The Gifts have Ceased?

SwordoftheLord said:

What do you mean by gifts? If you mean speaking gibberish(what some call tongues) is not even in the bible..

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So what is 1 Corinthians 14 all about then? Is that missing from your version of the Bible? Paul uses a whole chapter of the book of Corinthians to put the church right on the correct use of the gift of tongues.

If you think that speaking in tongues is gibberish, then you want to listen to a group of Indians or Chinese people talking. I once had a Latvian girlfriend who was bilingual. I spent a lot of time with her family who spoke Latvian all the time. It sounded a lot of gobbledygook to me, but they understood each other.

All tongues is, according to Paul the apostle, is a prayer language that is inspired by the Holy Spirit that God understands.

It would be good to spend some time with a sound Charismatic who loves the Lord, sincere, having a good theological knowledge, and does not go along with the hype that sometimes accompanies the Charismatic experience, and who will not try and force it on you. Pick his brains and get all the information you can before you make a judgment. You might be surprised at how level headed many Charismatics are, and who are willing to give you all the information you need without obligation.

I don't think they've ceased, but the question is "What exactly is a gift?" If you think a gift is the ability to start babbling then I think you're wrong. Speaking in "tongues" is pretty much just mass hysteria.

Do I believe that spiritual gifts have ceased? No. Do I believe that there is much misinformation about what they are and where they are to be found? Definitely. Every truly good, selfless work done in the Church is a gift of the Spirit, from the working of miracles to helpful advice from a wiser individual. 1 Corinthians says that we are all many members of one Body, and that we all differ in what we were made to do as part of that entity. 1 Corinthians 12 lists the way God ordered these dispensations of gifts, and asks "do all do this" for each one. Are all apostles? Prophets? Teachers? Workers of miracles? I think even the hardest Continuationist would not say so, because then there would be no need of each other; we would certainly not be many parts of one body. Much the opposite: each of us would be an eye, a hand, an ear, and a xiphoid process at once, and would "have no need of" each other, not because they are less useful, but because we all are all the parts ourselves.

Regarding tongues specifically, it seems to have had effectively disappeared when the Church was established, and by records of the Fathers, this was the case even by 400. St. Clement of Rome wrote to the Corinthians around 100, and even to this church which is somehow held up as exemplary for tongues despite their connection to it being St. Paul's reproof for using them improperly, no mention of tongues is made. None of the Desert Fathers were known to speak in any tongue but their own, and these men were so filled with the Spirit that they raised the dead. Further, if tongues are a private worship or prayer language, why use them in church? That seems to be what the Corinthians did, and Paul rebuked them by saying the Holy Spirit is not one of disorder and chaos. Even in the so-called proof text, he definitely minimizes the importance of tongues, and even implies that they are not necessary, whatever the true form of the gift might be. Why is there no mention of everyone speaking in tongues throughout the Church's history, if it is a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence? Why is the "Baptism of the Spirit" accompanied by emotional reactions like laughter, falling to the floor uncontrollably, trance-like dancing, incomprehensible babbling, and other such reactions found nowhere in Church history when God made himself present (indeed, the feeling of awe and ardent reget over sins and motivation to penitence so often accompanying such encounters being replaced by a spirtual sort of warm-fuzzies is enough to make me suspicious), and ESPECIALLY not in Scripture when he did so?

Miracles still happen today, and spiritual gifts there are (even tongues just like the Apostles: St. Francis Xavier miraculously spoke to the people in Goa without knowing the laguage first), but I cannot believe that the Charismatic conception is the right one. I am, however, open to refutation. If there's anyone who needs more of the truth of God in his life, it's definitely me.

One thing is for sure, you will not receive what you speak against. For those who don't believe in Gods power manifested through the holy spirit at this time and what was promised in Gods word was only for that day, how do you logically believe the rest of the word. How do we preach from the old testament? How do we believe salvation is for this time. For me I trust all of the word as the living word of God. With God time is has no constraints. I truly wish more eyes were opened as to what is being stated by so many. How do you apply some and not all? What do you believe in when we pick and choose time dispensation for Gods word. We must be so far above Paul because we can discern for ourselves at what time the spirit ceased to be poured out. I am over people bashing people of faith over tongue's. You are clueless and demonise what you don't understand. Just because of some nut cases well their in all faiths. What ever denominations you are I bet we could find cult versions somewhere. In these Christian forums there are beliefs that are far from the word of God. By unbelieving in the power of the holy spirit you are missing so much of what God has done for us. Without faith it is impossible to please him. He is the God of all comfort for me and could be for you if you let him. Whom the son has set free is free indeed. God bless

Having attended Pentecostal churches before and experiencing some things (for the positive), I know for myself that tongues, prophecy, working of miracles, and other Spiritual gifts are still very much for today. I mean, I would be foolish to deny it because many of the churches of Pentecostal denominations truly conduct things in an orderly fashion, exactly the way God would have it, and you come out of such churches feeling good all over. What I do know, however, is that the Pentecostal name is marred because there are some (more than we'd like to think) that claim to be "Pentecostal" that are really unconventional and offbeat in a lot of the things they practice (with which I am also familiar). It's actually quite sad, really, because there are many people who have had experiences in these churches, as well, and for the negative. It scared them, and therefore they write off all Pentecostals (even calling them "cults") just because of one or two sour experiences. See, there is a difference between a truly Spirit-filled, genuine, Pentecostal church and those churches that are just plain weird. But some people just can't see the difference; they're all alike to them, so they're just set in what they're going to think.

