Talmud for beginners. You have plenty on your plate, already. But, if you are determined to look at some of it, you should start with tractate Pirkei Avot, which I quoted above. It is a small volume, containing only 6 chapters, and it reads much like the book of Proverbs. There are some wonderfully profound sayings and parables in it, and a number of passages that parallel Paul's writings.

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

mishkan said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "more than just as commentary". That's all the Talmud is, commentary on the Torah.

Hello and thank you for your very useful input! :clap:

My mention of "more than just a commentary" was referring to the fact that some people say the Talmud is something to be followed just as the Torah... unless I am grossly misunderstanding the position which could be possible (I was under the impression that it was considered the Oral Law. ) And on the other thread concerning this topic, someone had said, "Treat Talmud like a commentary" which gave me the "impression" that it could be taken as more than such. Therefore my understanding was that it was either as vital as Torah, just commentary, or to be rejected. Again, if my understanding is WAY off (which is by no means improbable), then I have no problem being corrected in my understanding.

That being said, IF it is only a commentary on the Torah, why do so many people equate it as the Oral Law? And if it is only commentary why do people react so strongly against it?

I ask these not to challenge, I ask these out of sincerely looking for clarification.

Again, thank you for your well done response.

jcpro · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
I apologize if what I said was poorly worded.

What I had intended was that, if you post a pro comment, I am not just going to jump on the bandwaggon and go all for it.

I am looking for information from a position that normally is spoken against. That way I can look into what is given, and then eventually make an informed decision. It would be foolish to start the thread and not eventually take what is given to make up my mind one way or the other and I apologize if what I stated came off that way. As such, I have edited my OP to (hopefully) clear that up.

As for your suggesting that I go ahead and read it, as I did state... I fully intend to which is why I asked if someone can give me info as to where I can find a copy of all the parts I can download. I am not always able to be online while at a computer so I would love to be able to read it while not online. I would LOVE to read it, whether I need to follow it or not.

Halakhah.com Babylonian Talmud Online in English However... No one should dive into it alone without a teacher. So, don't do it. But if you're serious, find a teacher first. Cheers.

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

jcpro said:
However... No one should dive into it alone without a teacher. So, don't do it. But if you're serious, find a teacher first. Cheers.

Thank you!!! This is precisely what I was looking for.
Not to challenge your opinion, but I have heard before the suggestion that one shouldn't go into it without a teacher. Why is that? Is it truly that complex? Are there teachers of the Talmud that are Messianic? And if not, would one still teach me? And finally should I go through to learn all the Talmud before deciding this whole ordeal one way or another?

Again, thank you for your time and input. :wave:

mishkan · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
Not to challenge your opinion, but I have heard before the suggestion that one shouldn't go into it without a teacher. Why is that? Is it truly that complex?

In a word, yes.

The discussions in the Talmud are extremely intricate and detailed. They employ terms which are unfamiliar to us, and reference location and events that are foreign to us today. They assume detailed knowledge of social customs that haven't existed for more than 1,000 years. Even a simple discussion on certifying matzah meal as unleavened can go on for pages, leaving one totally baffled about the point of the argument.

Add to that the fact that you are reading a translation (unless you are already fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic), and worse, there is NO formatting of the text--quotations are not set off with quote marks or indentations, one person's comment follows immediately after another. It can be extremely difficult just determining whether two quotations are supposed to agree or disagree with each other!

mfaust said:
Are there teachers of the Talmud that are Messianic?

Not too many. I know a couple Messianics who grew up Orthodox, and are somewhat familiar with the Talmud. I'm not sure they are up for taking on students, though.

mfaust said:
And if not, would one still teach me?

Depending on your location, you can sometimes find free classes and seminars where you can sit in on studies in a particular volume (tractate) of the Talmud. They don't usually ask why you're there, or what your background is.

mfaust said:
And finally should I go through to learn all the Talmud before deciding this whole ordeal one way or another?

As I said in my first post on this thread, I recommend Pirkei Avot for starters. If you want to sample some Talmud study, you can find a beginner's class at chabad.org. Search for "Talmud for Beginners - Introductory Text-based Talmud Study". (I can't post the link because I am too new to these forums, so I don't have permissions.)

mishkan · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
Hello and thank you for your very useful input!

You're most welcome.

mfaust said:
My mention of "more than just a commentary" was referring to the fact that some people say the Talmud is something to be followed just as the Torah... unless I am grossly misunderstanding the position which could be possible (I was under the impression that it was considered the Oral Law. ) And on the other thread concerning this topic, someone had said, "Treat Talmud like a commentary" which gave me the "impression" that it could be taken as more than such. Therefore my understanding was that it was either as vital as Torah, just commentary, or to be rejected.
...
IF it is only a commentary on the Torah, why do so many people equate it as the Oral Law?

