Hebrews, the book that levels past and future temples.

brinny said:

Interesting. That word "rest" really stands out for me.....It symbolizes "completion" "it is finished"...all has been done, and there is no more to be done. Who or what could out-shine what was done by God's own hand, through His son, in Whom He is infinitely pleased with?

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That is exactly what the word shabat means.

Deut 5:29 said:

Nothing there about the sabbath one way or the other.

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The word days means the sabbath. This parallels other verses with the same list.

Originally Posted by brinny
Interesting. That word "rest" really stands out for me.....It symbolizes "completion" "it is finished"...all has been done, and there is no more to be done. Who or what could out-shine what was done by God's own hand, through His son, in Whom He is infinitely pleased with?

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from scratch said:

That is exactly what the word shabat means.

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Whoa! I didn't know that. Awesome!

JRSut1000 said:

There are two extremes here that Paul is comparing - being justified by Torah or just living like the typical Gentile of the day. Both are bad!

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Paul isn't contrasting paganism with the Torah/Pentateuch in any way shape or form.

Indeed, pagans observed days and months and years also.

from scratch said:

NOPE! But then that intrepatation depends on your view point of the Trinity - not to mention a disregard for Scripture. My Bible tells me that it was God the Father that Moses spoke to and not Jesus or the Holy Spirt.

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Just where does YOUR Bible tell you that?

from scratch said:

They Hoyl Spirit doesn't lead us back to what we're delivered from -Rom 7:6. To say so would be saying that God is rebelling against Himself as in the Trinity being uncooperative.

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That's right, the Holy Spirit will not lead you back into your old pagan ways. Also it will never lead you to break one of God's commands.

from scratch said:

Romans 11:32 says that the law indluding the 10 Cs were meant to be broken. Otherwise there would be no need for mercy.

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That is not true. If they were meant to be broken they wouldn't be LAWS.
If you were meant to break them you would be doing God's will and would not need mercy or the sacrifice of Christ applied to your sins.

JRSut1000 said:

[nvm] Basically, it is just as bad to use the Law to be justified as it is to be as they were prior to salvation (Gentiles following their own seasons/days/etc).

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To say this you have to refusing to understand that Paul went first to the Jew in their synagogue as his custom was wherever he went. Then you'd have to also say that there weren't Jewish converts to Christianity. If that were true why were the Jews so angry with Paul?

Deut 5:29 said:

Just where does YOUR Bible tell you that?

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Where would you like to start? I start with Gen 3:15 and say that the Speaker isn't Jesus but is God the Father.

Next I really love Ex 33:20 for support. Who was Moses talking to? Remember God doesn't change - Mal 3:6. Just how many saw Jesus face to face and could identify Him. This isn't so with God the Father. No one can see His face and live or Moses is lying. That would mean Moses isn't credible. Then on what do you believe the 10 Cs were written with the finger of God? Nothing but the words of Moses who has just been discredited with your own reasoning.

That's right, the Holy Spirit will not lead you back into your old pagan ways. Also it will never lead you to break one of God's commands.

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This is putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and can't be backed up with Scripture. As such it is a false accusation.

That is not true. If they were meant to be broken they wouldn't be LAWS.
If you were meant to break them you would be doing God's will and would not need mercy or the sacrifice of Christ applied to your sins.

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Please explain Romans 11:32. What did God commit them to? Sin or violation of the law. The purpose is so God could show mercy. And to who? EVERYBODY! not just the Jews (Israelites).

Steve Petersen said:

Indeed, pagans observed days and months and years also.

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And so they did. Was Paul battling paganism or the false brethern demand the observance of Jewish law and customs every where Paul went. They followed him like bees to nectar/honey.

To promote your idea the problem has to be paganism and not Jewish customs. He Paul didn't insert a verse at random into a conversation about the law which is without a doubt the subject matter on both sides of v 10 in chapter 4. Just read it - the whole chapter.

JRSut1000 said:

Whoever is just trying to keep Torah without faith in Messiah, this is just as bad as obeying pagan festivals. This is the point Paul is trying to make when we compare all of these Scriptures in context. Paul is trying to basically save them from the sect of the Pharisees who were psuedo-messianics.

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Interesting change of tune.

I haven't changed my tune at all.

from scratch said:

And whosoever claims that we can keep the law with the aid of the Holy Spirit or faith in Jesus Christ is beside themselves. The challenge remains open for any one to prove and submit any single person who has ever done so.

Yes Paul implies that the keeping of the law is now a doctrine of man and has always been slanted to the performance of the flesh. Keeping the law isn't following the leading of the Spirit - Gal 5:18.

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Tell me what the law is and maybe i could agree or disagree. But the law could be anything.

I think we're both referring to Torah.

JRSut1000 said:

Shabbaton simply means 'high Sabbath'. The high holy days of God are known as or considered Sabbaths.

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NOPE! The word is used for sabbath in every OT reference to the weekly sabbath. High sabbaths are designated by adjectives such as Passover, feast of booths etc.


Shabbat is the Hebrew word and Shabbaton is the coresponding Greek word in every instance.

Shabbat shabbaton or miqra kodesh (set-apart/solemn assembly). Shabbat is refereed at Shabbat. But Shabbat Shabbaton is like saying 'Sabbath of sabbaths'. But if you just wanna say Shabbat (the weekly), it's just Shabbat (or Sabbath)

Why do you guys care if someone obeys Sabbath or not Scratch? Doesn't Paul give us some advise on it? Do you feel judged or do you think that others are going to hell for obeying Sabbath?

I meant scratch, sorry. Edit...

JRSut1000 said:

Shabbaton simply means 'high Sabbath'. The high holy days of God are known as or considered Sabbaths.

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I'm having a little trouble with the system at the moment. I should have added this or said it originally - Shabbat is the Hebrew word and Shabbaton is the coresponding Greek word in every instance.

11822 said:

Why do you guys care if someone obeys Sabbath or not Scratch? Doesn't Paul give us some advise on it? Do you feel judged or do you think that others are going to hell for obeying Sabbath?

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I think the issue is that some demand the observance of the sabbath. I don't think it is others who don't care if the 7th day sabbath is observed. I don't see those same people who don't keep the sabbath demand that those who do shouldn't. A major difference between law keepers and and grace observers.

from scratch said:

I think the issue is that some demand the observance of the sabbath. I don't think it is others who don't care if the 7th day sabbath is observed. I don't see those same people who don't keep the sabbath demand that those who do shouldn't. A major difference between law keepers and and grace observers.

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Why am i considered a law keeper? All i do is post NT NC doctrine, never OT OC doctrine. Do we just misunderstand each other?