I believe every Christian will be blessed with gifts from God, to use in their witnessing, ministry, and other work for Him. Some of these are the Spiritual gifts, but it also says in the Bible that not all Christians will have these gifts (see 1 Corinthians 12:29-30). Verse 31 does go on to say that Christians should earnestly desire the best gifts. After all, we are His children, therefore, as the loving Father He is, desires only the best for us. But I also believe all Christians (no matter what denomination) are unique as individuals, so I'm confident that God will not give a gift to believers that is unsuitable to them. Some worship Him a little more loudly, while others are quieter worshippers, and God is understanding of that. That's why I believe we will see a variety of Christians in Heaven, from a variety of denominations ranging from Methodist to Baptist to Nazarene to Pentecostal, and more. Every good gift comes from above, so God expects us to use our gifts to our utmost for Him. If we are doing that, that's what counts.

I'll sum it all up with this Scripture from Hebrews 13:8, which says: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Not wanting any debate or anything like that; I'm just speaking from my heart, explaining what I feel in the best possible way I know how.

I agree. God is all knowing and what he gives is to his pleasure. Even the Apostles were diverse in how they walked with Christ. From Thomas to Peter, Thomas had to touch Christ risen and Peter stepped out of the boat. I have been troubled as to the lack of unity in today's church's. We have festivals all the time over produce and other common things.I asked a few ministers about a Christian festival and tent revival and multi denomination to win souls where their drawn to. Each one cut me off and dismissed it. Talk about a house divided they probably couldn't agree on what color the tents would be. But I would bet if they brought honestly before their memberships it would happen.

I agree. So many pastors now a days are more worried about money than souls for Christ. It makes no sense. Why get all the money in the world and sacrifice somebody's soul to eternal torture? Makes no sense to me.

So many pastors are worried about there sheep looking else ware the put blinders on them. And keep them sheered so they will stay.

"There are some people that will tell you that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit have ceased."

TRUE statement - MOST of the Organized church was "cessationistic" in the 19th century. They would generally ALLOW God to do at HIS discretion, Miraculous things, but they DID teach that the "Giftings" in 1 Cor 12 DID Cease - generally based on some variation of the argument that "That which is perfect" in 1 Cor 13 refers to the Canon of Scripture. There are other arguments - the death of the last apostle (believing that only the Apostles could Minister the gifts), and even the invention of the printing press (That made the word available to the masses).

"I have two questions concerning this. Where does it say that in the Bible?"

It never says it. Denominational interpretations "say it".

"How do you explain 1st Corinthians chapters 12-14, Ephesians 4, and Romans 12 which make it very clear that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are an important part of a healthy local church?"

Since I'm a "Continuationalist" - Spoken in tongues for 39 years now, and been burdened occasionally to manifest Prophesy, and Interpretation of Tongues, I don't HAVE to "explain anything" I just live in it, and UNDERSTAND that, as 1 Cor 12 says, the Holy Spirit distributes the "gifts" (or doesn't distribute 'em) to Whomever He pleases, Whenever He pleases, at ANY TIME he pleases. The "Gifts" are "Temporary empowerments" given to accomplish certain specific things - healings, wisdom, faith, miracles - whatever. As Oscarr says - they're "TOOLS" for ministry to the Body of Christ.

NOTE:
It's a matter of record, however, that the OVERT manifestations of the Holy Spirit DID become VERY rare during the middle ages, and REMAINED rare until the early 20th century when God re-introduced them with a BANG! in the "Pentecostal revival" (1900 - 1914 or so) in the "Holiness" churches, and then again in the Charismatic outpouring (1966 to 1978 or so) mostly among the Catholics, and Liberal churches - which was a world-wide phenomenon.

franky67 said:

You started this thread in June, 2010, it's now Nov 14, I have read the whole thread, and not one post has contained a single verse that plainly states that the gifts of the holy Spirit have ceased from being a part of the Kingdom of Heaven,

Cessationism is a false teaching to justify the existence of a dead church.

