What are your views on Baptism?

U

Ukrainia

Guest
I’m curious what your views of baptism are, so I thought I'd also add a thread on what people's views are on baptism as I already started one on the Lord's Supper.

Answer true or false to these statements:


It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again

Through baptism our sins are forgiven

Through baptism we are granted saving faith

Babies should be baptized

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized

Baptism is important

I am baptized
 

Andrew12

A Knight of the Lord
Nov 4, 2010
6,245
742
Mainstreet, AnyTown
Visit site
✟17,283.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again T

Through baptism our sins are forgiven F

Through baptism we are granted saving faith F

Babies should be baptized F

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized T

Baptism is important T

I am baptized T
 
Upvote 0

Keri

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2006
21,131
4,240
✟51,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again T

Through baptism our sins are forgiven F

Through baptism we are granted saving faith F

Babies should be baptized F

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized T

Baptism is important T

I am baptized T
These are my answers as well. :)
 
Upvote 0

Qyöt27

AMV Editor At Large
Apr 2, 2004
7,879
573
38
St. Petersburg, Florida
✟81,859.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again
True, in the same way as circumcision was/is for Judaism (thus I would dispute the 'born again' part, but it's not as powerful a disagreement over wording as the Communion question was). More fully, it is a sacrament and means of grace and a symbol of the work of prevenient grace. It is a setting apart and initiation into community.

Through baptism our sins are forgiven
True, insofar as 'one baptism for the remission of sins' is concerned. False in the sense that it can forgive without repentance on the part of the believer, or that it is something to be done as routine.

Through baptism we are granted saving faith
False. Faith is a conscious decision, while baptism need not be.

Babies should be baptized
True.

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized
False.

Baptism is important
True.

I am baptized
True.
 
Upvote 0

white dove

(she's a) maniac
Jan 23, 2004
24,118
2,234
Out there, livin'
✟49,357.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
Answer true or false to these statements:


It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again True

Through baptism our sins are forgiven False

Through baptism we are granted saving faith False

Babies should be baptized I would say they don't have to be baptized, but they can be. I do not condemn that practice even though I do not, personally, believe in it.

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized Sketchy - yes and no. This question reads methodically and the Spirit of God does not work that way - at least that is how I believe. The Spirit prompts, but it is not always in an intellectual manner.

Baptism is important True - but it does not always have to look like how we think of it in order for it to be powerful and/or valid in the eyes of God and to the believer

I am baptized True
 
Upvote 0

Timyone

Senior Member
May 15, 2006
1,186
37
41
sydney
✟9,049.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again True

Through baptism our sins are forgiven false

Through baptism we are granted saving faith false

Babies should be baptized

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized

Baptism is important Though i think you can go with out it, i think it is. True

I am baptized True



Other questions are about baby baptism etc


EDIT: oops should have read more
 
Upvote 0

kingoffools13

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2007
3,122
244
PA
✟12,291.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again - T

Through baptism our sins are forgiven - F Only through Jesus' sacrifice are we forgiven

Through baptism we are granted saving faith - F the faith should come first not after

Babies should be baptized - F dedicated yes, baptized as a baby is about as useful as a good bath

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized - F No most people don't fully understand what they are doing when they get saved or baptized, they get the basics yeah but it usually takes years of study and discipleship before you get a real grasp of the whole picture and what it all really means.

Baptism is important - T yeah, Jesus did it, great example to follow

I am baptized - T

K
___o
______F
 
Upvote 0

Incariol

Newbie
Apr 22, 2011
5,710
251
✟7,523.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I’m curious what your views of baptism are, so I thought I'd also add a thread on what people's views are on baptism as I already started one on the Lord's Supper.

Answer true or false to these statements:


It’s a powerful symbol of God inviting us into his family as we're born again

True.

Through baptism our sins are forgiven

True.

Through baptism we are granted saving faith

True.

Babies should be baptized

True.

Only people with an intellectual understanding of what they’re doing should be baptized

False.

Baptism is important

True.

I am baptized

True.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ks777

Start singing
May 8, 2009
4,610
544
Other world
✟16,650.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Baptism is important
True. Yahushua advocated it, so if it's important to Him it should be important to us.

However I haven't been baptised yet, as a baby or an adult. According to Catholics I'm going to hell :p. While not necessary for salvation, it's still important symbolism as an outward expression for Spiritual re-birth.

EDIT: My mistake, apparently in 2007 Pope Benedict reversed that Roman Catholic teaching and created a new doctrine: Infants go to heaven regardless of baptism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
U

Ukrainia

Guest
Qyöt27;57462889 said:
True, in the same way as circumcision was/is for Judaism (thus I would dispute the 'born again' part, but it's not as powerful a disagreement over wording as the Communion question was). More fully, it is a sacrament and means of grace and a symbol of the work of prevenient grace. It is a setting apart and initiation into community.

