Hard to ignore, hard to answer, worldly refutations.

SystemEngineer · Mar 25, 2011

A small collection of some of the world's hard to ignore system engineering thoughts, that are hard to answer, regarding the whys and wherefores. Are there some dunamis-powerful, persuasive, and definitive responses, that can handle the system engineering boundary conditions they outline, of a testified finite bandwidth world under the all powerful all knowing God?
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BEARING CRITERIA: [1 Corinthians 10:13.] If God never gives humans more than they can bear in temptation (3986: trial, probation, testing, being tried, temptation, calamity, affliction), as many claim, what is the criteria for judging what is borne? If a human lives, suffers, or dies, everything is borne by them, in the very definition of God's Word. For example, Hitler's supressions and concentration camps, all as the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem" is, by definition, not giving humans more than they can bear in temptation. For in such a framing of God's Word as too often taught, there is no criteria to judge God's load, for by definition God is Holy, and there is no outer frame of reference available for human judgement without God's Presence for 6000 years, as to what meets the criteria of being more than a human can bear.
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EXPONENTIAL TALENT USURY RETURNS: [Deuteronomy 23:19. Matthew 25.14-30. II Thessalonians 3:10.] God's humans gives talents to humans, and by the framing of God's parables, shows that God's humans expect exponential return on the given talents, or else have them taken away, as an apparent fair "indian giver", and given to the one who is more profitable, in a "greed is good" for God's humans in paradigm. Not any mention is made of giving talents, and having them loose the talent altogether, implicitly shows there must be an even more grave penalty for lack of profitability, for them, because the one given a talent who at least preserves it without loss in a corrupt world, has it taken away as their reward in perfect preservational protocol. Therefore, God is not a "Green" paradigm, but is an exponentially growing paradigm, of infinite return at infinite time, that consumes the cosmos-world, and subdues all nature to God's Ways. The same Good God that curses the Jews who practice usury to brother Jews. Thus, God's humans Love, expecting a return on His Love. The same shows a system engineering flaw of a finite bandwidth earth, and christian missionary fantasy, where they talk in exponential church growth, you tell two friends, they tell two, and so forth, in a Ponzi Scheme. In that model, if God was perfect to persuade and penetrate the world market at 100%, we would see a crash of the world economy, with God's People taking from unprofitables, and giving to profitables, creating a poor class, and a veritable model of Communism. For with God, Arbeit Macht Sie Frei (work sets you free), and if you don't work you don't eat, in God's Master Planned Millenial Reich, for faith withour works is dead, so John 3:16 faith in Jesus is dead by logic, also, in feature creep.
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GOD'S PERFECTION: [Catholic: God is Perfect in all His Ways, Infallible and Inerrant.] But an example of The Perfection of God, is that The All Knowing All Powerful Infallible Inerrant Creator, Creating all things for His Planned Pleasure, Has Created 100% perfectly sinful corrupt mere humans, every one, made from His Perfect Infallable Inerrant Intelligently Designed Master Plan, that forced His Free Will upon them that permits their corruption, and, thus, Justifies His Judgement, on His Little Children, who are forced to freely choose His Convicting Enslaving Only Love, in One Way Only Way. Evidenced in 70 billion dead humans integral estimated through history, and 7 billion humans destined for Loving God's Promised Death, among all of God's Promises. For example, As a system engineer, if I created an immortal walking robot with Free Will, I know that the robot is capable of failing a criteria of perfect obedience for eternal time, in free will, according to Murphy's Law - but All Knowing Infallible Inerrant God somehow doesn't, and even permits Satan to walk the garden, on top of that.
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GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE: [Non-denominational evangelical: Under John 3:16, God's Love is unconditional.] The unconditional love of God is, in effect, God telling humanity under no uncertain terms, while under the threat of physical death, and ultimate utter soul destruction for not picking Him over Infidels, is implicitly used to garner their love if death is undesirable, that if they don't choose to love The One True God as their one and only certain choice, that God will utterly destroy their soul He Created after their physical death. In other words, love God unconditionally, or else be ultimately destroyed. And sometimes people say, with Free Will, one is all ways free to go to hell, which is Free Will Choice, and not an ultimatum to follow the One Only True God.
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THE TRUE ACCUSER: [Non-denominational: Romans 3:23. Revelation 20:11-14.] While Satan may destroy the body, only God can destroy the soul, after physical death. And while Satan may accuse the followers of God, the truth is God has accused all humans as sinners worthy of death, as the True Judge. And we know every human can be categorized, by God's Word, as sinner. Not exactly accusation, but truth in His Judgement, for the free will God gave them.
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THE ALL KNOWING NEEDS PHYSICAL TRIALS: [Acts 1:24. James 2:26. II Thessalonians 2. Matthew 24:23. Mark 13:6,14,21-22.] God, the All Powerful All Knowing Creator and Cardio Knower of humans, must trial and make suffer humans, because God does not know the depths of our love, except under material interface physical proof and assessment constraints on God's Knowledge, for The All Knowing God. For humans having faith in God is insufficient for God, requiring human suffering and trials and works for God to Know the human heart, with The All Knowing God, constrained to physical tests of human spirit, like a Doubting Thomas, Jew, Sadducee, Pharisee seeking a proof. God even Ordains humans who are literally blind, or severely sick, or illiterate over many ages of history, who must put their faith in God, through their faith placed in human teachers, who they must rely on to see The Word, God's Love Letter to humanity, with God absent negligent in spirit. God, Who Ordains infidel false gods, even permitting the sending in All Knowledge, His Intelligently Designed Created Satan transfigured as Christ in the apocalypse, with humans saying lo Chist is here or lo Christ is there, but believe them not, and with God blinding them so they might be damned and believe a lie. A God so Unsearchable in His Ways, that He Creates the most complex court case of the cosmos, with His Delayed Action Modular Delay Virus apocalypse, so that we know of His Majesty, and can be absolutely certain in the uncertainty of the Infallible Inerrant Ordained cosmos, that God is not the least bit unfair, in His Convicting Way to Christ.
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THE ENGINEERED PERFECT OBEDIENCE HUMAN EXPERIMENT: [Genesis] God, the Master Engineer, created humans perfect and immortal, and placed them in a perfect garden, expecting eternal obedience, having given them Free Will. And God, who in All Knowledge, controls the movements of His Intellgiently Designed Satan, permitted Satan to walk the garden, tempt Eve, and cause the downfall of humanity, thus marked as sinful in Original Sin with their God, through their own God Given Free Will, tempted beyond His First Law, so that they are made more succeptible to experiment failure, in their given task and test of eternal perfect obedience to God. Would humans have fallen, if longsuffering patient God did not permit Satan to walk the garden to hasten His Experimental Test of humans, if God simply tested humans in longsuffering patience to the criteria of failure mode to The Law? And though human engineers know in Murphy's Law, that any system that has the capability to fail, will fail in infinite time, we must know that God's ways are human-apologetic, and magical mystery unsearchable unfathomable Good, are so special and different, for God lives by a different law from His Created human experiment. The Good God, the Creator of all things through His Word, God Intelligently Designed humans given Free Will, from which sin and death were produced, as well as God Intelligently Designed Satan with Free Will. The Good Tree, from which Good and Evil Fruits arise, for not a thing was created, except through Him. But The Creator of All Things, in All Knowledge and All Power, is not responsible for what He Creates, because God gave humans His Free Will, and so humans are responsible for evil, not God, leaving God Holy and Blameless. For while humans are ultimately responsible for what they do, God is not, in His Master Plan. Because God is special and set aside from His Creation. And because, in Free Will over infinite time, if something can go wrong, it will go wrong, God is Inerrantly Justified in blaming humanity as sinful in THEIR Original Sin and ensuing deaths, trials, and tests, by God, who made the Cosmic Plan Human Experiment for His Pleasure. Like an All Powerful All Knowing system engineer, creating a robot with free will capable of failing in All Knowledge analysis, saying if the robot fails to be perfect eternally, that it is not my responsibility that it failed, it is the robot's sin and responsibility, and, therefore, I AM holy and blameless.
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PRIDEFUL GAMBLING GOD: [Job] In Job, we see God was Willfully Prideful in Job in front of Satan's face, so Satan asked God for a bet on Job's Faith, and God Willfully Accepted Satan's bet, and allowed Satan to destroy Job's livelyhood. Furthermore, at the end, God asks Cattle Farmer Job, if Job remembered the differential equations that lay the heavens in their place, and Job had to fall on his knees and say no, with God giving Job replacement family deemed just as good as the originals, for replacements are justified.
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CHILDREN OF MEN, INSTRUMENT OF GOD: [System engineering. Isaiah 64:6. Zechariah 1. Revelation 6:1-8] God's Cosmos is a system reliant on the context of what God views as His Little Children, sinful filthy rags when most righteous, as the medium of God's Wars in Powers and Principalities, of four horns, in religion, politics, economics, education to truth, to scatter humans, for God's Pleasure, as the purpose for God's Creation of the cosmos and humanity, in a veritable Prison Planet system with all humans placed under Universal Death Sentnce, to garner their love of Him, as if God were constrained by forces greater than His All Power and All Knowledge, Intelligently Designing the cosmos with God endowed Free Will humans, requiring His Creation of Death, where Death never existed before Him, to make humanity love Him who is complete and perfect by Himself, without humanity in the first place. For with God, the ends justify the means, and God is special compared to man, where the ends do not justify the means, for God follows a different law from humans.
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ABSENT NEGLIGENT BLIND FAITH: [System engineering issues. Leviticus 20:2.] God, the All Powerful All Knowing All things are possible with Him Greatest Teacher Guide Merciful Sustainer, God, absent neglectfully left the world of certifyable convicted sinner humans, left in the marginal position of being among numerous infidel strange god worshiping humans, creating different infidel faiths, and all Ordained in God's Master Plan in place to teach humanity of God, by these corrupt and corrupting humans. So much corrupt, that God was accomplice murdered by Kenite corrupted Jews usurped by Rome, while letting a murderer go, Just as God Ordained in His Plan, in child sacrifice akin to Moleck, in His Son, Jesus. For God so loved the world, that He sent His Only Begotten Son for Child Sacrifice, for we are all His little children, so that whosoever believes on Him, would not recieve the death for free will sin that they so truly deserve, but have everlasting life in His penal substition, only after they die in this world, with humans in the state of accepting only Christ unmistakeably while still alive, in the glass darkly sighted little children neglectfully abandonned by the Master Teacher of The World in presence, and having choosen rightly, among the numerous Master Planned Ordained Infidel god worshipping human stumbling blocks, that are not true gods but mere Infidel "religion" lifestyle choices like Mormon, Adventist, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, et cetera, for only the Chrisitian God is the One True Way of Reality, and not a mere religion or tradition of human's false gods. The All Powerful Creator of the universe, leaving humans alone, leaving behind only His Letter in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, behind in His Place. All Knowing God playing with humans like a father dangling a child on a balcony, but in God's Case, dangling humans through His Promised physical body universal death sentence, with life after bodily death also Promised, with God having created Death and Satan, Himself, that did not exist before He made the cosmos with the humanity that He Gave Free Will.
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JUDGE-MEANT DEI: [2 Corinthians 13:5. 1 Corinthians 2:15, 4:3, 6:2. Matthew 7:1, 10:14. Mark 6:11. Luke 6:37, 9:5, 10:10-12. 2 John 1:10-11. Revelation 19:20-21, 20:11-15.] God says humans are not to judge humans. The saints of God will judge the world. For Paul does not judge himself, but it is God Who Judges. For humans are to judge humans, and shake the dust off their feet and leave infidels, and to not even bid those humans, who carry not the whole doctrine, God Speed, for they become partakers of their evil deeds. For God will judge the living and dead, from the book of life, for their names.