Gotcha. Yes, the Talmud does claim to codify oral explanations that allegedly were given to Moshe to clarify the written commandments in the Torah. Most Jews have been taught to accept that definition from childhood. On the other hand, most Jews have never read any more of the Talmud than you have.

Among people who have actually opened the cover, and read the text, only the very Orthodox hold the view that the explanations are equivalent to Scripture. I can't imagine any objective thinking person viewing the Talmud as more than commentary. The very nature of the writing is to preserve lengthy passages of discussion and argument. It reads more like a courtroom transcript than a traditional commentary. Only in this case, there is no judge's verdict at the end, telling you which position won!

mfaust said:
And if it is only commentary why do people react so strongly against it?

Tradition. When people attack the Talmud, ask them how much of it they have actually read. In 99.9% of cases, the answer is, "Not a word--but I was told by a very reliable teacher that it is of the Devil!"

It's like asking an aborigine why he won't take an aspirin, and he answers, "Because my witchdoctor told me aspirin has bad spirits in it."

yonah_mishael · Jan 1, 2012

I would just disagree with the concept that the Talmud is a commentary on the Torah. It wasn't written as a commentary. Commentaries from those days were called psharim (singlar: pesher), and they gave elucidation on the meaning of texts, especially interpreted in light of the situation of the readers at the time. The midrash is much closer to the idea of pesher, especially texts such as Midrash Rabba and Midrash Tanchuma, which follow the order of the sidras as found in the Torah.

The Talmud is not a commentary on the Torah, though it certainly includes quotes from the Torah and from the rest of the Tanach. It is written as an elucidation not on the biblical text (which it uses as support for its arguments) but on Jewish life. The Talmud is a commentary on Judaism and how to understand the world through Judaism. It contains a lot of information that is relevant only within a given culture or worldview, so it disagrees at times with how we see the world through modern eyes - which is completely acceptable and to be expected of any book written in previous generations (even the Bible, in fact).

The kernel of the Talmud is the Mishnah, the oral law handed down by the Pharisees (Prushim) and those who followed them. The Mishnah set out to include the decisions of the major rabbis regarding six areas of Jewish law and custom. Each of these general topics is called a seder "order" (plural: sdarim), and it touches on many topics that are somehow related to the general order.

There are two talmuds (talmudim) - one from the Diaspora, called the "Babylonian Talmud"; and one from the Holy Land, called the "Palestinian (or, Jerusalem) Talmud". The most important of the two according to tradition is the Babylonian. The Talmud (Gmara) is a commentary on the Mishnah. Not all sections of the Mishnah contain a corresponding section of Gmara (such as Pirkei Avot, mentioned above), but all Gmara is written as a commentary on the Mishnah, even if it leads into discussions that are either only tangentially related to the Mishnah text or even not related at all.

So, what is the value of the Talmud to a Messianic Jew? For that question, you'd have to ask them. How can you personally benefit from reading the Talmud? First, take it with a grain of salt. There are a myriad of opinions expressed in the Talmud, and not all of them are "gospel truth", shall we say. Second, read it as a commentary of Judaism from the past. Its value for showing us how Judaism was in the early- and mid-First Millennium is incomprehensible. So, take it as a description of the past and learn from it. Read its social comments from the perspective of a historian, not a social critic. There are things written there that must be understood from within the culture, and don't forget that translation also alters some things - and that the Talmud is written in such a way as to make sense to the initiated while confounding those who are not yeshiva students.

Good luck in your reading, and don't forget to turn to people who know the Talmud when you have questions. Do not seek out anti-Talmud websites, because they often twist and distort what is written and make Jews into pedophiles, rapists, murderers and every other foul thing imaginable.

Regards,
YM

yonah_mishael · Jan 1, 2012

mishkan said:
Tradition. When people attack the Talmud, ask them how much of it they have actually read. In 99.9% of cases, the answer is, "Not a word--but I was told by a very reliable teacher that it is of the Devil!"

ContraMundum · Jan 1, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
I would just disagree with the concept that the Talmud is a commentary on the Torah. It wasn't written as a commentary. Commentaries from those days were called psharim (singlar: pesher), and they gave elucidation on the meaning of texts, especially interpreted in light of the situation of the readers at the time. The midrash is much closer to the idea of pesher, especially texts such as Midrash Rabba and Midrash Tanchuma, which follow the order of the sidras as found in the Torah.

