the worst unorthodox teaching of all

CatholicandaHalf · Jul 21, 2011

i feel that once saved always saved is the worst belief of all. It encourages people to sin and to remain in their sin.

Yet Revelation tells us that no unclean thing will enter Heaven.

Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, started this heresy

and it is not fun living w/ people who believe this false doctrine

they will treat you any kind of way and justify it by osas

OSAS opens the door to the devil in a HUGE way

gort · Jul 21, 2011

CatholicandaHalf said:
i feel that once saved always saved is the worst belief of all. It encourages people to sin and to remain in their sin.

Yet Revelation tells us that no unclean thing will enter Heaven.

Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, started this heresy

and it is not fun living w/ people who believe this false doctrine

they will treat you any kind of way and justify it by osas

OSAS opens the door to the devil in a HUGE way

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I would ask, if one is saved and is born of God then how could they be encouraged to stay in their sin if 1Jn_3:9 is true?

What do you think about Jesus saying what he said in Joh_6:37 ?

And what about Eph 1:13, 14 ?

Superfast · Jul 24, 2011

CatholicandaHalf said:
i feel that once saved always saved is the worst belief of all. It encourages people to sin and to remain in their sin.

Yet Revelation tells us that no unclean thing will enter Heaven.

Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, started this heresy

and it is not fun living w/ people who believe this false doctrine

they will treat you any kind of way and justify it by osas

OSAS opens the door to the devil in a HUGE way

Ah so, the inside scoop on what catholics say about protestants. Protestants say something similar about catholics, they say you catholics commit any sin you want to then go to confessional and say 10 hail marys and everything's ok. Have you ever done that? come on now be honest.

Lord Herdsetk · Jul 24, 2011

gort said:
Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I would ask, if one is saved and is born of God then how could they be encouraged to stay in their sin if 1Jn_3:9 is true?

What do you think about Jesus saying what he said in Joh_6:37 ?

And what about Eph 1:13, 14 ?

People still sin, regardless if they're saved or not. I think 1 John 3:9 is saying that anyone who has been born again cannot stand living in sin. Thus, they cannot continue to sin. You seem to be saying the same thing, but I just wanted to clarify that.

It makes you wonder though, what about 'back slidding' Christians? People who were once on fire for God but have lapsed back into their old ways whether it be from life beating them down or their faith in God being shaken to its very core.

Armistead14 · Jul 24, 2011

No unclean thing can enter heaven because it will be a sinless spiritual realm, it has no bearing on our humanity and the fact we are sinful. Heaven will be much different than earth. The bible list many sins on earth that wouldn't be allowed to exist in heaven.

Notice what Christ says in Matt:21.31 when he was dealing with self righteous pharisees. Christ didn't say tax collectors and prostitutes couldn't enter heaven, in fact he stated they would before the pharisees. However, we know the behavior or sin or these groups won't be allowed in heaven, why, the reason for their work is no longer needed, most prostitutes then were forced pagans or did so to eat and stay alive. The sinner will enter heaven, the sin they once lived in will be judged and burned up.

Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

A New Dawn · Jul 24, 2011

CatholicandaHalf said:
i feel that once saved always saved is the worst belief of all. It encourages people to sin and to remain in their sin.

Yet Revelation tells us that no unclean thing will enter Heaven.

Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, started this heresy

and it is not fun living w/ people who believe this false doctrine

they will treat you any kind of way and justify it by osas

OSAS opens the door to the devil in a HUGE way

Actually, it doesn't. Can you provide a link to a site (or even anyone on this discussion board) that claims that anyone who believes they are saved are free to sin? (And links to people saying people believe it don't count.)

Also, just wondering why you started this in Unorthodox Theology instead of General Theology.

gort · Jul 24, 2011

Lord Herdsetk said:
People still sin, regardless if they're saved or not. I think 1 John 3:9 is saying that anyone who has been born again cannot stand living in sin. Thus, they cannot continue to sin. You seem to be saying the same thing, but I just wanted to clarify that.

It makes you wonder though, what about 'back slidding' Christians? People who were once on fire for God but have lapsed back into their old ways whether it be from life beating them down or their faith in God being shaken to its very core.

As in v.8, those who practice sin are of the devil and in v.9 those born of God cannot practice sin or cannot stand living in sin as you say.

In v. 10 it says in this are manifest the children of God. As to 'back sliders', I do not think it possible to lapse completely into the old ways. After all, one is born of God.