In both the baptism and the communion question I would have said true to all the questions, except for the ones which implied baptism and communion are symbols. In a very minor sense I suppose they can act as symbols too, but primarly I too think they are "means of grace" which apparently has a different meaning in Lutheran (that's me) and Methodist (yourself, correct?) circles. Or so wikipedia tells me.

The Lutheran perception of both baptism and communion is that God uses earthly means like the water in baptism and the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper in combination with his Word to forgive us our sins and create faith in us and make us part of his family. Therefore, sure, it's a symbol too, maybe in the same way eating food could symbolize fullness, but that symbol is completely lacking in importance to the fact that eating food actually does make us full. So Lutherans never use the term symbol when describing baptism or communion.

Qyöt27;57462889 said:
Faith is a conscious decision, while baptism need not be.

Faith, in the Lutheran (we, of course, would argue it's Biblical too) way of thinking, is not a conscious decision but a gift of God. This is huge in how we think about baptism and the Lord's Super. I'm not sure about Methodists, but it seems in the American non-denominational churches, the focus on baptism as a symbol stems from their perception as these sacraments being something that we do - a good work, perhaps. Therefore it's completely foreign to them how anyone could think of Baptism or Communion creating or strengthening a saving faith.

Lutherans would hearily agree that good works don't save. What we do believe is that God can use any means to work saving faith in us, and that includes his Word, Baptism and Holy Communion. Because it's God creating faith and not our own intellectual decision, it's perfectly right to expect that God can create saving faith through baptism in a baby, or a person with severe retardation or a disabled stroke victim or anyone without the intellectual brain power to make a decision for Christ. So, in the Lutheran view I would agrue that baptism and communion are infinitely more valuable than they are to those with the symbolic view. Baptism and communion are so much more than intellectual excercises, but a freely given gift of God where work is done in our hearts.

I'm curious what the Methodist view is. You believe that babies should be baptized, but it seems as though you do not think that God can work in us without using the mechanism of our intellect. So I'm wondering what baptism does for babies then.
 
Upvote 0

Blank123

Legend
Dec 6, 2003
30,061
3,897
✟56,875.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So for the people who argue you must have faith to be saved, yet also say unless you make a decision for Christ you cannot have faith, how then is someone saved who doesn't have the intellectual power to make a decision - like a baby or someone with severe mental retardation?

I wouldn't rule out someone's ability to understand the gospel because of mental retardation. I watched my own grandfather, well into dementia, able to respond to the gospel. The Holy Spirit knows no limits when He wants to draw someone unto Himself.

Otherwise... God knew what He was doing when He created those lives the way He did. He knew what He was doing when he took those lives. I'll trust His judgment for their eternal resting place.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
U

Ukrainia

Guest
State of accountability.

It would seem their would be more Biblical evidence, however for God being able to create faith in someone outside of the intellect. Surely God had something to do with creating faith in Paul, or John the Baptist leaping inside his mother's womb. To me it seems their is much more evidence for God being able to work faith in someone outside of the intellect than their is for an age of accountability..
 
Upvote 0

Gwendolyn

back in black
Jan 28, 2005
12,340
1,647
Canada
✟20,680.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
True. Yahushua advocated it, so if it's important to Him it should be important to us.

However I haven't been baptised yet, as a baby or an adult. According to Catholics I'm going to hell :p. While not necessary for salvation, it's still important symbolism as an outward expression for Spiritual re-birth.

EDIT: My mistake, apparently in 2007 Pope Benedict reversed that Roman Catholic teaching and created a new doctrine: Infants go to heaven regardless of baptism.

The Church can only trust in God's mercy. No one knows for sure what happens when an infant dies without baptism. There is no creation of a "new doctrine", unless trusting in God's mercy is a "new doctrine".
 
Upvote 0
U

Ukrainia

Guest
The Church can only trust in God's mercy. No one knows for sure what happens when an infant dies without baptism. There is no creation of a "new doctrine", unless trusting in God's mercy is a "new doctrine".

Basically I agree with this. Unfortunately we cannot know for sure what happens to an infant without baptism. But we do know that God is loving and gracious, so I lean towards believing that infants who die without baptism will be saved. Sometime the most truthful thing one can do when it comes to God's will is say "I don't know."
 
Upvote 0
S

SpiritualAntiseptic

Guest
EDIT: My mistake, apparently in 2007 Pope Benedict reversed that Roman Catholic teaching and created a new doctrine: Infants go to heaven regardless of baptism.