Soulgazer · Mar 25, 2011

The most popular forms of Christianity, just don't work, as they are all based on catholicism, (that's with a small "c", which attempts to combine two wholly different teachings into a third). There is just no way to reconcile the two separate gods portrayed without indulging in spiritual dishonesty.

SystemEngineer · Mar 25, 2011

Soulgazer said:
The most popular forms of Christianity, just don't work, as they are all based on catholicism, (that's with a small "c", which attempts to combine two wholly different teachings into a third). There is just no way to reconcile the two separate gods portrayed without indulging in spiritual dishonesty.

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I have had a great fear of that, since I was a small child, though I did cherry pick verses out of The Bible of love, peace, charity, honesty, and such positive attributes, to try and base my life on, as best as I can. However, that is merely philosophy, that many peaceful religions have, but philosphy, often without Jesus and God. They work, but I see systems engineering issues for The One True God concept, that most don't want to know about, in milk, and unsuitable for the meat of the word, to become unresponsive in many places, to my chagrin, and finite thinking capacity.
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Another issue, is that an unfaithful christianity creates divisions, in the "economic-philosophical racism" that generates denominations from the early historial strong Catholic Root in Rome-Europe, branching into Protestant, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, non-denominational and so forth, that naturally arise among His Humans, in system evolution. The major issue, being, if God's One Way *IS* One, why is it bifurcated at all in the world, to begin with, causing the natural God Intelligent Designed Radiation Leakage in meaning, causing such worldly meltdowns, of the nuclear word particle reactions, in His Master Plan, since the beginning of time?
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By the way, what are the two separate gods, that you refer to? I AM unfamiliar with that concept, short of two of the three in Trinity. Is that the Perfect God of the imperfect manifested material cosmos world, and the Perfect God of the Perfect Ideals, that are not taught enough by humans response-able for its transmission in many cases, like illiterate europe of the Dark Ages?
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Thanks for the response.

Soulgazer · Mar 25, 2011

SystemEngineer said:
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I have had a great fear of that, since I was a small child, though I did cherry pick verses out of The Bible of love, peace, charity, honesty, and such positive attributes, to try and base my life on, as best as I can. However, that is merely philosophy, that many peaceful religions have, but philosphy, often without Jesus and God. They work, but I see systems engineering issues for The One True God concept, that most don't want to know about, in milk, and unsuitable for the meat of the word, to become unresponsive in many places, to my chagrin, and finite thinking capacity.
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Another issue, is that an unfaithful christianity creates divisions, in the "economic-philosophical racism" that generates denominations from the early historial strong Catholic Root in Rome-Europe, branching into Protestant, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, non-denominational and so forth, that naturally arise among His Humans, in system evolution. The major issue, being, if God's One Way *IS* One, why is it bifurcated at all in the world, to begin with, causing the natural God Intelligent Designed Radiation Leakage in meaning, causing such worldly meltdowns, of the nuclear word particle reactions, in His Master Plan, since the beginning of time?
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By the way, what are the two separate gods, that you refer to? I AM unfamiliar with that concept, short of two of the three in Trinity. Is that the Perfect God of the imperfect manifested material cosmos world, and the Perfect God of the Perfect Ideals, that are not taught enough by humans response-able for its transmission in many cases, like illiterate europe of the Dark Ages?
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Thanks for the response.

(1)In the Judeo system, Christ came as an extension of what came before. It is necessary to become Jewish before one can become Christian. In the Judeo system, God is Creator and ruler of the world. There is not much difference between this system and islam, which was an attempt to revive it, with another "prophet". God is external, and seeks servants.
(2)In the Pauline system, Christ replaces what came before. In the Pauline system, a lesser (insane) creator god rules the world, and Jesus fulfilled that god's prophesies while at the same time actually coming from a Higher unknown God. God is internal, and is a servant, and the system uses depth psychology extensively.

The catholic sect started around 130 AD sought to combine the two into one overarching concept--- but it runs into problems. By trying to erase the distinctions between the two radically different approaches, we wind up with thirty thousand denominations all trying to make the catholic system work for them.
Catholicism became Law around 340AD, and the two preceding religions were phased out by the sixth century. The scriptures went through a harmonization phase, though imperfect--- there are many places where one can encounter unedited references to either of the preceding religions; hence the need to "cherry pick".

Son of Zadok · Mar 25, 2011

How remarkably pleasant it is to have a fellow engineer posting. It is easy to recognize your analytical thinking in addressing simple religious truths. I will outline some thoughts:

1. How is it that every other inferior being that can possibly exist is able to reproduce others of its own “kind” but an all knowing, all powerful G-d does not?
This leaves us with few options. Ether G-d cannot or will not. If he cannot then he is not really all powerful. If he will not then he is not “good”.
There is another possibility and that is that G-d can and does replicate himself in bringing about other G-ds. He does so by creating beings in his image and likeness and then preparing them to become “one” with him.

2. The final test or trial. It is the ultimate confrontation between good and evil under such circumstance that it is impossible to succeed by one’s self without divine intervention. Under the trial, the neophyte G-d is stripped of “knowledge” and must navigate by faith - not knowing for sure. Their choices cannot be completely understood and therefore within justice there must also be a possibility to learn and a possibly to alter behavior based on learning. Then having learned good and evil by experience and under full liberty of choice the neophyte chooses (final judgment) with full understanding and knowledge - good or evil. If the choice is good they will finally become all that encompasses good; which is the definition of G-d. If the choice is evil by becoming self serving to various degrees, then they, by definition cannot be G-dly.

3. By becoming a participant in the fall man was excommunicated from the society of G-ds that defines heaven. This must be to grant experience with both good and evil - for evil cannot be tolerated in heaven. As a fallen entity man, by the mercy of G-d was granted one and only one mediator G-d (Jesus Christ) that would be responsible for all evil committed during a trial of enviable failure and taste of evil and the consequences of evil as well as good. Thus the mediator G-d under justice must redeem all sins of the fallen - then with knowledge a final choice is made.

There is more - perhaps we can continue this someday.
Son of Zadok

SystemEngineer · Mar 27, 2011

Soulgazer said:
(1)In the Judeo system, Christ came as an extension of what came before. It is necessary to become Jewish before one can become Christian. In the Judeo system, God is Creator and ruler of the world. There is not much difference between this system and islam, which was an attempt to revive it, with another "prophet". God is external, and seeks servants.
(2)In the Pauline system, Christ replaces what came before. In the Pauline system, a lesser (insane) creator god rules the world, and Jesus fulfilled that god's prophesies while at the same time actually coming from a Higher unknown God. God is internal, and is a servant, and the system uses depth psychology extensively.