Superfast · Jul 24, 2011

Obverse. what's the worse orthodox teaching of all?

all of it. 3 is one, 3 gods are only to be called god if you don't add them up, if you add them up you call them persons of god, otherwise each one is god, and of course since 3 is one, there is only one god. a doctrine based entirely on spurious, interpolated scriptures, fautly grammar, made up fake grammar rules, misnomers, a failure to understand the meaning of words, making words mean the opposite of what they mean (when convenient), and a ready willingness to contradict scripture at will when necessary. and if t hat isn't enough, also a complete lack of logic in anything describing it. voila it doesn't get any worse than that.

the worse unorthodox theology? I'd say maybe prosperity doctrine, (that is amongst the widely practiced unorthodox theologies). Bad as eternal security is, it's not that bad, in my opinon.oh equal eldership, that's pretty bad too. and probably there are others I can't think of. I don't know everything, sorry.

grizzlyburr · Jul 25, 2011

You can't unsave yourself. Reformation theology is pretty solid, and scriptually backed up. As well as believed by reputable people like Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, St. Augustine. People need to stop limiting God's powers to just some dude that simply sits around and just stares at whats going on like we're some oversized ant farm.

Superfast · Jul 25, 2011

grizzlyburr said:
You can't unsave yourself. Reformation theology is pretty solid, and scriptually backed up. As well as believed by reputable people like Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, St. Augustine. People need to stop limiting God's powers to just some dude that simply sits around and just stares at whats going on like we're some oversized ant farm.

well, no need for you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling then since you can't possibly unsave yourself.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 25, 2011

CatholicandaHalf said:
i feel that once saved always saved is the worst belief of all. It encourages people to sin and to remain in their sin. Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, started this heresy

Wrong. Luther actually REJECTED that teaching. You seem to have Luther confused with some Calvinists (and you are misrepresenting the view of those).

IMO, the worse heresy is that we are justified by OUR works. This makes the Savior the one we see in the mirror and not Jesus; it negates the very core and foundation of Christianity: that Jesus is the Savior. Destroying the core and foundation of Christianity is exactly what Satan seeks to do.

.

A New Dawn · Jul 25, 2011

Superfast said:
well, no need for you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling then since you can't possibly unsave yourself.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

It says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, not work for your salvation with fear and trembling.

good brother · Jul 25, 2011

Salvation is a gift of God NOT OF MAN, lest anyone should boast. God's gift of salvation is a gift, and He is no indian giver. If we aren't good enough to earn it, what makes us think we are bad enough to lose it? God's word promises that we "can know we are saved". Know. How can anyone know if at any one time they might lose it? God's word says that no one can pluck us out of His hands. Who then can lose it?

In Christ, GB

Superfast · Jul 25, 2011

A New Dawn said:
It says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, not work for your salvation with fear and trembling.

God gives us our salvation on the condition that we become his love slave and obey him. the condition is that we believe on him. Our works do not obtain salvation for us but if we reject the offer of salvation by god by disobeying him and turning from him, then we have not worked out our salvation with any fear or tremebling and the results are going to be devestating. That's what it means to me. Personally I wouldn't want to take a chance that it means we enter heaven by the skin of our teeth. I have noticed that those who believe in eternal security are not the least bit concerned and have no fear or trembling about not being right with God. There is no urgency in them, for the most part, to get their lives completely right with god. those that work out their salvation with fear and trembling are the ones who don't believe in eternal security, and are the most likely to do the very best they can to be the most right with God that they can be. Fear of putting your hand on a fiery furnace is strong impetus for doing right. If you dohn't have that fear, and eternal securitists don't, then they loose that impetus. resulting in them often making daisy chains till the Lord returns.
what does it mean to you? You said it dosn't mean FOR but you didn't say what it does mean. I know it doesn't mean work FOR your salvation, cause it doesn't say that. I can tell you one thing, it sure doesn't mean "don't worry about it, do whatever you wanna do."

A New Dawn · Jul 25, 2011

Superfast said:
God gives us our salvation on the condition that we become his love slave and obey him. the condition is that we believe on him. Our works do not obtain salvation for us but if we reject the offer of salvation by god by disobeying him and turning from him, then we have not worked out our salvation with any fear or tremebling and the results are going to be devestating. That's what it means to me. Personally I wouldn't want to take a chance that it means we enter heaven by the skin of our teeth. I have noticed that those who believe in eternal security are not the least bit concerned and have no fear or trembling about not being right with God. There is no urgency in them, for the most part, to get their lives completely right with god. those that work out their salvation with fear and trembling are the ones who don't believe in eternal security, and are the most likely to do the very best they can to be the most right with God that they can be. Fear of putting your hand on a fiery furnace is strong impetus for doing right. If you dohn't have that fear, and eternal securitists don't, then they loose that impetus. resulting in them often making daisy chains till the Lord returns.
what does it mean to you? You said it dosn't mean FOR but you didn't say what it does mean. I know it doesn't mean work FOR your salvation, cause it doesn't say that. I can tell you one thing, it sure doesn't mean "don't worry about it, do whatever you wanna do."

