createdtoworship
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Is Jesus God? Or The Son of God (Created by God)? What Do You Believe?
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Simonline
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Yes, because God as God is incapable of finite existence just as Man as Man is incapable of Infinite Existence...That's NOT rocket science?!
You seem utterly incapable of conceiving of the fact that the Person Who Exists primarily as Infinite is also capable of existence that is finite whilst the person who exists primarily as finite is incapable of existence as anything other than finite (in other words Infinite Existence can by it's very nature (because it is Absolute) include relative existence that is finite whilst finite existence cannot by its very nature (because it is relative) include Absolute Existence that is Infinite).
The Existence of the SON is primarily Absolutely Infinite [Divine Creator YHWH] but He has also come into existence in a secondary sense as relatively finite [human creature Jesus of Nazareth] whilst remaining in His Primary Existence as Absolute Infinite Divine Creator.
Whilst the Person is ALWAYS ONE AND THE SAME the TWO WAYS in which that ONE PERSON Exists are ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT from one another whilst NOT being SEPARATE from one another otherwise that would destroy the fundamental unity of the ONE PERSON.
Simonline.
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[SIZE=+1]John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2 this one was in the beginning with God; 3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION
This statement by John is profoundly mystical for it introduces two concepts. Most Christians recognize the part where Christ is introduced as being divine and as the Creator God. What few recognize is that the very concept of a beginning is a hint of a deep spiritual truth. What is commonly recognized as reality had a beginning. The part of God that created had a beginning. This beginning was the Word. The subtle truth that this verse also reveals is that there is a beginningless uncreated God. What we recognize as Christ is the personal God that before the beginning was a meaningless concept. In other words, before there was a creation, there was no Personal God, only the Transcendent Uncreate Absolute was. [/SIZE]
This statement by John is profoundly mystical for it introduces two concepts. Most Christians recognize the part where Christ is introduced as being divine and as the Creator God. What few recognize is that the very concept of a beginning is a hint of a deep spiritual truth. What is commonly recognized as reality had a beginning. The part of God that created had a beginning. This beginning was the Word. The subtle truth that this verse also reveals is that there is a beginningless uncreated God. What we recognize as Christ is the personal God that before the beginning was a meaningless concept. In other words, before there was a creation, there was no Personal God, only the Transcendent Uncreate Absolute was. [/SIZE]
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Simonline
The Inquisitor
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?! The death of Man is the Divine punishment for our wilful disobedience of our Divine Creator NOT the means by which Man attains Divinity?!
Furthermore, God did not have to do anything. He was quite within His Absolute Right to do absolutely nothing and send us all to Perdition wholesale?! The fact that some of us are redeemed is exclusively down to God's grace.
The human creature Jesus of Nazareth, is NOT, NEVER has been and NEVER will be the Divine Creator, YHWH (nor do the Scriptures teach that He is). What the Scriptures actually teach is that the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator YHWH (our true and only saviour (Isa.43:10-13; Titus.2:13)) and it is the Absolute Divine Creator Who is being worshipped in the Person of the Son incarnate as the Messiah/Christ and NOT the relative human creature since, from an authentic Judeo-Christian perspective, the worship of anything other than the Absolute Divine Creator is idolatry and therefore sinful.
Furthermore, the Messiah is absolutely NOT 'God's son in the sense that human beings are all sons of God' since His Sonship is of the same Nature as that of His Father (Jn.10:30) whereas our sonship is simply by means of adoption (Jn.1:12-13) c.f. Jn.20:17(b).
You are correct is declaring that the Messiah/Christ is the Divine Creator but, like most Christians, you are completely confusing His TWO distinct (but NOT separate) modes of existence.
Simonline.
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Simonline
The Inquisitor
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Utter rubbish (not to mention blasphemous)!
The 'Begining' in Jn.1:1 refers to the Creation NOT to the One Who brought the Creation into existence ex nihilo (from nothing) i.e. the Word. Since the Scriptures also refer to God (including the Word) as being Eternal (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8,17; 21:6; 22:13) then the reference to the 'Begining' (Jn.1:1) CANNOT refer to God but MUST refer to the Creation.
Apart from reading Christian theology back into historical Scripture [the Son did NOT exist as the Incarnate Messiah/Christ when the Creation was first brought into existence (Gen.1-2). He only existed as the Divine Creator/Word - which is EXACTLY what the apostle John declares in his very first verse] a classic case of eisegesis (i.e. reading into Scripture what isn't actually there but what we would like to be there in order to substantiate our [false] argument) the Truth is that the ETERNAL and IMMUTABLE Divine Creator Exists as both INFINITE AND PERSONAL.
If, prior to the Creation, there was no Personal God then by definition there was no Creation and we are not having this debate because only the mentally insane believe that the Creation brought itself into existence?!
Simonline.
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Superfast
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Red A,B,and C were inserted by me in your quote for clarification. So you have said,Simonline said:
A = B, A = C, but A doesn't equal B.
