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I really appreciate your question .
I am interested in how this question will be answered .
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I really appreciate your question .
I am interested in how this question will be answered .
PaladinValer
Traditional Orthodox Anglican
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Leave to a Lutheran to have excellent Baptismal theology!
Then you haven't become a habitable dwelling sight for Him.
I believe I can fly...**jumps off a ten-story building**
**SPLAT**
Belief isn't enough.
Then why are you going around in circles? CryptoLutheran gave you the historic and orthodox answer.
Um, look up the definition of manifestation. You've contradicted yourself.
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S
Sieben
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people in the bible knew when they received the spirit
"DId you receive the spirit when you believed?"
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Sieben
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Because I didn't get baptized?
acts 10:43-47
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
its why it i believe being water baptized doesn't mean you have the spirit, cause scripture shows people getting the spirit by faith.. so baptism does not mean you are habitable by him.. but by belief... but do people blindly believe they received him without receiving?
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I know I received the Holy Spirit,
how i know, is that when i am faced with the other entities in the multiverse, there is no power greater, and what's more, the manner in which the Holy Spirit removes the other powers is similar to a peaceful dissolving of the powers as if they were not even close to as real as the Holy Spirit . that's how i know the spirit i received is the Holy Spirit, many speak of theirs but in the spiritual realm all that matters is whether your words are backed up with real spiritual power . and best to not speak at all . of which . perhaps, *chuckle* i have said too much .
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PaladinValer
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Correct.
That passage has to do with faith, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, not salvation.
Your objection therefore doesn't make sense, since in orthodoxy, faith is a prerequisite for salvation, not salvation itself. Holy Baptism is our "yes" to God's gift of faith: it is we saying "yes, I will live by faith."
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Many people ask themselves this question i think. The holy Spirit is the proof of His own existence, the closer we get to God the more we notice His presence. Keep your faith and you'll see for yourself. Draw close to God and He will draw close to you.
Jesus had something to say about the holy Spirit in Luke 11
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you
Jesus had something to say about the holy Spirit in Luke 11
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you
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Tavita
beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
You have misunderstood me like another poster did.
Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
Belief here is not enough?
I wasn't talking about flying :o, I was pointing out that if you believe you are filled with the Spirit then you are. OF COURSE, one must ask first, maybe I assumed that the OP would realize this, and that was my mistake.
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Sieben
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But it really says they got the remission of sins and the holy spirit after hearing pauls words.. to the point they got it while he was still speaking. and this was before any water baptism was initiated as they were preaching to gentiles, that is why he brought up "who can forbid these from being baptized with water?"
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PaladinValer
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but it also says those who don't believe will be damned .
it does not say those who don't get baptized will be damned
so this must be speaking of the baptism Jesus does .
the baptism of the Holy Spirit .
it does not say those who don't get baptized will be damned
so this must be speaking of the baptism Jesus does .
the baptism of the Holy Spirit .
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Baptism is good and it should be done. But if a man were on a deserted island and found the bible and accepted Jesus as lord and savior after reading it, but had no one to baptize him in water, would God not save him? I think God would save him from eternal damnation even though he doesn't get baptized.
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PaladinValer
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No. Reread your own Scriptural quotation in context. The entire chapter is about the inclusion of non-Hebrews into God's Holy Church. A technically Pagan man, a centurian named Cornelius, who despite the increasingly disfavorable view of his own Roman government towards Christians treats them with kindness and generosity. God knows that He can use this man's faith as a means of expanding His Church and thus sends an angel to tell him to seek St. Peter because he has found favor with God. The purpose is for him to hear the fullness of the Gospel and to enter God's Kingdom.
God then sends visions to St. Peter, showing him food which is unclean according to the literal Law. He tells him to eat, and when St. Peter politely refused, God told him that they were truly clean. St. Peter was puzzled, for he didn't still quite get the idea about the full and complete inclusion of non-Hebrews. At that time, Cornelius' servants arrived, looking for St. Peter.
When the men arrived, because they were clearly Romans, St. Peter was still hidden. However, God told St. Peter that the men were there for a good and noble reason, so he unhid and the household where he was staying allowed them in with hospitality to boot. They must have explained the situation, because the next day, St. Peter and a small assembly of local Christians left for Cornelius' in Caesarea from Joppa.
Upon seeing the reaction from Cornelius, St. Peter began to understand what God told him in the visions He sent him. The Saint asked the centurion his story and was amazed about the man's faith, even though he was not only a Gentile, but a Roman citizen and a ranking soldier as well.
So St. Peter preached to Cornelius and those Gentiles with him about the Gospel. God the Holy Spirit inspired the men with the gift of faith, not salvation, so that they would be able to accept the Message. We know this to be correct because it occurred while St. Peter was preaching, not after!! If it were after, you'd have a case, but this was during. Therefore, salvation wasn't the gift, but faith; faith is required to believe.
They then began to exhibit signs that they truly had valid and real faith. St. Peter realized that Holy Baptism couldn't be withheld, for that would be a rejection of what God had done in those people but also it would be a rejection of those who accepted the call to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Therefore, they were given baptism and therefore became true children of God and fellow co-inheritors with Christ with them.
There is no salvation until the Holy Baptisms of these people, when they ceased to be Gentiles and became Christians.
That is why the Bible says "believe and be baptized." And qualifies both, not just picking on; that would be or.
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PaladinValer
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PaladinValer
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Belief in the way of faith, is a requirement of Holy Baptism. If you don't have faith, you cannot be validly baptized.
Therefore, it is directly implied that if you don't believe, you haven't been baptized, for those with true faith will have a desire to be baptized. If not, it isn't faith.
Straw Man. Learn what Holy Baptism is before you create your own ideas of what you think it is.
The orthodox doctrine on Holy Baptism is the following:
[FONT="]1. [/FONT][FONT="]You are cleansed of original sin. In other words, original sin is washed clean away.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2. [/FONT][FONT="]You are made a worthy place for God the Holy Spirit to dwell and live.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3. [/FONT][FONT="]You receive God the Holy Spirit to dwell and live with you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]4. [/FONT][FONT="]You are forgiven all actual sins up to that point in your life.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5. [/FONT][FONT="]You are made an adopted son (or daughter) of God; a co-inheritor with Jesus Christ, in Jesus Christ, for the Kingdom of Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6. [/FONT][FONT="]You are made a full member of Gods One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and thereby able to receive all other sacraments.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7. [/FONT][FONT="]You are saying yes to Gods Call to you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8. [/FONT][FONT="]You are made a New Creation.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9. [/FONT][FONT="]You soul is regenerated, or healed, and the process for its complete healing is begun.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10. [/FONT][FONT="]You begin a relationship with God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11. [/FONT][FONT="]You accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior[/FONT]
A sacrament is defined as an outward, visible sign of an inward, spiritual grace. The outward visible sign is water and the rite performed by the ordained cleric (or, in an emergency, anyone). The inward and spiritual grace is what happens above and is done by God. In other words, God works through the cleric or layperson, just as God worked through the prophets and the Old Testament priests. The ritual is merely the outward and visible sign of what God Himself is doing.
If you want to argue your point, debate against what we actually teach and believe and not what you think we do. Straw Men are always illogical and therefore always not only null and void, but false.
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No its not, the theoretical bible washed up on shore with the rest of the shipwreck debris.
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PaladinValer
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No its not, the theoretical bible washed up on shore with the rest of the shipwreck debris.
You added to the story. Read what was there originally. No shipwreck was mentioned.
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