I do not believe that salvation can be lost, but there is more to salvation than just justification. I believe that the scripture refers to sanctification, the part of salvation that we participate in. Participating with the Holy Spirit in being conformed to the image of Christ.

Hillsage · Jul 25, 2011

A New Dawn said:
I do not believe that salvation can be lost, but there is more to salvation than just justification. I believe that the scripture refers to sanctification, the part of salvation that we participate in. Participating with the Holy Spirit in being conformed to the image of Christ.

I agree with you that there is more to salvation. I think that the spirit is justified and the soul is sanctified and the body is glorified.

We can't 'do anything/works' to get our spirit saved because that salvation was appropriated by the work of Jesus and not our works. The salvation of a 'born again' spirit and is secure in his hand and is OSAS...but that is only for the initial salvation of a person's spirit.

The "more to salvation than just justification" that you talked about is next, when you move to step two....that being you then 'work out the salvation of your soul with fear and trembling'. So I would put emphasis on a different word than you did.

I would say "work out YOUR salvation with fear and trembling,"

The imputed righteousness you received from Jesus for justification of your spirit now needs to be followed up with the imparted righteousness of sanctification where we start thinking like Jesus and walking in holiness.

As much as you work out the salvation of your soul (how much "Christ be formed IN you") will determine how much of a glorified body you receive upon judgment.

A New Dawn · Jul 25, 2011

Hillsage said:
I agree with you that there is more to salvation. I think that the spirit is justified and the soul is sanctified and the body is glorified.

Can you provide references to validate what you are saying here?

We can't 'do anything/works' to get our spirit saved because that salvation was appropriated by the work of Jesus and not our works. The salvation of a 'born again' spirit and is secure in his hand and is OSAS...but that is only for the initial salvation of a person's spirit.

How can someone (or something) be OSAS if it can be lost later on?

The "more to salvation than just justification" that you talked about is next, when you move to step two....that being you then 'work out the salvation of your soul with fear and trembling'. So I would put emphasis on a different word than you did.

I would say "work out YOUR salvation with fear and trembling,"

OK, when you provide references for the above stated belief, we can discuss this then.

The imputed righteousness you received from Jesus for justification of your spirit now needs to be followed up with the imparted righteousness of sanctification where we start thinking like Jesus and walking in holiness.

Huh???

As much as you work out the salvation of your soul (how much "Christ be formed IN you") will determine how much of a glorified body you receive upon judgment.

Do you mean like a 75% glorified body? What happens to the part that isn't glorified?

Son of Zadok · Jul 25, 2011

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Wrong. Luther actually REJECTED that teaching. You seem to have Luther confused with some Calvinists (and you are misrepresenting the view of those).

IMO, the worse heresy is that we are justified by OUR works. This makes the Savior the one we see in the mirror and not Jesus; it negates the very core and foundation of Christianity: that Jesus is the Savior. Destroying the core and foundation of Christianity is exactly what Satan seeks to do.

.

You are wrong - the worse kind of heresy is the silly notion that G-d will damn some person to hell for trying with all their heart to follow Jesus and be a “good” Christian.

I believe the second worse heresy is to convince ourselves that we are saved by G-d’s grace and that someone else (for reasons we make up through interpretations of translated scriptures) are not worthy of G-d’s grace and therefore will not be saved.

Son of Zadok

Superfast · Jul 25, 2011

A New Dawn said:
I do not believe that salvation can be lost, but there is more to salvation than just justification. I believe that the scripture refers to sanctification, the part of salvation that we participate in. Participating with the Holy Spirit in being conformed to the image of Christ.

So it should read "work out your sanctification with fear and trembling", according to you. I'll stick with what the word of god says instead of what you change it to.

A New Dawn · Jul 25, 2011

Superfast said:
so you just change the word of god salvation to read sanctification and it fits in with your doctrine. Is there anyway to say in greek what it says in greek? I didn't think so.

Salvation is a multi-faceted process, not a one-time dealiwhiz. It is more than justification, just read the Bible. Salvation includes justification, sanctification, glorification, and other steps along the way. Which aspect of salvation would you insert into the scripture so it fits in with your doctrine?

the worst unorthodox teaching of all

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