The catholic sect started around 130 AD sought to combine the two into one overarching concept--- but it runs into problems. By trying to erase the distinctions between the two radically different approaches, we wind up with thirty thousand denominations all trying to make the catholic system work for them.
Catholicism became Law around 340AD, and the two preceding religions were phased out by the sixth century. The scriptures went through a harmonization phase, though imperfect --- there are many places where one can encounter unedited references to either of the preceding religions; hence the need to "cherry pick".

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Hm, I was unfamiliar with the two formulations you present - Judeo and Pauline. From historical and Biblical references, I understand that Jesus came to manifest salvation itself, made separate from the Law and Jewish sin sacrifice, to graft in Jews and Gentiles, both, you see in Romans 11:22-23 and Hebrews 10:18, for example. Of course, this is post Nicene Council Canon scripture unification understanding. And it in no way requires one to be a Jew before one is a Christian, for even the Gentiles are directly grafted into God's salvation. So, in that case, it appears the Judeo system you describe, started with its own fatal self-reference flaw. Additionally, the Catholic synthesis you describe seems erroneous. The numerous denominations originate from the previous denominational abuses of humans, causing separations and veils of division. Another cause of denominationalism, arises in interpretation differences causing philosophical racisms between the differences of interpretation. Like Baptists saying one must be baptized to be saved, or Calvinist saying one must have works to be saved for faith without works is dead so faith in Jesus is dead without works by logic extension, as I mention in this thread in post #1. And the fundamental issue being that God's Word is in some sense Dead, in that it cannot speak live to humans, for if it does, than God is manufacturing denominational veils of division, through what God says through numerous humans claiming to have His Spirit to interpret, who all claim to be right, and set aside. And if you believe God speaks through Jim Jones, David Koresh, Robert Tilton, Peter Popov, Orel Robert, or Benny Hinn, then we have numerous humans to choose from to have faith in, who have "Faith" as messengers of God, who are separate, and not unmistakeable, with teacher-God invisible, absent, and negligent. But then God warns to beware of hypocrite teachers, in His extremely long absense.
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I can understand the concept of an Internal God, from your Pauline abstract. However, in science, it seems to be a form of Human Spirit. In Quantum Physics, wavefunctions not only focus when interacting through information exchange (measurement), but there is a component of Entanglement, where wavefunctions share information, and measuring one wavefunction alters the entangled wavefunctions elsewhere, infinitely faster than light, or instantaneously. And in the structure of neurons and body, the otherwise Reductionist Wavefunctions, also form a holisitc unity in the sense of Mutual Wavefunction Quantum Entanglement Systems, where every interaction of the body with the world, creates numerous instantaneous changes of the system entanglements, producing the sense and space of perception - The Human Spirit. For example, a human with sight notes a simultaneous, spatial, and characterisitc field of measurements - seen all at once, sensed spread about in a perceptual space, and containing colors and intensities of light.
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However, a Human Spirit, internal to the systemic holistic structure of the body, is not definitively equivalent to God, without making that Pauline abstract, a statement that God is equivalent to Quantum Physics Mutual Wavefunction Entanglement Systems, and that we know that only Humans have this, and know that lower life forms like animals do not have that, that animals merely process independent Reductionist atoms, that are without a holistic spirit, and merely collect data and imitate knowledge in Darwinian survival biophysics. For that matter, in science, there is no uncertain proof that another human has any holistic spirit, for it cannot be measured or shared, as the world appears to testify in science, that to believe that another human has any spirit at all, and is not a "zombie" reductionist processor of monkey see monkey do Darwianian Meme Survival that even a text processing computer might do, is to place faith in humans, and not God. This definitely goes against Christian Teachings in many ways, to put one's blind faith in humans as having spirit, with the teacher-creator-God immanently invisible, absent, and negligent. It is almost like saying, for the extreme example, that in a theater, by projecting a movie on a screen, that makes the screen "see" the movie, because the screen is endowed with a Mutual Wavefunction Entanglement System, just like a human with perceptual human spirit. Far too Hindu, for my personal knowledge.
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The line, you mention, God needs servants, all sounds like a 2001-A Space Odyssey Monolith Rock that lands on an alien planet, of infinite computation capacity, but on a finite bandwidth earth. And is no apparent form of creator of the cosmos and life, except in mere metaphorical creator, through its computer influence of the finite bandwidth primates found on the planet. But definitely NOT the Catholic, or Fundamentalist Christian, that seem to lie about God's abilities, and puts God on a pedistal, where God is only bound to fall and fail expectations, for the human lies propagated onto God's Image.
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The cherry picking issue, is also deep in this, because I'm sure we have all heard human pastors using this cherry picking to depricate humans, for putting too much Hope on God's Abilities, and human greeds for His Positive Promises, who cherry pick verses to be racist, overly Hopeful, or mere psychologically manipulative against the sheep and cherry pickers, to protect their own denominational self interests, in the One Body's many denomination's auto-racism. If you note, even I cherry picked the positive attributes of God, to found life, but see the fallen earth that a Catholic-Fundamentalist God created and manifested imperfectly, as many others completely ignore the apparent negative, wrathful, vengeful attributes of the Good God over humans, and wish to stay in the milk, alone, unsuitable for the strong meat.
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[SIGHS] So many Biblical Systems' Self Referential Paradoxes, and not enough Revelations, in the Concealments of God, put back behind a Veil of separation that was sewn back up, that Jesus only Rented.
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Good talk. Any comments on Egyptian Gnostic teachings that might shed more light on the self referential paradoxes, that do not lead to an "insane" creator?
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SystemEngineer · Mar 27, 2011

Son of Zadok said:
1. How is it that every other inferior being that can possibly exist is able to reproduce others of its own "kind" but an all knowing, all powerful G-d does not? This leaves us with few options. Ether G-d cannot or will not. If he cannot then he is not really all powerful. If he will not then he is not good. There is another possibility and that is that G-d can and does replicate himself in bringing about other G-ds. He does so by creating beings in his image and likeness and then preparing them to become one with him.
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2. The final test or trial. It is the ultimate confrontation between good and evil under such circumstance that it is impossible to succeed by ones self without divine intervention. Under the trial, the neophyte G-d is stripped of knowledge and must navigate by faith - not knowing for sure. Their choices cannot be completely understood and therefore within justice there must also be a possibility to learn and a possibly to alter behavior based on learning. Then having learned good and evil by experience and under full liberty of choice the neophyte chooses (final judgment) with full understanding and knowledge - good or evil. If the choice is good they will finally become all that encompasses good; which is the definition of G-d. If the choice is evil by becoming self serving to various degrees, then they, by definition cannot be G-dly.
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3. By becoming a participant in the fall man was excommunicated from the society of G-ds that defines heaven. This must be to grant experience with both good and evil - for evil cannot be tolerated in heaven. As a fallen entity man, by the mercy of G-d was granted one and only one mediator G-d (Jesus Christ) that would be responsible for all evil committed during a trial of enviable failure and taste of evil and the consequences of evil as well as good. Thus the mediator G-d under justice must redeem all sins of the fallen - then with knowledge a final choice is made.

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Your (1) does not respond to my questions. BUT I can comment that God reproducing God on the baseband universe is dangerous, as the world exemplifies in mere human formed christian denominations, and the very Other "strange god" religions that are Infidels to the Christian God, from their perspective. It requires a single system integration and management system, like an all seeing eye, or else Inter-planetary Mormon, or a Hindu Many Headed Pandemonium ensues on the baseband universe. First commandmend, not to have any other God made equal to God, even though the american state strangely divorced God from the state, and made all other gods equal to God in the Judicial eyes of the law. It is all part of God's peculiar invisible, absent, negligence of the earth-cosmos interface.
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Your (2) has an error in the perspective that we are not all Gods, or supposed to become Gods, in the New Age Hindu-Buddhist Recycling, or Mormon Interplanetary Sense. We are all ALREADY in that 6000 year trial, and we are ALREADY born from water of the woman as human children, in this prison planet world (assuming you are not an artificial intelligence agent). And why does the one God need to breed Gods, recursively, as you propose, unless God IS a finite bandwidth God attempting to terraform the cosmos, that will die at the end of time, in fire or ice. And it all is under the post #1 issue of God's [ABSENT NEGLIGENT BLIND FAITH] system, as the earth testifies. Plus how is it One Body, when you propose a fragmented body of many universes. Too many lies from the earth to begin with.
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Your (3) does not answer [GOD'S PERFECTION], [THE ALL KNOWING NEEDS PHYSICAL TRIALS], AND [THE ENGINEERED PERFECT OBEDIENCE HUMAN EXPERIMENT]. It also defines a society of Gods, that Christianity does not teach, but One God over One Body as His Whole Creation, ideally, where God saves all humans.
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What is your religion? I AM familiar with many religions - yours sounds alot like a Mormon Interplanetary God System, or Hindu-Buddhist endless finite God reproduction recycle type of system, among other possible examples. AND the major failure of your abstracts replaces one sadistic hypocrite god zeus jupiter shakespeare game with another. What good is any of that? And none of that explains what is TRUE.

Phaedron777 · Mar 27, 2011

Indeed the catholic church is not Christian, but they did slaughter millions in the name of the God, and cause many good people to turn away from the truth, having been profaned. A similar bait and switch is about to happen with our governments, religions, and the upcoming alien invasion.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom - to quote Solomon.