2 Tim 3:5
"Holding to a form of Godliness, although they have denied it's power..."

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Amen in all debate I have posted in and talked with pastors about, no one has ever been able to show Bible verse that says the gifts have ceased. As far as not going beyond Christ and his Disciples, the Holy Spirit was poured out to thousands at and after Pentecost . Paul mentored many and laid hands on many. We serve a living God who does not change. As far as mircials go other people around the world receive them more due to their childlike faith. They haven't been exposed to faithless theology as we in the body have. So much of western culture has moved to religious ceremony instead of a spiritual belife in God. Let's not forget the dark ages and things like the Spanish Inquisition that lasted until 1834 this had a huge impact on how we worship that is still causing doubt today

The supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including healing and casting out of demons faded away from the Church because of two major factors:

1. The Church became insitutionalised and developed a central leadership who appointed pastors and ministers based on factors other than Holy Spirit giftings. This was the first nail in the coffin.

2. When paganism was outlawed in the Roman Empire in the late Fourth Century by the sons of the Emperor Constantine, the pagan temples were turned into Christian churches (hence the idea of having large ornate buildings), and many pagans went into the Church but without dedicating themselves to Christ. In fact, they became nominal Christians without accepting Christ as Saviour. This was when the religious spirit entered the church. With that, the supernatural signs and wonders faded away, because God does not have fellowship with darkness.

3. Most Churches are still affected by pagan influences - ornate "temples", pagan festivals "Christianised", religiosity, liturgical "masses", transubstantiation, etc. These things did not exist in the Christian church before the Fourth Century AD. This is why we don't see a lot of the supernatural in our churches.

4. John Calvin taught that the supernatural gifts ceased when the last Apostle died. He could not quote any Scriptural reference for that. It was his own opinion. Just imagine John the Apostle on his death bed and a long line of people wanting to receive the laying on of hands for healing. They have to hurry up and be ministered to because the moment that John dies, it will be all over. That is as ridiculous as it sounds.

5. The historical records of the early church fathers and saints right through to the 12th Century show that miraculous healings and deliverances still went on. One of Martin Luther's fellow ministers gives a comprehensive account of a young woman being set free from a demon. And St Benedict, in the 12th Century raised a worker who was killed when a wall fell on him, from the dead. John Wesley had 250 genuine, documented healings during his ministry, and even his horse got healed of lameness on one occasion! The absence of Scripture proof, and the record of church history shows the falsehood and lie of the cessationist doctrine.

So, it wasn't God who caused the supernatural gifts to cease. It was the Church that did it to itself through its own foolishness and apostacy. Church history shows that there were many saints and Christian movements, that would not accept the errors of the apostate church, had supernatural signs and wonders associated with the preaching of the Gospel in their day.

I'm an evangelical with a reformed background, I guess. We like to think ourselves so intellectual with theory.
We also don't really have any power when it comes down to people who are possessed with demons or sick, even though the bible does not say that we ever stopped having authority or power over either.
I became physically possessed with demons, and if it had only been me, then I would have held to my strict evangelical theory, but it affected an entire house full of people, believers and not. So what was I to do? Deny the very thing that we were all experiencing? No way!

I learned things that not only enabled me to break free, but to free those, saved and not, to break free as well. I don't have the fear of demons that I used to have; and believe me, I have experienced things that come right out of a horror movie. But I have authority now because I learned that the very existence of saints in the earth is to defeat the devils.

After that I began to support foreign missions and the martyrs. I learned that many people are not only exercising the gifts of the early church, but that unbelievers, for instance Muslim Imams, are being converted by those miraculous gifts. Either it is happening and we must adapt our American theology, or they are not, and we must call all the overseas missionaries and converts liars.

In America, we have bought so much into the technical sophistication of modern secularism that we don't believe in or have the power of the apostles and many generations of believers since. We think that we are the standard, and everyone else in history and the world is somehow inferior to us. But the reality is that the rest of the world is living traditional, New Testament christianity, and we are the anomaly.
Before we condemn those we disagree with out of culturism, we should visit them to see if what we heard is true. We are brethren after all.

heritage36 said:

The main thing I can do to show you what I am saying is to show you scripture that demonstrates we are in Gods grace now, and that this is different than it was in the Acts period...

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sorry for jumping into the conversation late and I will admit I only got a chance to read the first few pages of dialog but I thought these verses may add some clarity on if the Holy Spirit is still working today in manifested gifts...

Act 2:38,39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

The context of this of course is the day of Pentecost when, what I will call the age of the Holy Spirit, was ushered in upon those in the upper room in a sound like "a violent rushing wind" and manifested by tongues of fire that rested on each one. Acts 2:38,39 is the conclusion of Peter's sermon to those who witnessed this experience.

To me "the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off" is not a reference of the period surrounding the events of Acts which is from what I understand a little over 30 years. Not exactly what I would call a span of time to describe "all who are far off" At best I can see 2 generations in that time span and maybe 3 depending how old their children may be.

