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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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So you actually weren't physically disciplined - the discipline was the threat to remove something that you loved. That's exactly my point. There are many, many other ways in which to discipline a child than hitting it.

When we had problems with our middle son this year, some people would have said that a good spanking was due. However, we removed all of his privileges, and told him that he would not be taking driver's ed until we had seen an improvement in his behavior. He was devastated at the time, but six months later he is mid-way through driver's ed because his behavior did improve because he knew it was worth his while to improve. When you have six months to think over something like that, and to consider your behavior and know how to make a difference, generally it doesn't go back to being as bad as before.

That has been my finding in parenting. When our boys have misbehaved, we have sent them up to their rooms - no games, no phones, no distractions - and told them to think it over and come back and tell us what they did, and how they could improve their behavior, and make a genuine apology. (There would also be a punishment attached like a grounding for that evening, depending on severity of behavior.) This kid (middle boy) has always been the most stubborn and the most inclined to point the finger at others, rather than looking inward, so it is very good discipline for him to consider his behavior and he has every time come back with a genuine apology, and admission that he did x and he did it because he was angry (or whatever) and he could have done y instead.

You see, if we had hit him, what would he have learned? That when someone messes up, you hit them. That's it. He would have been only angrier and angrier and most likely would have hung onto the beliefs he had when he indulged in his behavior. But by sending him away for reflection, he had to look into his beliefs and consider whether they were correct. Sure, he could just come back and say "yeah, I thought it over, I was wrong, you were right (meanwhile thinking 'whatever') but I know this kid, and his apologies were always genuine, and his insight was also genuine. So, I'm glad we have done things this way.

In essence, God doesn't punish us. There are consequences. Trust me, I'm almost 50 and I know all about consequences. But his yoke is light. At the end of the consequence is mercy and forgiveness, and his staff and his rod comfort me, they don't belabor me, breaking my spirit. A broken and contrite heart is a different thing to a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart is a good thing - a broken spirit is not.

You don't have to agree with me. That's fine. I just know that the upbringing of our boys has produced one very fine young man who is now 19, and the other boys are heading in the same direction, so 3 out of 3 is a pretty good result, right?

Yes, I was physically spanked as a child. Up until I was probably 10 or so. Where did I ever say I wasn't spanked? Spanking was much more effective and gracious for me than the twisted non-physical ways my parents disciplined us in our teens.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. All my experiences are the opposite of yours and have taught me the opposite. I don't feel like you are willing to even acknowledge the potential benefits spankings would have on a particular child.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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I'm so tired of being told that everyone who doesn't spank views it as child abuse. See, that's MY posts being glossed over. I have been told that I want to ban spanking, that I verbally abuse my children - based upon absolutely nothing, btw, and that I think that all spanking is abuse. So you want to talk about glossed over?

But as to whether it should be discussed further, that's up to the OP. If she wants to close the thread, she can.

That post was addressing dreamer who stated that she wouldn't mind at all if spanking was made illegal.

Also, no one ever said you verbally abuse your children. I made a point because you were saying "rod of violence" so often in reference to a spanking which is an implication that those who spank are using violence against their children. I made a point of saying "words of violence" directed at nobody in particular to turn your point around onto you to see how those kinds of implications make you feel. The implication that you verbally abuse your kids by using non-physical discipline didn't make you feel so good, did it? So my point was made. How do you like it when it is implied that your methods of discipline are violent? If you don't like it, then don't imply that people on here who spank are using a "rod of violence" because it is downright insulting. Do to others as you would have them do to you, basically.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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I also thinking spanking is wrong. You are teaching your child to hit--period. Better be safe than sorry...even if it doesnt affect everyone the same, why chance it? There are more loving, gentler ways of discipline.

Using hyperbole, I will turn your absolute statement around on you so that maybe you will see that absolute statements regarding a tool of discipline are just plain silly. As an FYI, I don't actually believe the statement I am going to make. I believe that all discipline tools, including spankings, should be tailor made to each particular child to find what works.

"I also think the taking away of privileges as discipline is wrong. You are teaching your kids to oppressively manipulate other people to get what they want--period. Better be safe than sorry...even if it doesn't affect everyone the same, why chance it? There are more loving, gentler ways of discipline than pretending that you're a totalitarian dictator."

My point is that ANY form of discipline can be wrong if applied and carried out in a sinful manner.
 
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ke1985

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Using hyperbole, I will turn your absolute statement around on you so that maybe you will see that absolute statements regarding a tool of discipline are just plain silly. As an FYI, I don't actually believe the statement I am going to make. I believe that all discipline tools, including spankings, should be tailor made to each particular child to find what works.

"I also think the taking away of privileges as discipline is wrong. You are teaching your kids to oppressively manipulate other people to get what they want--period. Better be safe than sorry...even if it doesn't affect everyone the same, why chance it? There are more loving, gentler ways of discipline than pretending that you're a totalitarian dictator."