God is Love - to quote Christ.

Adam and Eve abandoned the uniting transcendant Love in the garden for the fruit of knowledge of both good and evil. Since then mercy and forgiveness has been rare, for everyone has their own lawful idea of good and everything else is evil and needs to die. The second Adam, Christ, brought back to us the perfection of Love.

A day for God is 1000 years for man. Adam lived about 1000 years. Indeed, he did die in the day that he ate, but some would say the death that came from the fruit was spiritual death. Christ brings us spiritual life, for the prodigal who was dead and is now alive, to quote scripture, but the actual ressurection is yet to come.

SystemEngineer · Mar 27, 2011

Phaerdon ... for a site hacker as yourself, that is not much of a response.
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For All the suffering and deaths of 70 billion humans integrated over earth history, that God you Love views that all as "the ends justify the means". The same could be said of Hitler, Hussein, and Osama Bin Laden, for love of country, and their Faiths.
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Did you even read the post? Did you even understand the post? You responded to nothing. The questions still stands.

Soulgazer · Mar 27, 2011

SystemEngineer said:
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Good talk. Any comments on Egyptian Gnostic teachings that might shed more light on the self referential paradoxes, that do not lead to an "insane" creator?
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Unfortunately not; all early Christianity with Pauline roots that has become to be known as "gnostic" has a lesser creator god, or demiurgic figure. This, like most christian teachings, is not to be taken literally, but is to be interpreted on various levels.

i.e. The "woman at the well";When she asks for "this" water, Jesus tells her to go call her husband. She says she does not have a husband. Jesus replies that she answered correctly, for she has had five husbands and the one she now has is not a husband. Now the author wasn’t interested in her marital problems, and divorce and remarriage was allowed only once anyway.

Husband is a metaphor for God; the woman is a metaphor for Israel, with a God so faithful that he keeps taking her back after she has committed adultery by going off after other gods. So who were this woman’s five husbands? They were Marduk, Nergal, Ashima, Nibhaz, and Hadad, the gods that the nation had brought with them when they were settled in the land of Samaria by the king of Assyria. Israel itself, is set as a parrable for those that try to follow the "True" god, of early christian understanding, and the five false gods representing five barriers to enlightenment, or "salvation".

I gave you that as an example of how early christian teaching is all parable within parable, meant to weed out both the fraudulent and those that harden themselves to understanding. The above example is from John, a Naasene writing, which though a Jewish sect, also shared a demiurgic figure with the Pauline christian sects.

Now when we come to the demiurgic creator figure, this signifies both what we see around us, plus how we interpret it. We all perceive things as good or evil or various shades of grey according to the "gods" that we make for ourselves. Society itself is a macrocosm of all the little "gods" we have constructed for ourselves.

Now, this is going to be a leap, and I will applaud you if you get it without more training---- The god of the old testament is set inside early christian teaching also as a barrier except to the understanding mind.... No real loving god is going to order the deaths of hundreds of thousands, nor would a real god need to(in the immortal words of Capt Kirk "why would the almighty need a starship?"), so this also represents a creation of the mind. The early christian writings play with this concept in a variety of ways.

When you combine them all together, you come up with an insane demiurgic figure, which in itself is also parrable within parrable.

The Christologic figure is the rope from outside the fishbowl that we all live in, that represents the "perfect man" (or in contemporary terms "son of man") that we all are capable of, but we end up "crucifying" as we chase after our various "gods".

The five barriers are the five senses, that correspond to five locations within our "hearts": "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

It was not supposed to be easy--- Like Dorothy in the wizard of OZ, if it's all spelled out before hand, the answer loses it's value.

On the other hand, if I can do it, anybody can

gort · Mar 27, 2011

BEARING CRITERIA: [1 Corinthians 10:13.] If God never gives humans more than they can bear in temptation (3986: trial, probation, testing, being tried, temptation, calamity, affliction), as many claim, what is the criteria for judging what is borne? If a human lives, suffers, or dies, everything is borne by them, in the very definition of God's Word. For example, Hitler's supressions and concentration camps, all as the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem" is, by definition, not giving humans more than they can bear in temptation. For in such a framing of God's Word as too often taught, there is no criteria to judge God's load, for by definition God is Holy, and there is no outer frame of reference available for human judgement without God's Presence for 6000 years, as to what meets the criteria of being more than a human can bear.

On the contrary, there is a reference to be found in Jesus. If by dying on the cross and prevailing over the pain, trials and temptations on the way, is this not an an example of human criteria to determine Gods load?

EXPONENTIAL TALENT USURY RETURNS: [Deuteronomy 23:19. Matthew 25.14-30. II Thessalonians 3:10.] God's humans gives talents to humans, and by the framing of God's parables, shows that God's humans expect exponential return on the given talents, or else have them taken away, as an apparent fair "indian giver", and given to the one who is more profitable, in a "greed is good" for God's humans in paradigm. Not any mention is made of giving talents, and having them loose the talent altogether, implicitly shows there must be an even more grave penalty for lack of profitability, for them, because the one given a talent who at least preserves it without loss in a corrupt world, has it taken away as their reward in perfect preservational protocol...

My first reaction is that this IS a worldly view and does not reflect a true understanding of said parables.

GOD'S PERFECTION: [Catholic: God is Perfect in all His Ways, Infallible and Inerrant.] But an example of The Perfection of God, is that The All Knowing All Powerful Infallible Inerrant Creator, Creating all things for His Planned Pleasure, Has Created 100% perfectly sinful corrupt mere humans, every one, made from His Perfect Infallable Inerrant Intelligently Designed Master Plan, that forced His Free Will upon them that permits their corruption, and, thus, Justifies His Judgement, on His Little Children, who are forced to freely choose His Convicting Enslaving Only Love, in One Way Only Way. Evidenced in 70 billion dead humans integral estimated through history, and 7 billion humans destined for Loving God's Promised Death, among all of God's Promises. For example, As a system engineer, if I created an immortal walking robot with Free Will, I know that the robot is capable of failing a criteria of perfect obedience for eternal time, in free will, according to Murphy's Law - but All Knowing Infallible Inerrant God somehow doesn't, and even permits Satan to walk the garden, on top of that.

The worldly view would intonate that it WAS God who created sinfully corrupt humans when all along it was humans (2) who made the choice to be sinful in the first place. It will be most ingenuous to state in the Final Judgement that it is all Gods fault.

GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE: [Non-denominational evangelical: Under John 3:16, God's Love is unconditional.] The unconditional love of God is, in effect, God telling humanity under no uncertain terms, while under the threat of physical death, and ultimate utter soul destruction for not picking Him over Infidels, is implicitly used to garner their love if death is undesirable, that if they don't choose to love The One True God as their one and only certain choice, that God will utterly destroy their soul He Created after their physical death. In other words, love God unconditionally, or else be ultimately destroyed. And sometimes people say, with Free Will, one is all ways free to go to hell, which is Free Will Choice, and not an ultimatum to follow the One Only True God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

THE TRUE ACCUSER: [Non-denominational: Romans 3:23. Revelation 20:11-14.] While Satan may destroy the body, only God can destroy the soul, after physical death. And while Satan may accuse the followers of God, the truth is God has accused all humans as sinners worthy of death, as the True Judge. And we know every human can be categorized, by God's Word, as sinner. Not exactly accusation, but truth in His Judgement, for the free will God gave them.

Yes, the free will to choose whom we will serve. See John 3.19

THE ALL KNOWING NEEDS PHYSICAL TRIALS: [Acts 1:24. James 2:26. II Thessalonians 2. Matthew 24:23. Mark 13:6,14,21-22.] God, the All Powerful All Knowing Creator and Cardio Knower of humans, must trial and make suffer humans, because God does not know the depths of our love, except under material interface physical proof and assessment constraints on God's Knowledge, for The All Knowing God. For humans having faith in God is insufficient for God, requiring human suffering and trials and works for God to Know the human heart, with The All Knowing God, constrained to physical tests of human spirit, like a Doubting Thomas, Jew, Sadducee, Pharisee seeking a proof...

Perhaps it is more along the lines that it is the believer who does not know the depths of Gods love and through physical proof and assesment constraints the believer is amazed to learn the work God has done in him?

THE ENGINEERED PERFECT OBEDIENCE HUMAN EXPERIMENT: [Genesis] God, the Master Engineer, created humans perfect and immortal, and placed them in a perfect garden, expecting eternal obedience, having given them Free Will. And God, who in All Knowledge, controls the movements of His Intellgiently Designed Satan, permitted Satan to walk the garden, tempt Eve, and cause the downfall of humanity, thus marked as sinful in Original Sin with their God, through their own God Given Free Will, tempted beyond His First Law, so that they are made more succeptible to experiment failure, in their given task and test of eternal perfect obedience to God. Would humans have fallen, if longsuffering patient God did not permit Satan to walk the garden to hasten His Experimental Test of humans, if God simply tested humans in longsuffering patience to the criteria of failure mode to The Law? And though human engineers know in Murphy's Law, that any system that has the capability to fail, will fail in infinite time, we must know that God's ways are human-apologetic, and magical mystery unsearchable unfathomable Good, are so special and different, for God lives by a different law from His Created human experiment. The Good God, the Creator of all things through His Word, God Intelligently Designed humans given Free Will, from which sin and death were produced, as well as God Intelligently Designed Satan with Free Will. The Good Tree, from which Good and Evil Fruits arise, for not a thing was created, except through Him. But The Creator of All Things, in All Knowledge and All Power, is not responsible for what He Creates, because God gave humans His Free Will, and so humans are responsible for evil, not God, leaving God Holy and Blameless. For while humans are ultimately responsible for what they do, God is not, in His Master Plan. Because God is special and set aside from His Creation. And because, in Free Will over infinite time, if something can go wrong, it will go wrong, God is Inerrantly Justified in blaming humanity as sinful in THEIR Original Sin and ensuing deaths, trials, and tests, by God, who made the Cosmic Plan Human Experiment for His Pleasure. Like an All Powerful All Knowing system engineer, creating a robot with free will capable of failing in All Knowledge analysis, saying if the robot fails to be perfect eternally, that it is not my responsibility that it failed, it is the robot's sin and responsibility, and, therefore, I AM holy and blameless.