You can't reverse Catholic teaching.

The Church has never had a teaching on what happens to unbaptized babies when they die and I don't think it ever will. Catholic theology is complex, it doesn't go by black and white standards in which doing x yields y.

In the past, many speculated that unbaptized babies go to a place of mercy called limbo, in which they can enjoy all the joys possible naturally, but not the joys of the supernatural that we experience by being united to Christ. Today, the mainstream thought is that we trust the unbaptized into the loving mercy of God that He will bring them into Heaven.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Qyöt27

AMV Editor At Large
Apr 2, 2004
7,879
573
38
St. Petersburg, Florida
✟81,859.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
In both the baptism and the communion question I would have said true to all the questions, except for the ones which implied baptism and communion are symbols. In a very minor sense I suppose they can act as symbols too, but primarly I too think they are "means of grace" which apparently has a different meaning in Lutheran (that's me) and Methodist (yourself, correct?) circles. Or so wikipedia tells me.
The difference is whether something is 'merely symbolic', IMO. I would reject the idea that baptism and communion are merely symbols, but it's pretty hard to deny that they do have very strong symbolic value, as an addition to their main sacramental purposes.

As far as what a means of grace is, the Wikipedia article seems to be more or less correct - that the Methodist view is that said means are the grace imparted through sacraments and those things which God uses to quicken, strengthen, and confirm faith.

Faith, in the Lutheran (we, of course, would argue it's Biblical too) way of thinking, is not a conscious decision but a gift of God. This is huge in how we think about baptism and the Lord's Super. I'm not sure about Methodists, but it seems in the American non-denominational churches, the focus on baptism as a symbol stems from their perception as these sacraments being something that we do - a good work, perhaps. Therefore it's completely foreign to them how anyone could think of Baptism or Communion creating or strengthening a saving faith.
It's both a gift and something of intellectual assent. Only God can save or stir our hearts to redemption, and the sacraments are presented exactly as something that God does rather than something we do. Our growth in faith (or sanctification) after the act of conversion is seen as something in which there is a necessary cooperation between God and Man.

This may get more into the views about soteriology, as Methodism is perhaps the singlemost definitive Arminian (or more precisely, Wesleyan-Arminian) tradition. My understanding of the Lutheran view is that it differs from Calvinism on pretty much the same points that Arminianism does, but the ways it differs is not necessarily the same. So this may have to do with that.

Since it will come up, the Methodist view of grace is one of the central things about it, and makes distinctions between Prevenient, Justifying, and Sanctifying.

Lutherans would hearily agree that good works don't save. What we do believe is that God can use any means to work saving faith in us, and that includes his Word, Baptism and Holy Communion. Because it's God creating faith and not our own intellectual decision, it's perfectly right to expect that God can create saving faith through baptism in a baby, or a person with severe retardation or a disabled stroke victim or anyone without the intellectual brain power to make a decision for Christ. So, in the Lutheran view I would agrue that baptism and communion are infinitely more valuable than they are to those with the symbolic view. Baptism and communion are so much more than intellectual excercises, but a freely given gift of God where work is done in our hearts.

I'm curious what the Methodist view is. You believe that babies should be baptized, but it seems as though you do not think that God can work in us without using the mechanism of our intellect. So I'm wondering what baptism does for babies then.
There is an undercurrent that baptism is the act which removes the stain of Original Sin on the soul and allows for Man's free will to come into effect and seek God. The issue - and this is where Methodism gets kind of muddy - is that the concept of prevenient grace does pretty much the same thing, and said grace is recognized as being given unconditionally to all. This is why I mentioned the part about baptism also being seen as a reflection of that grace, even if the view is that baptism is not what actually imparts prevenient grace, even though - as a sacrament - it is held that baptism does impart grace.

As white dove also noted, the concept of a threshold of accountability plays into it as well. That's not a stated position in the UMC, as far as I'm aware, but it is common to see the idea expressed as God's mercy given to those not able to make that conscious effort.


To be absolutely honest, though, it gets complicated because while Methodism originated in the Church of England and broke away under mainly political pressure (i.e. the American Revolution), it sometimes has a bit of difficulty over whether it wants to be more Anglican or more Protestant. So you'll find some complicated emotions and responses over how to properly understand things like whether baptism removes Original Sin or whether that's already been taken care of due to prevenient grace, or so on. Granted, I'm sure that the official positions have these things sorted out, but Methodism is often one of the least understood traditions in Protestantism, for those outside of it and many times even for those inside of it. The 200+ year separation from Anglicanism has also lead to inevitable drift in some areas, and this drift is typically not very uniform.
 
Upvote 0