My point is that ANY form of discipline can be wrong if applied and carried out in a sinful manner.

Difference is spanking is geared all around the one fact: children cannot defend themselves. You can use any other method until the child is 18. But not spanking. That is because a teen wouldnt tolerate it. It isnt suitable then. Why would it be suitable at all? :confused:
 
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Luther073082

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Yes, I was physically spanked as a child. Up until I was probably 10 or so. Where did I ever say I wasn't spanked? Spanking was much more effective and gracious for me than the twisted non-physical ways my parents disciplined us in our teens.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. All my experiences are the opposite of yours and have taught me the opposite. I don't feel like you are willing to even acknowledge the potential benefits spankings would have on a particular child.

My parents spanked me well into my teens. When their hand stopped hurting they just got a wooden board and used that.

Worked out with me.

***Now I will not venture to judge or try to determine how well other forms of dicipline would have worked at that time. I don't know. But I can tell you by comparison to other teens. . . I didn't get in a lot of trouble.***

Although the criticism could be made that I'm a rule follower to a fault in my adult life. I am uncomfortable entering into the door labeled exit at Wal-Mart. And from child hood being drilled to "eat my burger before my fries, means that I always do the same thing now as an adult." I will not pick up one single fry until I've ate my burger.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Difference is spanking is geared all around the one fact: children cannot defend themselves. You can use any other method until the child is 18. But not spanking. That is because a teen wouldnt tolerate it. It isnt suitable then. Why would it be suitable at all? :confused:

Can children defend themselves from privileges being taken away? No...they can't. So how is it different than a spanking? Any form of discipline can't really be "defended" against when the parent is in absolute control of the child's money, shelter, food, clothing, school, house, transportation, etc, etc. A parent is essentially in control of everything for their child until the early teens where control is gradually placed in the child's care. So the theory that a child can "defend" himself from those non-physical methods of discipline but can't "defend" himself from spankings is just ludicrous. A child can't "defend" themselves from any form of discipline if the parent is actually in the parental role.

Teens aren't normally spanked not because they won't tolerate it, but because spanking is normally not an effective means of discipline for a teen. Teens are wayyyy beyond modifying their behavior because of a spanking. I was spanked a few times in my teens. I laughed. It didn't work and was just silly. That's when the spanking stopped. Actually, I remember my mom breaking a wooden spoon on my sister's butt when we were both getting spanked. We literally all busted out laughing. Even my mom, who was trying to keep a stern face, cracked a smile and started laughing. It was pretty funny. I think that is the last time they used a spanking for discipline.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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My parents spanked me well into my teens. When their hand stopped hurting they just got a wooden board and used that.

Worked out with me.

***Now I will not venture to judge or try to determine how well other forms of dicipline would have worked at that time. I don't know. But I can tell you by comparison to other teens. . . I didn't get in a lot of trouble.***

Although the criticism could be made that I'm a rule follower to a fault in my adult life. I am uncomfortable entering into the door labeled exit at Wal-Mart. And from child hood being drilled to "eat my burger before my fries, means that I always do the same thing now as an adult." I will not pick up one single fry until I've ate my burger.

I should have probably said that I was effectively spanked until I was about 10. My parents definitely spanked me and my siblings past 10 well into early teens like yourself but it was not an effective form of discipline.
 
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ke1985

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Can children defend themselves from privileges being taken away? No...they can't. So how is it different than a spanking? Any form of discipline can't really be "defended" against when the parent is in absolute control of the child's money, shelter, food, clothing, school, house, transportation, etc, etc. A parent is essentially in control of everything for their child until the early teens where control is gradually placed in the child's care. So the theory that a child can "defend" himself from those non-physical methods of discipline but can't "defend" himself from spankings is just ludicrous. A child can't "defend" themselves from any form of discipline if the parent is actually in the parental role.

Teens aren't normally spanked not because they won't tolerate it, but because spanking is normally not an effective means of discipline for a teen. Teens are wayyyy beyond modifying their behavior because of a spanking. I was spanked a few times in my teens. I laughed. It didn't work and was just silly. That's when the spanking stopped. Actually, I remember my mom breaking a wooden spoon on my sister's butt when we were both getting spanked. We literally all busted out laughing. Even my mom, who was trying to keep a stern face, cracked a smile and started laughing. It was pretty funny. I think that is the last time they used a spanking for discipline.