1. God was not expecting eternal obediance. If He was, then Jesus would not be the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.

2. It is difficult, no, imposible to place ourselves in the Garden of Eden as either Adam or Eve. There would have been no such thing as Murphys Law there. I would suspect that unless there was an outside force to tempt disobedience from the Gardens participants, this conversation would not be happening today.

3. The All Knowing system engineer already knew there was going to be failure in the eternally perfect category. And yet Holy and blameless as it was no He who sinned but you and I.

PRIDEFUL GAMBLING GOD: [Job] In Job, we see God was Willfully Prideful in Job in front of Satan's face, so Satan asked God for a bet on Job's Faith, and God Willfully Accepted Satan's bet, and allowed Satan to destroy Job's livelyhood. Furthermore, at the end, God asks Cattle Farmer Job, if Job remembered the differential equations that lay the heavens in their place, and Job had to fall on his knees and say no, with God giving Job replacement family deemed just as good as the originals, for replacements are justified.

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Willfully prideful or knowing the depth of Jobs love for God? If it is only God who knows the differential equations that lay the heavens in their place, then surely it was a safe bet.

CHILDREN OF MEN, INSTRUMENT OF GOD: [System engineering. Isaiah 64:6. Zechariah 1. Revelation 6:1-8] God's Cosmos is a system reliant on the context of what God views as His Little Children, sinful filthy rags when most righteous, as the medium of God's Wars in Powers and Principalities, of four horns, in religion, politics, economics, education to truth, to scatter humans, for God's Pleasure, as the purpose for God's Creation of the cosmos and humanity, in a veritable Prison Planet system with all humans placed under Universal Death Sentnce, to garner their love of Him, as if God were constrained by forces greater than His All Power and All Knowledge, Intelligently Designing the cosmos with God endowed Free Will humans, requiring His Creation of Death, where Death never existed before Him, to make humanity love Him who is complete and perfect by Himself, without humanity in the first place. For with God, the ends justify the means, and God is special compared to man, where the ends do not justify the means, for God follows a different law from humans.

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I would suspect that this worldy view is ignorant that God does follow a different law from humans, as humans do often think along the lines that God MUST follow the same individual myriad set of laws that humans dictate.

ABSENT NEGLIGENT BLIND FAITH: [System engineering issues. Leviticus 20:2.] God, the All Powerful All Knowing All things are possible with Him Greatest Teacher Guide Merciful Sustainer, God, absent neglectfully left the world of certifyable convicted sinner humans, left in the marginal position of being among numerous infidel strange god worshiping humans, creating different infidel faiths, and all Ordained in God's Master Plan in place to teach humanity of God, by these corrupt and corrupting humans. So much corrupt, that God was accomplice murdered by Kenite corrupted Jews usurped by Rome, while letting a murderer go, Just as God Ordained in His Plan, in child sacrifice akin to Moleck, in His Son, Jesus. For God so loved the world, that He sent His Only Begotten Son for Child Sacrifice, for we are all His little children, so that whosoever believes on Him, would not recieve the death for free will sin that they so truly deserve, but have everlasting life in His penal substition, only after they die in this world, with humans in the state of accepting only Christ unmistakeably while still alive, in the glass darkly sighted little children neglectfully abandonned by the Master Teacher of The World in presence, and having choosen rightly, among the numerous Master Planned Ordained Infidel god worshipping human stumbling blocks, that are not true gods but mere Infidel "religion" lifestyle choices like Mormon, Adventist, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, et cetera, for only the Chrisitian God is the One True Way of Reality, and not a mere religion or tradition of human's false gods. The All Powerful Creator of the universe, leaving humans alone, leaving behind only His Letter in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, behind in His Place. All Knowing God playing with humans like a father dangling a child on a balcony, but in God's Case, dangling humans through His Promised physical body universal death sentence, with life after bodily death also Promised, with God having created Death and Satan, Himself, that did not exist before He made the cosmos with the humanity that He Gave Free Will.

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To make a level playing field, I suppose it fair to make understanding that it is only possible that one faith is true and multiple lifestyle choices as the correct choice is irrational if not impossible. I also suppose that at this point I would wait to hear a response if there is one.

JUDGE-MEANT DEI: [2 Corinthians 13:5. 1 Corinthians 2:15, 4:3, 6:2. Matthew 7:1, 10:14. Mark 6:11. Luke 6:37, 9:5, 10:10-12. 2 John 1:10-11. Revelation 19:20-21, 20:11-15.] God says humans are not to judge humans. The saints of God will judge the world. For Paul does not judge himself, but it is God Who Judges. For humans are to judge humans, and shake the dust off their feet and leave infidels, and to not even bid those humans, who carry not the whole doctrine, God Speed, for they become partakers of their evil deeds. For God will judge the living and dead, from the book of life, for their names.

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Being an infidel once myself, I would be inclined to see if the infidel was thirsty or not before I shook off the dust.

SystemEngineer · Mar 30, 2011

[Soulgazer]
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Overall, a great post, for thought provoking!
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Actually, this "woman at the well" example, that you show, exemplifies a grave issue with God. It contains a private peculiar interpretation of those verses. It claims woman = israel, husband = God, divorced = barriers. A woman I know of as Israel occurs in Revelation 12, bearing Messiah against the corrupt earth, by context. But of John 4, forces one more "Faith" in those human teachings you present, are true. Plus, in the digital age, it is horribly easy to manufacture new private interpretations, II Peter 1:20. For it is not taught in decades, says something about american christian teaching quality.
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Same as the names, not from The Bible, [Marduk | Nergal | Ashima | Nibhaz | Hadad]. Where is their source from? Gnostic reading of human DNA? Babylon? For example, Marduk is in Jeremiah 50:2. Nergal, Ashima, Nibhaz is in 2 Kings 17:30-31. And Hadad is a common name scattered. How they are collected together and connected to John 4 as husbands in the verses is beyond me. So we see a false position object potential.
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And then you use a potnetial false position object to define The Bible as all parable within parable, which too many christians pose as false, for it unravels the whole Bible as mere Metaphor, instead of Reality. A position of Infidel. Now I grant you there is metaphor, as in Proverbs, it is easy to construct a link between molecular abiogenesis biochemistry auto-catalysis or systems theory auto-catalysis codes loosely linked to their ancient but interestingly coherent understanding of systems good and evil, with wisdom flow paralleling information flow in auto-catalytic systems, as a form of demiurge. To be read plainly as wisdom and good and evil, and to be read as metaphor as a large contextual coherence object. But for the five husbands ... far too short a coherence object without self reference, in a Bible with far too many systems self reference issues to believe, in how God is taught as a Catholic or general Fundamentalist Being, that is not a simple pantheist physics law.
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But what I gather of your description of a Gnostic Demiurge, sounds suspiciously familiar to Holistic Quantum Physics Entanglement Systems, where the human spirit is defined as the whole system entanglements that form in enduringly cohered, feedback, and processing matter, that forms things like visual perception, that is of spatial, simultaneous, and multiparametered measurements. For only such a type of mechanism of infinitely faster than light holistic correlated modification of entangled structural processing bulk matter can explain spatial and simultaneous perception and human spirit, built of only Virtually Independent Reductionist Particles, despite what No-Communication theorems may claim of two particle EPR systems hypothetically extended all the way to large statistical numbers of particles.
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Your description ["When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."], itself, is a parable only, for the systems are too coarse grained in mundane matter, and it requires the heirarchy of structures, in those forms, in order to produce a human with a human spirit. Otherwise, a paper cutout of a person would be a person, or a video of a person would be a person, or even a hologram of a person would be a person, which then reenters the realm of an insane Hindu Order of polytheism, for it has the image, and not the substance heirarchies of systemic processing matter, required for a Holistic Quantum Physics Entanglement System of human spirit that we see in an organic human with a presumed human spirit, and not mere Zoe animal spirit akin to a child (and some adults, even!).
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But then, the claimed Creator of the Cosmos God, that formed all humans imperfect evil with God's Willing them free will and creating a Satan Being with free will, and God without availability, hiding from every human, testifying of their deaths, and humans blinded to all that, saying you can see God in the stars in the sky and their constellations, and the mountains, rivers, oceans, and life, and humans stopping short of Revelation spelling out like Merciful Sustaining Teachers and not mad-humans, systemically analyzed of the earth testimony of God, it all looses its cosmic 7 billion living human, 70 billion dead human, value. But if the good tree can create evil where God was perfect is perfect ans is all ways perfect, then anybody can [smiley].