Obviously you failed algebra. Which is why your doctrine doesn't hold water, it makes no sense. If A = B, And A = C, then (according to the rules of algebra) A = C. you defy the rules of simple algebra and call me a mindless idiot because of it.
I have conceptualized your beliefs . Admitedly it was very hard to put in a nutshell because it is so far from rational thinking, and so convoluted, and so dependent upon your special definitions for words. And so contrary to the simple rules of math. I put it in a nutshell with my last response to you.Simonline said:
Superfast said:
Another person you dealt with characterized it as being gobbledy goop. It is extremely hard to make any kind of sense out of your statements.
your just saying the person of the son exists as a spirit and a human being and the spirit and human being aren't seperate from one another. Which equates toSimonline said:
A = B + C, and A = B and A = C. Which is more failed algebra on your part.
It is just illogical nonsense . you don't say anything that makes any kind of sense and think I am a mindless idiot cause I don't buy your (A = B, A = C, but B doesn't equal C). or your( A = B + C, and A = B, A = C.)faulty algebra.
You haven't solved the fundamental problem with saying that Jesus is god and YHWH is god and there is only one god. Really all you have done is say Jesus is God and YHWH is god and there is only one god, and that makes sense because faulty algebra proves it and faulty albebra proves it because God can do anything even faulty algebra. and anyone who doesn't accept your faulty algebra proofs is a mindless idiot according to you.
Personally I don't think God would have any problem totally acing any algebra exam.
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Superfast
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I have the bible to understand god with. And I have found that God never makes nonsensical statements. I have found that god's word is not nonsensical but always without exception makes sense, because God is trying to tell us something not confuse us. Obviously you see it other wise.God can't be understood by an algebraic equation though.
We need a "god scale"
Do we have one?
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Simonline
The Inquisitor
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Except that we're talking about metyaphysics (something that seems to be completely beyond you) and not algebra?!
The Infinite can encompass the finite but the finite cannot encompass the Infinite. It is for this reason that the Infinite Divine Person can also exist as a finite human person whilst remaining in existence as an Infinite Divine Person but a finite human person cannot also exist as an Infinite Divine Person if he isn't already an Infinite Divine Person...hardly rocket science?!
I doubt that very much.
There is nothing irrational about Judeo-Christian theolgy. It may be irregular but it is definitely not irrational, neither is it convoluted or dependent upon 'special' definitions (though it is dependent upon correct and very precise definitions). The definitions are no different in a theological context than they are in a non-theological context. That's because truth is always the same in whatever context it finds itself.
Like I said. YHWH is NOT a finite mathematical formula?!
Actually it was I who used the term gobbledy [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in relation to something else. I am not saying that Judeo-Christian theology is childsplay, far from it. But whilst it is not always easy to comprehend it is neither irrational or nonsense.
Not 'a spirit' (i.e. one amongst many) just 'Spirit' since YHWH is unique and has no equal. The Person of the Son simultaneously exists as Infinite Spirit (Jn.4:24) and as a finite human creature (body, soul and spirit). How He does this I have no idea. I simply believe the Divine Revelation (Scripture) that says that He does.
Stop thinking of YHWH as a finite mathematical formula! YHWH is an Infinite-Personal Entity Who also happens to exist as Tri-Personal (i.e. as 'Trinity'). YHWH is completely unconventional and irregular (by His Own admission (Isa.40:12-31; 46:5)) but He is definitely NOT illogical (though He is also infinitely beyond (not against) the limitations of human logic).
OK Let me put it in non-algebraic terms for you. The Person of the Son Exists as Infinite Divine Creator. The Person of the Son exists as finite human creature but this does NOT mean that existence as Infinite Divine Creator is the same as existence as finite human creature (or that all finite human creatures are also Infinite Divine Creator which, according to your 'algebraic' logic is also true?!). Yet the Divine Revelation that is Scripture (which trumps ALL human arguments) declares that the Person of the Son Exists both as Infinite Divine Creator and, by means of the Incarnation, as finite human creature. This is why orthodox Judeo-Christinity absolutely insists that this is the case and that anyone who denies this is to be denounced and excommunicated as a heretic, a son or daughter of Perdition.
There is NO fundamental problem because the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is NOT Divine. Jesus of Nazareth is the human [NOT Divine] incarnation of the Divine Creator, YHWH.
As Infinite Divine Creator the nature of the Son IS Divine but is NOT human.
As finite human creature the nature of the Son IS human but is NOT Divine
So you're illiterate as well as brainless because anyone who can read can see that what I have written is the exact opposite of what you have written here?! I have always denied that Jesus of Nazareth is God because absolutely nowhere do the Judeo-Christian Scriptures declare that the finite human creature and the Infinite Divine Creator are one and the same (?! an absurd metaphysical impossibility) and I defy absolutely anyone including YHWH Himself to prove me wrong?!