Defend means to "to drive danger or attack away from." Discipline, other than spanking, is not undermined by this definition. Spanking is. Hitting a child that induces pain is an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety (even if you dont agree). Other forms of discipline is not geared around the possible humiliation and demeaning act of spanking. Not all discipline has to include taking away privileges. There are many more methods, including this book, outlines many GREAT ways of disciplining without distress: Amazon.com: Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring, responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery (9780978050900): Judy Arnall: Books

Educate yourself! :cool:
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Defend means to "to drive danger or attack away from." Discipline, other than spanking, is not undermined by this definition. Spanking is. Hitting a child that induces pain is an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety (even if you dont agree). Other forms of discipline is not geared around the possible humiliation and demeaning act of spanking. Not all discipline has to include taking away privileges. There are many more methods, including this book, outlines many GREAT ways of disciplining without distress: Amazon.com: Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring, responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery (9780978050900): Judy Arnall: Books

Educate yourself! :cool:

I completely disagree that discipline in the form of a spanking is "an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety". I think that statement there is a load of hogwash.

From reading some info on that book, I don't see anything wrong with its advice. From one of the reviewers: "Things I love about the book - it's focus on: building a loving relationship, advocating the child's independent self-evaluation/correction of undesirable behavior, and instilling confidence in me to discipline my child so he learns the true lesson in a situation." Those three things I have been strongly advocating this whole time. In fact, I don't think a parent can properly discipline their kids unless those three are in place. Having and continually building a loving relationship is key in a parent child relationship; advocating a child's independent self-evaluation/correction of undesirable behavior is the whole point of discipline in the first place! You as a parent will not be with your child their whole life so the whole point of discipline is to show them the correct path so they will take that path when you are no longer there in a parental role for them; and instilling confidence in the parent that proper discipline is one of the most loving things you can do for your child is also key.

So I'm not sure why a book like that would be a rebuttal to what I've been saying because I agree with what it's saying. The only thing I wouldn't agree on is that spankings are always "an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety".
 
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Avniel

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That post was addressing dreamer who stated that she wouldn't mind at all if spanking was made illegal.

Also, no one ever said you verbally abuse your children. I made a point because you were saying "rod of violence" so often in reference to a spanking which is an implication that those who spank are using violence against their children. I made a point of saying "words of violence" directed at nobody in particular to turn your point around onto you to see how those kinds of implications make you feel. The implication that you verbally abuse your kids by using non-physical discipline didn't make you feel so good, did it? So my point was made. How do you like it when it is implied that your methods of discipline are violent? If you don't like it, then don't imply that people on here who spank are using a "rod of violence" because it is downright insulting. Do to others as you would have them do to you, basically.

So you dont think spanking is violence? Any time you strike a person its violent.
 
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Avniel

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My parents spanked me well into my teens. When their hand stopped hurting they just got a wooden board and used that.

Worked out with me.

***Now I will not venture to judge or try to determine how well other forms of dicipline would have worked at that time. I don't know. But I can tell you by comparison to other teens. . . I didn't get in a lot of trouble.***

Although the criticism could be made that I'm a rule follower to a fault in my adult life. I am uncomfortable entering into the door labeled exit at Wal-Mart. And from child hood being drilled to "eat my burger before my fries, means that I always do the same thing now as an adult." I will not pick up one single fry until I've ate my burger.

But I hope you understand that thiss is not normal behavior it is abnormal behavior. I would say that being hit with the board damanged your cognative and your post just further proves my point.
 
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ke1985

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I completely disagree that discipline in the form of a spanking is "an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety". I think that statement there is a load of hogwash.

From reading some info on that book, I don't see anything wrong with its advice. From one of the reviewers: "Things I love about the book - it's focus on: building a loving relationship, advocating the child's independent self-evaluation/correction of undesirable behavior, and instilling confidence in me to discipline my child so he learns the true lesson in a situation." Those three things I have been strongly advocating this whole time. In fact, I don't think a parent can properly discipline their kids unless those three are in place. Having and continually building a loving relationship is key in a parent child relationship; advocating a child's independent self-evaluation/correction of undesirable behavior is the whole point of discipline in the first place! You as a parent will not be with your child their whole life so the whole point of discipline is to show them the correct path so they will take that path when you are no longer there in a parental role for them; and instilling confidence in the parent that proper discipline is one of the most loving things you can do for your child is also key.

So I'm not sure why a book like that would be a rebuttal to what I've been saying because I agree with what it's saying. The only thing I wouldn't agree on is that spankings are always "an attack on a child's self image and trust/safety".

Well the book is against spanking so I thought it would be a logical rebuttal. We will agree to disagree. Thats all we can do. Better safe than sorry, though. Spanking doesnt affect everyone the same way but why risk it?
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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So you dont think spanking is violence? Any time you strike a person its violent.

So if I playfully spank my wife's butt is that violent?

Honestly, applying absolutes to the word spanking like "spankings are always violent" is illogical. Again, spankings can be completely non violent.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Well the book is against spanking so I thought it would be a logical rebuttal. We will agree to disagree. Thats all we can do. Better safe than sorry, though. Spanking doesnt affect everyone the same way but why risk it?