Jpark · Mar 30, 2011

I'll have a go at some of these.

SystemEngineer said:
BEARING CRITERIA: [1 Corinthians 10:13.] If God never gives humans more than they can bear in temptation (3986: trial, probation, testing, being tried, temptation, calamity, affliction), as many claim, what is the criteria for judging what is borne? If a human lives, suffers, or dies, everything is borne by them, in the very definition of God's Word. For example, Hitler's supressions and concentration camps, all as the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Problem" is, by definition, not giving humans more than they can bear in temptation. For in such a framing of God's Word as too often taught, there is no criteria to judge God's load, for by definition God is Holy, and there is no outer frame of reference available for human judgement without God's Presence for 6000 years, as to what meets the criteria of being more than a human can bear.

Notice the 'God is faithful'. 1 Cor. 10:13 does not apply to all of mankind.

SystemEngineer said:
GOD'S PERFECTION: [Catholic: God is Perfect in all His Ways, Infallible and Inerrant.] But an example of The Perfection of God, is that The All Knowing All Powerful Infallible Inerrant Creator, Creating all things for His Planned Pleasure, Has Created 100% perfectly sinful corrupt mere humans, every one, made from His Perfect Infallable Inerrant Intelligently Designed Master Plan, that forced His Free Will upon them that permits their corruption, and, thus, Justifies His Judgement, on His Little Children, who are forced to freely choose His Convicting Enslaving Only Love, in One Way Only Way. Evidenced in 70 billion dead humans integral estimated through history, and 7 billion humans destined for Loving God's Promised Death, among all of God's Promises. For example, As a system engineer, if I created an immortal walking robot with Free Will, I know that the robot is capable of failing a criteria of perfect obedience for eternal time, in free will, according to Murphy's Law - but All Knowing Infallible Inerrant God somehow doesn't, and even permits Satan to walk the garden, on top of that.

Original sin is inaccurate. It was substitution. God so loved Adam that He gave the world in place of Adam. Substitution for substitution. God so loved the world that He gave His Son in place of the world.

As for the one and only way,

Matt. 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Also take a look at Matt. 25:31-46.

The one and only way to enter heaven is by God's decision.

What did Jesus mean by "I am the way"?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

The one and only way to come to know the Father is through Jesus.

And God did not impart, or as you put it, force His free will. His free will is unlimited. Furthermore, man was not given free will until after sin entered the world.

SystemEngineer said:
GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE: [Non-denominational evangelical: Under John 3:16, God's Love is unconditional.] The unconditional love of God is, in effect, God telling humanity under no uncertain terms, while under the threat of physical death, and ultimate utter soul destruction for not picking Him over Infidels, is implicitly used to garner their love if death is undesirable, that if they don't choose to love The One True God as their one and only certain choice, that God will utterly destroy their soul He Created after their physical death. In other words, love God unconditionally, or else be ultimately destroyed. And sometimes people say, with Free Will, one is all ways free to go to hell, which is Free Will Choice, and not an ultimatum to follow the One Only True God.

Actually, that's not why we follow God. We follow God because He made a promise to us to deliver us from our sins and we want to be free from sin (1 Cor. 15:17). Threats are irrelevant.

SystemEngineer said:
THE TRUE ACCUSER: [Non-denominational: Romans 3:23. Revelation 20:11-14.] While Satan may destroy the body, only God can destroy the soul, after physical death. And while Satan may accuse the followers of God, the truth is God has accused all humans as sinners worthy of death, as the True Judge. And we know every human can be categorized, by God's Word, as sinner. Not exactly accusation, but truth in His Judgement, for the free will God gave them.

It should be noted that Gen. 6:5, 11-12 was before the scattering of humanity (Gen. 11:8). In Acts 17:26-27, Paul identifies this scattering as a way to get people to seek God.

Acts 17:26-27

and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

This indicates that in unity, man is entirely depraved. So Psalm 14:1-3 is not always true.

SystemEngineer said:
JUDGEMENT DAY: [2 Corinthians 13:5. 1 Corinthians 2:15, 4:3, 6:2. Matthew 7:1, 10:14. Mark 6:11. Luke 6:37, 9:5, 10:10-12. 2 John 1:10-11. Revelation 19:20-21, 20:11-15.] God says humans are not to judge humans. The saints of God will judge the world. For Paul does not judge himself, but it is God Who Judges. For humans are to judge humans, and shake the dust off their feet and leave infidels, and to not even bid those humans, who carry not the whole doctrine, God Speed, for they become partakers of their evil deeds. For God will judge the living and dead, from the book of life, for their names.

Fixed that for you.

He doesn't forbid judgment that coincides with God's judgment (John 7:24).

As for leaving unbelievers, that's only when the person responds stubbornly (Matt. 7:6). That will not usually happen if the person presenting the gospel does it with gentleness (2 Tim. 2:25).

As for partaking, read 1 Cor. 5:9-13:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

As for 2 Cor. 6:14-15, that means don't too closely associate with unbelievers. That doesn't mean we can't associate with them.