The Talmud is not a commentary on the Torah, though it certainly includes quotes from the Torah and from the rest of the Tanach. It is written as an elucidation not on the biblical text (which it uses as support for its arguments) but on Jewish life. The Talmud is a commentary on Judaism and how to understand the world through Judaism. It contains a lot of information that is relevant only within a given culture or worldview, so it disagrees at times with how we see the world through modern eyes - which is completely acceptable and to be expected of any book written in previous generations (even the Bible, in fact).

The kernel of the Talmud is the Mishnah, the oral law handed down by the Pharisees (Prushim) and those who followed them. The Mishnah set out to include the decisions of the major rabbis regarding six areas of Jewish law and custom. Each of these general topics is called a seder "order" (plural: sdarim), and it touches on many topics that are somehow related to the general order.

There are two talmuds (talmudim) - one from the Diaspora, called the "Babylonian Talmud"; and one from the Holy Land, called the "Palestinian (or, Jerusalem) Talmud". The most important of the two according to tradition is the Babylonian. The Talmud (Gmara) is a commentary on the Mishnah. Not all sections of the Mishnah contain a corresponding section of Gmara (such as Pirkei Avot, mentioned above), but all Gmara is written as a commentary on the Mishnah, even if it leads into discussions that are either only tangentially related to the Mishnah text or even not related at all.

So, what is the value of the Talmud to a Messianic Jew? For that question, you'd have to ask them. How can you personally benefit from reading the Talmud? First, take it with a grain of salt. There are a myriad of opinions expressed in the Talmud, and not all of them are "gospel truth", shall we say. Second, read it as a commentary of Judaism from the past. Its value for showing us how Judaism was in the early- and mid-First Millennium is incomprehensible. So, take it as a description of the past and learn from it. Read its social comments from the perspective of a historian, not a social critic. There are things written there that must be understood from within the culture, and don't forget that translation also alters some things - and that the Talmud is written in such a way as to make sense to the initiated while confounding those who are not yeshiva students.

Good luck in your reading, and don't forget to turn to people who know the Talmud when you have questions. Do not seek out anti-Talmud websites, because they often twist and distort what is written and make Jews into pedophiles, rapists, murderers and every other foul thing imaginable.

Regards,
YM

I agree, as usual, with Yonah, but would add that there are distinctive paradigms that must be understood, digested and that should be part of one's thinking before the Talmud can really be approached with any chance of obtaining clarity. This is why you need a teacher.

The real issue that one should consider is whether or not, with all the wonderful teaching out there, Talmudic studies are a beneficial or essential part of being a disciple in whatever one's religion might happen to be. In the hierarchy of things that should be read, one should find an honest place in that order for it. To be honest, for anyone who seeks to be a disciple of the Messiah, it should not be that much of a priority. Although I may sound hypocritical on that, as I read it almost daily in tandem with other things, that I think is the advice I would give a disciple of Yeshua.

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

WOW. This thread is going exactly as I was hoping. Thank you all for such wonderful information!

What I am gathering from all this, is that using the aid of a teacher, when reading the Talmud, I should "read it as a commentary of Judaism from the past" as yonah_mishael stated. And be that as it may, I should put it on "the back-burner" so-to-speak. As Mishkan stated, I have plenty on my plate already.

Would that be a fair assessment? And if so, would you also say that the whole issue of Talmud use among Messianic Believers in general is relatively silly? Not the Talmud itself mind you, but any arguments between individuals on whether or not to use it. Not speaking against it there, but for those who do speak badly against it... would some good advice be simply to just not worry about it?

Again, thank you all.

ChavaK · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
And if so, would you also say that the whole issue of Talmud use among Messianic Believers in general is relatively silly? Not the Talmud itself mind you, but any arguments between individuals on whether or not to use it. Not speaking against it there, but for those who do speak badly against it... would some good advice be simply to just not worry about it?
Again, thank you all.

I agree with the others here that the Talmud is not something studied alone. One needs to find an experienced teacher. I would not rely on someone who is "somewhat" experienced in the Talmud. The problem however is that rabbis generally don't teach Talmud to non-Jews, AFAIK. In a large class they may not care, but one on one it isn't likely.
The text is complex, and the style of debating/discussion is unique.
It simply requires a teacher.

The issue of the Talmud and Messianics is interesting. While I don't think the Talmud should be studied by Messianics, many of the things Messianics do are straight from the Talmud/rabbinical law. So it's kind of a catch 22-Messianics as a whole (someone please correct me if I am wrong) consider the Talmud to be man made law and not handed down at Sinai along with the written Torah. Yet they rely upon it for much of their observances. So it's kind of a we don't accept it but we follow parts
of it anyway...confusing.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

mfaust · Jan 1, 2012

ChavaK said:
Yet they rely upon it for much of their observances. So it's kind of a we don't accept it but we follow parts
of it anyway...confusing.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Not disagreeing on this point, as I am obviously still learning. However what parts of the Talmud do Messianics (the ones you were referring to) follow?