Everything in life is a risk. In fact, children are a huge risk. Every single form of discipline is also a risk. The way to reduce the risk is to know your child. Just like that book you posted which encouraged the fostering of a loving parent child relationship. Starting with a loving parent child relationship and knowing your child is key to reducing the risk you speak of when it comes to all forms of discipline. The risk of NOT disciplining far outweighs the risk of discipline. The risk of not disciplining is a wayward child who does not know right from wrong.

Do everything with a sound mind and with proper judgement, including discipline. If a parent follows that principle through, the chances that they will damage their child with discipline no matter what the form are slim to none. If the parent is impulsive, angers easily, and lacks self control, it doesn't matter what forms of discipline the parents use, the child will be negatively affected or even permanently scarred by the misapplied discipline.

The only part I would disagree with about the book is if it anywhere states that spanking is abusive or wrong all the time. I can filter out what I disagree with without filtering out the good things the book says. From reading some of the reviews, it looks like the book has a lot of good things to say.
 
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Avniel

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So if I playfully spank my wife's butt is that violent?

Honestly, applying absolutes to the word spanking like "spankings are always violent" is illogical. Again, spankings can be completely non violent.

How is hitting someone non violent?

I am making the asumption that when a child is spanked no one is playing.

A question that fits the conversation if my wife calls me out of her name and as a means to stop her I slap her on the butt would I be wrong?
 
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JaneFW

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So if I playfully spank my wife's butt is that violent?

Honestly, applying absolutes to the word spanking like "spankings are always violent" is illogical. Again, spankings can be completely non violent.
Is your wife in agreement that spanking her butt is okay?

Spanking is not play.
 
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JaneFW

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Everything in life is a risk. In fact, children are a huge risk. Every single form of discipline is also a risk. The way to reduce the risk is to know your child. Just like that book you posted which encouraged the fostering of a loving parent child relationship. Starting with a loving parent child relationship and knowing your child is key to reducing the risk you speak of when it comes to all forms of discipline. The risk of NOT disciplining far outweighs the risk of discipline. The risk of not disciplining is a wayward child who does not know right from wrong.
Why do you continue to suggest that people who do not spank are not disciplining their child/ren? I very carefully walked through one scenario with a child that showed exactly how he was disciplined - without spanking. It's disrespectful to continue to castigate non-spankers as non-discipliners (yeah I just invented that word.) NOBODY has said not to discipline your child. Not one person. It's a straw man argument.

Oh, and you won't "know" your child until they are a few years old. That's quite late to decide what kind of person they are and how you will discipline them. A smart person makes that choice, in discussion with their spouse, before the baby is born. That's what Avniel did - and he was very smart to do that.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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How is hitting someone non violent?

I am making the assumption that when a child is spanked no one is playing.

Spanking a child is not violent. The definition of violent is as follows:

1. marked or caused by great physical force or violence "a violent stab"

A spanking is not marked or caused by great physical force. A spanking is not even close to being the greatest physical force a parent can exert. If anything, it's probably done at like a 5-15% force with a deliberately non-injuring implement like a spoon, flexible spatula or open palm. A spanking is a tool for discipline. It is marked primarily as discipline. A spanking is a smack on the butt meant to correctively discipline. There's nothing "greatly physical" about it. If anything it's on the low end of minorly physical. Violent would be the punches on MMA fighting. Their punches are marked by "great physical force" meant to cause bodily injury (in their case a knock out which is basically brain damage).

2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.

Not applicable to spankings as this is emotional force. Although this definition is a good point because it demonstrates my previous points that ANY kind of discipline whether physical or non-physical can be violent and abusive if improperly administered.


3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall.

A spanking is also not marked by intensity. Proper discipline (which can include spankings) should be administered calmly with self control. There should be clear cut boundaries and consequences for violating said boundaries. It's anything but intense. It rather calm, collected, and predictable.


4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.

Properly using spankings as effective discipline is never unexpected. It is predictable from a mile away. If you do x, y will occur. There's no guesswork involved. Properly administered discipline is as predictable for the child as the sun setting.


5.
Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent. "a violent interpretation of the text."


Not applicable to spankings per se except for this: You have a violent interpretation of the word violent in your application to discipline in the form of spankings.

So basically, no, spankings are not at all violent when properly administered. No properly administered discipline is violent. Improperly administered discipline, however, no matter what form it comes in, can by physically, emotionally, or verbally violent.



A question that fits the conversation if my wife calls me out of her name and as a means to stop her I slap her on the butt would I be wrong?

Yes, you would be wrong because you are not your wife's parent and she is an adult. It is not your job to correctively discipline your wife. The Bible does admonish parents, however, to correctively discipline their children. For adults the Bible has a whole different set of instructions on how to curb sinful behavior.
 
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