Judeo-Christianity teaches that in order for the Son to incarnate as a finite human creature He has to come into existence by means of a secondary finite human nature that is completely distinct from His Primary Infinite Divine Nature. This is known as the hypostatic union (the uniting together of TWO (distinct but NOT separate (otherwise it would destroy the unity of the Person)) NATURES in ONE PERSON. In this way the Son is able to simultaneously exist as both Infinite Divine Creator and finite human creature but the Son's secondary existence as a finite human creature is NOT the same as His Primary Existence as the Infinite Divine Creator!
Unlike you in a Judeo-Christian theology/metaphysics exam?!
Simonline.
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Simonline
The Inquisitor
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That's because you choose to ignore the parts that are difficult or which don't easily conform to your two-dimensional pre-conception of God?!
If/when you ever decide to believe in the God of the Bible (in accordance with the entire Divine Revelation and not just carefully selected parts of it) you will discover that He is far from simplistic and two-dimensional.
Simonline.
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Yeshua's Brother
Redeemed Through The Grace Of Yeshua
I believe that Yeshua understood himself to be separate from the God of Abraham, but that he was the beloved Son of God and when he ascended to Heaven me made a new Covenant based on the Abramic covenant of grace. He fulfilled humanity's end of the covenant through his death on the cross.
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Superfast
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You're asking yourself if we are talking about metaphysics.Simonline said:
No, it's illogic supremo.Simonline said:
Metaphysics is just a term people use to call their nonsensical contradictory, and illogical statements.
All you’ve said with your infinite/finite argument is that God can be a human but the human he becomes isn’t god.
You just call god , infinite, and the man Christ Jesus you call finite. It’s just your way of hiding the fact that all you’ve said is that god can be a man but the man he becomes isn’t god, which is nonsensical metaphysics.
Simonline said:
one example of your phoney definitions is when you call a nature a human.
There are multitudes of others.
Simonline said:
Another example of your special definitions of words is Person of the son, the son, Jesus, and Christ. To you Christ means god, Jesus means a man, the son means a human, Person of the son means god and man. To me and anyone else not discussing trinity, including Trinitarians, Jesus, Person of the son, the son, and Christ all refer to the man Christ Jesus.
Simonline said:
you're just saying that the person of the son (whatever kind of being that is) eixists 2 ways as a spirit and a human being. which doesn't explain the illogic of claiming that one individual is 2 individuals.Simonline said:
Simonline said:
Heretic is just a term of slander used to prove trinity. In times past the inquisition was used to prove trinity, but nowadays that isn't allowed so all you're left with is calling us heretics.
you don't know what incarnation means. It means become flesh. He incarnated means he became flesh. I think you have no meaning for the word incarnation which aids you greatly in your attempt at confusion,Simonline said:
Simonline said:
The fundamental problem is you Trinitarians have named too many individuals as being the one true god, you think you have solved the problem by calling Jesus A man when you use the word Jesus, and calling him God when you use the term Christ, and calling him God and man when you used the term person of the son. But that doesn’t solve the problem. It’s just a shell game you play.
the answer to both of your questions is No. . .Simonline said:
You're asking yourself if you defy anyone to prove you wrong. And you're asking yourself if you have denied that Jesus is God. Only you can answer the question you asked yourself.Simonline said:
Well I ain’t the sharpest knife in the kitchen but I’m not the dullest one either. but even if i am it doesn't prove what I have said is wrong.Simonline said:
simonline said:
I’m sure Id flunk a southern Baptist bible college exam on the subject of Trinity, but I’m glad of that.simonline said:
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he-man
he-man
Sorry, but he did not make a new Covenant based on the Abramic covenant, the Promised Land is still in effect and His kingdom will come, here on earth, as it is in heaven.
The New Covenant is the promise of Christ to re-establish the Covenant made to Abraham.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten.
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
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TheGenuineChristian
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Three quicks passages to destroy the notion that Jesus being called 'Son of God' means he's God:
John 1:12-13, we become Sons of God yet no sane Christain will claim we become God himself.
John 11:21-27, Martha calls him "Son of God" and yet says "I know that God will give you whatever you ask him" showing that she doesn't believe that Jesus is God himself.
2 John 3, Jesus is the Father's Son. The title 'Son of God' equals 'Son of the Father.' The title iself identifies who God is and isn't, and God isn't the Son by the title 'Son of God.'
Side note: There is no such term as 'God the Son' in the New Testament because God is one person; the Father (God the Father, God our Father). Nor will you find such a title as 'God Jesus Christ' as opposed to 'Lord Jesus Christ' because the Pillars of genuine Christians, Jesus (John 17:3) John (1 John 5:20) Peter (Acts 3:13; 10:38) Paul (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10), believed that only the Father is the true God, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
I believe that whatever I believe, does not have the power to change what is.
"For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto." ~Acts of John
"For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto." ~Acts of John
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