I have heard some say that we are to follow all the Torah, some that much of it no longer applies or at least not to Gentiles anyhow, and I have heard some say that all that applies is the Sabbath, keeping Kosher, the Feast days, The 10 Commandments and tzit-tzit (sp?). There are so many varying views but I hadn't seen Talmud observance in the way you mention. Mind you, I am not saying you are wrong, hence why I am asking what you are referring to.

Anyhow, thank you for responding to me and I look forward to further conversations with you in the future. :wave:

anisavta · Jan 1, 2012

I add my agreement to the others about studying the Talmud. It's not just another reference book that can be purused. Men (and women) have spent years studying and still know they have just scratched the surface. As a Gentile Messianic, my, for what it's worth opinion, would be to study Moses and Messiah's teachings. Then when you're well grounded and proficient then move on to Talmud.

rsduncan · Jan 1, 2012

mfaust said:
Greetings to all!

I know there is already a thread open concerning the Talmud, but being that it is MJ Only and this thread is intended to ultimately serve a different purpose, I make no apologies for starting it.

I initially had asked concerning this in a PM, but I figured I should get as many viewpoints or references as possible.

I am relatively new to MJ and would be called a Messianic Gentile (although I publicly refer to myself as simply Messianic.) Now while here and on other Messianic sites, there are many who have differing opinions as to the necessity/value of the Talmud for Messianics. I am NOT looking for debate on this issue. What I want is to be informed of the PRO-Talmud stance, more than just as commentary. Why do you hold that position and if/why I should?

If you suggest I read the Talmud, is there a place online that I can "download" all the sections of the Talmud in contrast to having to be online only to read it? Also are there any FREE sources online I could get this info as well in addition to any info I get here? My funds are limited to non-existant so, buying books in not an option.

I personally do not have a position on this matter as I am ignorant concerning the Talmud, I have not read it but I intend to read it no matter what position I eventually hold and therefore refuse to believe one way or another at the time being. And seeing that I do not want this to be a debate thread, I respectfully ask that only people who support or at least can give positive input regarding the Talmud, comment here. Once again, I am not saying I myself am pro-Talmud, I am neutral on the subject. PLEASE, if you are against the Talmud and you feel you must respond here, I ask that you do not give reason upon reason you are against it. I have heard it all and am on the fence regarding the subject.

Thank you kindly for your time in advance!

Halakhah.com Babylonian Talmud Online in English

...

simchat_torah · Jan 1, 2012

I'm impressed by the level of respect, knowledge, and insightfulness of this thread so far

Most Messianics despise the Talmud, though they've never read it (See the other Talmud Thread). Falsely, many believe the Talmud speaks ill of the Christian Jesus. This is not so, the Talmud never even mentions the Christian messiah.

But what is most intriguing to me is that while these Messianics despise the Talmud, they utilize practices that are only detailed in the Talmud and are not mentioned in the Torah (wearing a Kippah, lighting Sabbath candles, etc). Very strange to me.

mfaust · Jan 2, 2012

simchat_torah said:
I'm impressed by the level of respect, knowledge, and insightfulness of this thread so far

Hiya! thank you for your kind words.

This is EXACTLY what I was hoping for and am so grateful for this as well.

Now I can confidently say with all the wonderful information I have received I positively can come to a conclusion about this subject for me, and hopefully other Messianic Gentiles who come here wondering the same thing as I.

I do find the Talmud fascinating, and as I mentioned in my OP, I have heard ALLOT of negative things concerning the Talmud. I won't lie, I almost believed all of it. But I decided that would be foolish without looking into it, and getting the facts from "the horses mouth" so-to-speak. I am glad I did.

Now keeping in mind the strong suggestion to not go through the Talmud without a teacher (with the POSSIBLE exception of the Pirkei Avot suggested by mishkan) I did find a friend who has the Talmud who will loan them to me which I can use... if needed. Otherwise, I will wait for a teacher to be more informed.

That being said, do I really need to be more informed? Without casting stones at the Talmud and condemning it like some people do (and I am not necessarily referring to anyone at this forum), I can honestly say no based on others advice from on this thread and via PM's.

I have many other things to focus on as a Messianic Believer and I am happy with keeping it that way. If I ever get the opportunity to study the Talmud with a teacher... I "may" take the opportunity but even so, I no longer see a need.

As I feel I have a mild understanding of the purpose of the Talmud for today for someone in my position, I can call this discussion done for the most part, and I really TRULY thank everyone who participated and gave very valuable insights. These are not just empty words. :clap:

Thank you all. :pray:

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