SystemEngineer · Apr 2, 2011

[Gort] Good format, using response per question puzzlers from earth-cosmic interface witness.
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First, I guess I should ask the following key items, if it is True that God is always:
ALL POWERFUL
ALL KNOWING PAST
ALL KNOWING PRESENT
ALL KNOWING FUTURE
INFALLIBLE
INERRANT
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BEARING CRITERIA
Jesus is a reference, that you suggest every human could suffer as much as Jesus, as the criteria of what a human can bear? So Merciful God uses the samples of tortures and trials and temptations to coerse His Unconditional Love, love God unconditionally, or else - see [GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE]. So, God is like a Hitler type, for His Fatherland, where the best Intelligent Design example of teaching salvation, is that of Child Sacrifice, akin to Moleck worship. And not only did Jesus feel all human sins, but every human feels the trials and tortures of the Prison Planet Order of a Warden God, that makes payments twice, as the Intelligent Design of a Merciful Contrary God.
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EXPONENTIAL TALENT USURY RETURNS
The stewardship of talents, is a parable and often taught lesson of God's Economy, spoken by Jesus Himself. Jesus teches worldly views? And for a person of Thw Word, where is the teaching of your view of the exponential talent usury returns? If it is a parable of, for example, countable units of wisdom lent, then where is the return on the talents that you have learned? And if wisdom, God takes wisdom away, to give to another? How fast, in God's Longsuffering Ways? And if wisdom talents, say, God repents of what He Gives?
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GOD'S PERFECTION
That is my point, that the claimed All Powerful All Knowing God, Knowingly created humans and Knowingly gave them Free Will. What does the One God expect, trying to make humans with Free Will expecting perfect eternal obedience? Like I said before, an engineer knows that a robot with Free Will will have errors to perfect obedience for an eternal period of time. And God blames Free Will creations for having Free Will, instead of teaching and guiding, but instead leaves them alone in the perfect garden with likewise Wilfully Created Satan that God Wilfully gave Free Will, punishing all the generations of humanity, instead of restoration and good breeding. And does an engineer that knowingly creates a free will robot knwing as an engineer that imperfection can occur in an eternal time window, and then blame the robot for having free will, or does the engineer teach-program the robot to become better, as God is a kind merciful teacher, or not?
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GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
I believe John 3:19 is prophetic of the Roman-Kenite corrupted Jews, that Jesus was sent as the Child Sacrifice, because humans rejected Jesus in the first advent. It definitely does not reconcile the use of Jesus, under the clear threat of God's Promised Death Sentence for all, to garner Love of God, under threats, that humans manifesting God's Teachings often use. How corrupt, humans God manifested in His Master Plan, to require such a near Moleck type approach. I suppose I can agree that there is much dark condemnation, even among modern Christians, as much as among the Jews 2000 years ago.
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THE TRUE ACCUSER
Free will, as if God were not the very essence of a heart-cardio knower, before we were even born (Jacob God loved Esau God hated before they were born), all for an overly drawn out Zeus Jupiter Shakespeare God game made out of life with His human pawns for His Pleasure? And a Knower of making Evil souls and Good souls? And even then, all humans God Knowingly creates sinful, except Jesus, and posibly Enoch, and Elijah? And where Satan only pretenses accusations, God, do you agree, is the True Accuser of His Creation, every human sinful?
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THE ALL KNOWING NEEDS PHYSICAL TRIALS
Actually, I can imagine a mindless careless infinite power Hindu Heirarchy reigns supreme over a finite God's powers, with terrors and tortures of God far beyond this plane of cosmic projection, expressed pathetically as Jesus taking human sins and evils, for giving them Prometheous like Free Will fire, but why such a tortuous creation, hidden behind terrible deceptions, all to conceal the cosmic level torture of God Himself, with even a false Bible architecture setup, to garner love and worship, unless this God under the thumb of the mindless careless infinite Hindu Power, is addicted to love, and trapped, selfsame? A terrible large painful work belying a more terrifying dreadful cosmos over God, concealed in deceptions of illusion. And in such a regieme and paradigm, it indicates God's very need for war, trainings, trials, and such, to create new human God's to help God battle in infinite dimensions of blood and no continuity of a broken One Body. Sounds more Mormon Interplanetary-Intercosmic Terraforming and wars, instead of one world one body one continuity other than illusions of continuities, on dying planets and solar systems.
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THE ENGINEERED PERFECT OBEDIENCE HUMAN EXPERIMENT
(1) You miss the Garden Concept humans teach of God, through The Bible. Perfect humans, given free will, put in a perfect garden, that were immortal, but became mortal because they sinned to the one simple law God game them to obey, and God did not even teach and correct them, but let the earth fall for 6000 years, 70 billion human historial deaths, and 7 billion on their way to death. Yes, I agree, God probably didn't expect eternal obedience, because God Wilfully allowed Satan to walk the garden, to tempt and destabilize the garden of God, more quickly, than His Testified Longsuffering ways, for God couldn't wait long enough, perhaps, and had to rush the experiment.
(2) Murphy's Law did exist, because God made humans perfect in a perfect environment, gave them Free Will Wilfully, and commanded them with one simple law to obey, and because they were diverted by God Willing Satan to walk the Garden, they failed. A system with free will, capable of failing, will fail eventually ... Murphy's Law.
(3) Same thinking probably let Adolph Hitler plan for Argentina, after the Germanic NAZI system failed, given false engineering concepts of the German National Socialist Fatherland.
=
PRIDEFUL GAMBLING GOD
God was Proud of Job. But God was Prideful in front of Satan, Willfully. Satan made a bet with God, and God took Satan on Satan's Bet. God, sacrificing another one of His Children, like Moleck Worship, working with Satan, destroying Job's Life and killing his family, and giving replacements, in discontinuity of Job's life. YES, a safe bet that a cattle farmer 3000 years ago can be LORDed over, by the Merciful Good God, if Job remembers the differential equations of the universe. Even a human professor can lord over a primitive student for not knowing everything in the cosmos. It is not fair for a Professor, but it is perfect Ends Justify the Means for God, who lives by a separate law.
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CHILDREN OF MEN, INSTRUMENT OF GOD
That is one thing I suspected, that with God, many laws are different, like a Zeus Jupiter Shakespeare God over human pawn actors fretting their time upon a stage and dying. For we see, in the entire age, that The Ends Justify the Means, with God who created good and evil, where before the cosmos, only Good existed, with the Good Tree bearing both Good and Evil fruits, in His Willful Creation, even of Satan himself, granted Free Will, also, guarding God's Throne, even. This makes me suspect that God is not ALL KNOWING FUTURE, because if God was ALL KNOWING FUTURE, then God would not have tempted Satan to guard His Throne, with Free Will, unless God is ALL KNOWING FUTURE, and gets Pleasure in His creation, in both Good and Evil actions, for God would have been a bored Zeus, without Good and Evil that God can stand, but not his delicate humans prone to failures, and LORDs over humans, because God can take it all, and says it like it is terrible to scare human primates into following the Good God, for the Evil God cannot be stood by humans.
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ABSENT NEGLIGENT BLIND FAITH
Well, it is only possible to follow one master. However, the manifestation of the Intelligent Designed earth-cosmos interface, can be so complex, it breaks up the one body into many pieces, as witnessed in multitudes of Christian Denominations, with fighting factions, not unified under The Word, properly divided and in harmony instead of the One Body fighting the One Body, into veiled divisions, when Jesus claimed to rent the veil. The most difficult aspect in america, is the socialist nature of most americans, that forces conflicts, battles, and covert actions, stressful and difficult if not impossible to walk straight in manufactured stumblingblocks and limitations defined by even our own time of coming promised deaths in finite time and finite information availability, even compared to the garden, and yet Ordained in God's Master Plan of difficulty and confusions before death.
=
But, in fact, an early model of One World under Georg Hegel, attempted to systematize such a model, with domains, information, and guides, in every domain, to permit safe travel and knowledge of different domains that could be reached, but it is quite complex to implement on earth, costly, time consuming, and nails one's path down in many ways, where God said all things are possible, and yet human limitations even perclude some things from being, in some ways, despite the potentials of God. In fact, under distortions of finite thinking twisted German Philosophers, the Hegel concepts were corrupted under the NAZI Germany Fatherland.
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JUDGE MEANT DEI
I think you missed the points, that depending on the verses, we are told not to judge, we do Judge, only God Judges, and while some like you might ask an Infidel of their thirst for water where they never thirst again, there's alot of thirst in this Infidel world, before making final judgment to shake the dust off their feet and leave. The self contradictions among these verses are concerning. Especially II John 1:10-11, where all Infidel Doctrines are to be departed from, likely causing the numerous Denominations of Christianity that fight one another, in private peculiar interpretations, and moreso the True emnity between the world's Infidel religions, and The Christian Bible Reality, claimed True. For the power of God's Word in human hearts, was not true, if the first major example of Catholics, gave rise to Inquisitions, and led to Protestants and Lutherans, early on.
=
The worst is yet to come, with Satan coming as Jesus, with miracles and wonders to decieve even the believers, if the days were not shortened, with the disguised decievers in Christ saying, lo Jesus is here or there, but to beleive them not, when even the Churches themselves are become corrupt tools of the powers and principalities. II Thessalonians 2:3-12, Matthew 24:4-35, Mark 13:14-26, Luke 21:8-27.
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Definitely, not enough love in the world, of God's Prison Planet under Universal Death Sentence in His Master Plan for the Fatherland Eternity.

SystemEngineer · Apr 2, 2011

[Soulgazer]
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By the way, the section ["When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."] sounds very familiar for another reason beyond Demiuge Systems akin to Mutual Quantum Entanglement System, and even the Bible Heaven Age without Male or Female.
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Is that, perchance, an old Islamic Story, or section from the Moslem Koran, as I recall hearing something like that from the 1970's? It really does sound familiar, but I have not heard that one for almost 40 years. Maybe even an old Egyptian Tale, from the times of Imhotep?

Soulgazer · Apr 2, 2011

SystemEngineer said:
[Soulgazer]
=
Overall, a great post, for thought provoking!
=
Actually, this "woman at the well" example, that you show, exemplifies a grave issue with God. It contains a private peculiar interpretation of those verses. It claims woman = israel, husband = God, divorced = barriers. A woman I know.....................................

Let me give you a very Gnostic answer to the totality of your post, only about 80% of which I could make heads or tails of

If no one asks questions, no answers will be found. And answers have to mean something to the seeker. Those who have stopped seeking never find anything more than what they have. May you never find what you are looking for.

gort · Apr 2, 2011

BEARING CRITERIA
Jesus is a reference, that you suggest every human could suffer as much as Jesus, as the criteria of what a human can bear? So Merciful God uses the samples of tortures and trials and temptations to coerse His Unconditional Love, love God unconditionally, or else - see [GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE]. So, God is like a Hitler type, for His Fatherland, where the best Intelligent Design example of teaching salvation, is that of Child Sacrifice, akin to Moleck worship. And not only did Jesus feel all human sins, but every human feels the trials and tortures of the Prison Planet Order of a Warden God, that makes payments twice, as the Intelligent Design of a Merciful Contrary God.

Oh my, you've invoked Godwins Law and thereby lose the arguement.

Nevertheless, let's rather examine what a christian might be willing to suffer if say a gun is held to his head and told to either renounce Jesus and live or refuse to renounce and die immediately? Your choice would be what?
Of course, there are other scenarios which the non-christian might understand better in concerns to family, country, etc. Anyways, Jesus was willing to suffer all the way to death for his Fathers will and not according to his will.

EXPONENTIAL TALENT USURY RETURNS
The stewardship of talents, is a parable and often taught lesson of God's Economy, spoken by Jesus Himself. Jesus teches worldly views? And for a person of Thw Word, where is the teaching of your view of the exponential talent usury returns? ... How fast, in God's Longsuffering Ways? And if wisdom talents, say, God repents of what He Gives?

It's not that Jesus taught worldy views, it is rather the worldy views of what Jesus taught in regards to expecting a tangible reward for doing a thing which should have been done regardless of tangible reward instead of burying "talents" in the ground for fear of retribution. For the worldly example, a person gains an inheritance and immediatly goes out and blows the whole wad on personal fun instead of say, investing it for the future of self and family. The person who gave the inheritance in the first place would probably not have had blowing the whole wad on personal fun at the top of the A-list.

GOD'S PERFECTION
That is my point, that the claimed All Powerful All Knowing God, Knowingly created humans and Knowingly gave them Free Will. What does the One God expect, trying to make humans with Free Will expecting perfect eternal obedience? ..., and then blame the robot for having free will, or does the engineer teach-program the robot to become better, as God is a kind merciful teacher, or not?

Again, the One God did not make humans expecting perfect eternal obedience. Todays earthly engineer can have no understanding of creating a robot in a perfect sphere in which there are no inherent flaws. There are flaws because the earthly engineer is flawed in the first place. And such an earthly engineer cannot have experimental knowledge of such a perfect sphere in the first place much less make correct assumptions about it. But, the earthly engineer can supposedly read and find that with such a Free Will choice to make, it is still the error of one making such a free will choice and not the Creators fault and blame.

GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
I believe John 3:19 is prophetic of the Roman-Kenite corrupted Jews, that Jesus was sent as the Child Sacrifice, because humans rejected Jesus in the first advent....I suppose I can agree that there is much dark condemnation, even among modern Christians, as much as among the Jews 2000 years ago.