WannaWitness said:

Having attended Pentecostal churches before and experiencing some things (for the positive), I know for myself that tongues, prophecy, working of miracles, and other Spiritual gifts are still very much for today. I mean, I would be foolish to deny it because many of the churches of Pentecostal denominations truly conduct things in an orderly fashion, exactly the way God would have it, and you come out of such churches feeling good all over. What I do know, however, is that the Pentecostal name is marred because there are some (more than we'd like to think) that claim to be "Pentecostal" that are really unconventional and offbeat in a lot of the things they practice (with which I am also familiar). It's actually quite sad, really, because there are many people who have had experiences in these churches, as well, and for the negative. It scared them, and therefore they write off all Pentecostals (even calling them "cults") just because of one or two sour experiences. See, there is a difference between a truly Spirit-filled, genuine, Pentecostal church and those churches that are just plain weird. But some people just can't see the difference; they're all alike to them, so they're just set in what they're going to think.

I believe every Christian will be blessed with gifts from God, to use in their witnessing, ministry, and other work for Him. Some of these are the Spiritual gifts, but it also says in the Bible that not all Christians will have these gifts (see 1 Corinthians 12:29-30). Verse 31 does go on to say that Christians should earnestly desire the best gifts. After all, we are His children, therefore, as the loving Father He is, desires only the best for us. But I also believe all Christians (no matter what denomination) are unique as individuals, so I'm confident that God will not give a gift to believers that is unsuitable to them. Some worship Him a little more loudly, while others are quieter worshippers, and God is understanding of that. That's why I believe we will see a variety of Christians in Heaven, from a variety of denominations ranging from Methodist to Baptist to Nazarene to Pentecostal, and more. Every good gift comes from above, so God expects us to use our gifts to our utmost for Him. If we are doing that, that's what counts.

I'll sum it all up with this Scripture from Hebrews 13:8, which says: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Not wanting any debate or anything like that; I'm just speaking from my heart, explaining what I feel in the best possible way I know how.

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That is one of the issues I have with some of the charasmatic movement. Feelings. You spoke about leaving churches feeling good and how you in your heart feel about things. I don't want to appear as a jerk but we as fallen and sinful creatures can not base things off emotions and feelings. The heart is deceitfully wicked (Jer 17) so we must guard ourselves from what it tells us at times as well. Do I believe in the gifts, yes I do. I personally don't collect from Scripture that they would or have ceased. Have I ever seen them used properly; no I haven't. I have never seen interpretation of tongues. Tongues was used in NT as a way of Gospel delivery to someone who spoke that language (Acts 2:6-8). Like if i was to go to mexico and was gifted with their language to preach the Gospel, i would have received the gift of tongues. I feel this misuse of the gifts is damaging like Paul said it could be and can lead newly churched people away. But I do believe that the all powerful God can gift some today, and that He might still do so for some.

FOSJosh said:

That is one of the issues I have with some of the charasmatic movement. Feelings. You spoke about leaving churches feeling good and how you in your heart feel about things. I don't want to appear as a jerk but we as fallen and sinful creatures can not base things off emotions and feelings. The heart is deceitfully wicked (Jer 17) so we must guard ourselves from what it tells us at times as well. Do I believe in the gifts, yes I do. I personally don't collect from Scripture that they would or have ceased. Have I ever seen them used properly; no I haven't. I have never seen interpretation of tongues. Tongues was used in NT as a way of Gospel delivery to someone who spoke that language (Acts 2:6-8). Like if i was to go to mexico and was gifted with their language to preach the Gospel, i would have received the gift of tongues. I feel this misuse of the gifts is damaging like Paul said it could be and can lead newly churched people away. But I do believe that the all powerful God can gift some today, and that He might still do so for some.

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I see what you're saying, about it being a heart issue. Discernment will tell you whether the church is phony, or not, or practicing the use of the Spiritual gifts in accordance with the Word of God. However, you may not be fully understanding what I was meaning by "feelings". I agree that you don't go totally on "how you're feeling", as that will get you nowhere. But there is a slight degree of "feeling" that does come into play. That is, if the service is conducted in order and according to the Bible, then the feeling in your heart will be good. That's what I mean by feeling; it's just that with discernment, one knows whether the feeling comes from God or not.

I hope this sheds a little more light as to what I am getting at. If not, let's just leave it at that, and agree to disagree as the brother and sister in Christ we are, as I have explained the best way I know how.

God bless.

sheetiron said:

There are some people that will tell you that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit have ceased. I have two questions concerning this. Where does it say that in the Bible? How do you explain 1st Corinthians chapters 12-14, Ephesians 4, and Romans 12 which make it very clear that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are an important part of a healthy local church?

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Sorry to be chiming in so late but don't worry, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well. Only those who have not experienced these gifts claim that they have ceased.

God bless,
Yarddog