I'm not familiar with the Roman-Kenite corrupted Jews or a near Moleck type approach. I'm neither aware that humans rejected Jesus in the first advent because we are told many did and many have since come to a new relationship with God because of the price Jesus paid on the Cross. What was paid for on the Cross is the wages you and I incurred for sin and Jesus, being the propitiation for such wages, paid the bill due for me. Of course, many did reject Jesus and the rationale is clear; the loved the dark more than the light and choose to remain in the dark. Todays earthly judge offer no mediary position for the incurrance of a death penalty, the Supreme Judge of all has offered such a position in light of such a Supreme Law. It is this Supreme Law which is the highpoint decision and not a position of garnering a love for the Supreme Judge from His constituants. It is also more of a Supreme Love for His constituants in the form of a Supreme Mercy that such an intermediary is offered. It's always about God first.

As to the near Moloch type approach, I don't think that arbitrary child sacrfice to the gods can be termed a near type approach at all.

THE TRUE ACCUSER
Free will, as if God were not the very essence of a heart-cardio knower, before we were even born (Jacob God loved Esau God hated before they were born), all for an overly drawn out Zeus Jupiter Shakespeare God game made out of life with His human pawns for His Pleasure? And a Knower of making Evil souls and Good souls? And even then, all humans God Knowingly creates sinful, except Jesus, and posibly Enoch, and Elijah? And where Satan only pretenses accusations, God, do you agree, is the True Accuser of His Creation, every human sinful?

I would say God is more along the lines of the True Deemer as He has deemed that all have sinned. But, perhaps True Accuser is also true, but when the finger is pointed, the True Accuser has no fault to make such true accusations. As I was created from my sinful parents and not from the dust of the earth or from the Holy Spirit, I cannot exactly agree that I was created by God. And neither was Enoch or Elijah who both have sin as I do.

So, God must Rightfully be the True Accuser in that you and I have sinned, yes?

THE ALL KNOWING NEEDS PHYSICAL TRIALSActually, I can imagine a mindless careless infinite power Hindu Heirarchy reigns supreme over a finite God's powers, with terrors and tortures of God far beyond this plane of cosmic projection, expressed pathetically as Jesus taking human sins and evils, for giving them Prometheous like Free Will fire, but why such a tortuous creation, hidden behind terrible deceptions, all to conceal the cosmic level torture of God Himself, with even a false Bible architecture setup, to garner love and worship, unless this God under the thumb of the mindless careless infinite Hindu Power, is addicted to love, and trapped, selfsame? A terrible large painful work belying a more terrifying dreadful cosmos over God, concealed in deceptions of illusion. And in such a regieme and paradigm, it indicates God's very need for war, trainings, trials, and such, to create new human God's to help God battle in infinite dimensions of blood and no continuity of a broken One Body. Sounds more Mormon Interplanetary-Intercosmic Terraforming and wars, instead of one world one body one continuity other than illusions of continuities, on dying planets and solar systems.

Wow, you sure asked a mouthful.

In my last post I stated:

Perhaps it is more along the lines that it is the believer who does not know the depths of Gods love and through physical proof and assesment constraints the believer is amazed to learn the work God has done in him?

And to continue, I might say that it is not God who needs the physical trials and tribulations but man who needs them, needs them to come next to the edge of a deep, dark hole...

THE ENGINEERED PERFECT OBEDIENCE HUMAN EXPERIMENT
(1) You miss the Garden Concept humans teach of God, through The Bible. Perfect humans, given free will, put in a perfect garden, that were immortal, but became ... Yes, I agree, God probably didn't expect eternal obedience, because God Wilfully allowed Satan to walk the garden, to tempt and destabilize the garden of God, more quickly, than His Testified Longsuffering ways, for God couldn't wait long enough, perhaps, and had to rush the experiment.
(2) Murphy's Law did exist, because God made humans perfect in a perfect environment, gave them Free Will Wilfully, and commanded them with one simple law to obey, and because they were diverted by God Willing Satan to walk the Garden, they failed. A system with free will, capable of failing, will fail eventually ... Murphy's Law.
(3) Same thinking probably let Adolph Hitler plan for Argentina, after the Germanic NAZI system failed, given false engineering concepts of the German National Socialist Fatherland.

1. They could'nt have been perfect in the Garden. Man was made lower than the angels. Even the angels chose badly. The word perfect has a meaning and such a meaning must be stuck to and not abused. Perfect would mean incapable of being imperfect and the imperfect choice to eat of the wrong tree was made.

2. You contradict yourself in describing perfect humans who are capable of failing.

3. Godwins Law again.

PRIDEFUL GAMBLING GOD
God was Proud of Job. But God was Prideful in front of Satan, Willfully. Satan made a bet with God, and God took Satan on Satan's Bet. God, sacrificing another one of His Children, like Moleck Worship, working with Satan, destroying Job's Life and killing his family, and giving replacements, in discontinuity of Job's life. YES, a safe bet that a cattle farmer 3000 years ago can be LORDed over, by the Merciful Good God, if Job remembers the differential equations of the universe. Even a human professor can lord over a primitive student for not knowing everything in the cosmos. It is not fair for a Professor, but it is perfect Ends Justify the Means for God, who lives by a separate law.

hehe, I suppose there's a little bit of Job in all of us, thinking we know it all. A lesson to learn unless we think we do know the differential equations to the universe, yes? I also suppose that there's a little bit of that human professor in all of us too?

CHILDREN OF MEN, INSTRUMENT OF GOD
That is one thing I suspected, that with God, many laws are different, like a Zeus Jupiter Shakespeare God over human pawn actors fretting their time upon a stage and dying. For we see, in the entire age, that The Ends Justify the Means, with God who created good and evil, where before the cosmos, only Good existed, with the Good Tree bearing both Good and Evil fruits, in His Willful Creation, even of Satan himself, granted Free Will, also, guarding God's Throne, even. This makes me suspect that God is not ALL KNOWING FUTURE, because if God was ALL KNOWING FUTURE, then God would not have tempted Satan to guard His Throne, with Free Will, unless God is ALL KNOWING FUTURE, and gets Pleasure in His creation, in both Good and Evil actions, for God would have been a bored Zeus, without Good and Evil that God can stand, but not his delicate humans prone to failures, and LORDs over humans, because God can take it all, and says it like it is terrible to scare human primates into following the Good God, for the Evil God cannot be stood by humans.

I'm always up for a good debate of the All Knowing Future and what is contained within such and includes some Calvinism and Armenianisms points of view. What must also be taken into considerations are Pauls comments from Romans chapter 9; what if...?

ABSENT NEGLIGENT BLIND FAITH
Well, it is only possible to follow one master. However, the manifestation of the Intelligent Designed earth-cosmos interface, can be so complex, it breaks up the one body into many pieces, as witnessed in multitudes of Christian Denominations, with fighting factions, not unified under The Word, properly divided and in harmony instead of the One Body fighting the One Body, into veiled divisions, when Jesus claimed to rent the veil. The most difficult aspect in america, is the socialist nature of most americans, that forces conflicts, battles, and covert actions, stressful and difficult if not impossible to walk straight in manufactured stumblingblocks and limitations defined by even our own time of coming promised deaths in finite time and finite information availability, even compared to the garden, and yet Ordained in God's Master Plan of difficulty and confusions before death.

Actually, it is not Gods complex Master Plan of difficulty at all, but Gods Master Plan of simplicity. Simple enough to where it is humans who have and will make it complex, and this is experimentally true.

JUDGE MEANT DEI
I think you missed the points, that depending on the verses, we are told not to judge, we do Judge, only God Judges, and while some like you might ask an Infidel of their thirst for water where they never thirst again, there's alot of thirst in this Infidel world, before making final judgment to shake the dust off their feet and leave. The self contradictions among these verses are concerning. Especially II John 1:10-11, where all Infidel Doctrines are to be departed from, likely causing the numerous Denominations of Christianity that fight one another, in private peculiar interpretations, and moreso the True emnity between the world's Infidel religions, and The Christian Bible Reality, claimed True. For the power of God's Word in human hearts, was not true, if the first major example of Catholics, gave rise to Inquisitions, and led to Protestants and Lutherans, early on.

I really find no contradictions concerning how we are to judge or not to judge in the world. If you are looking for some clarity, please to ask. Otherwise, I really don't think that Infidel Doctrines outlined in 2John has anything to do with differing denominations within the (c)atholic church, Inquisitions or the Christian Bible Reality. And, we can discuss this if you like.

The worst is yet to come, with Satan coming as Jesus, with miracles and wonders to decieve even the believers, if the days were not shortened, with the disguised decievers in Christ saying, lo Jesus is here or there, but to beleive them not, when even the Churches themselves are become corrupt tools of the powers and principalities. II Thessalonians 2:3-12, Matthew 24:4-35, Mark 13:14-26, Luke 21:8-27.

Reading the scriptures and believing them to be instructions for living, for righteousness and holding the Truth of God, it is not hard to ignore, hard to answer much less worldly refutations. In them, we would find that Satan is not coming as Jesus nor can believers be deceived. Nor would we find ourselves able to be like Adam; blaming Eve and God for our very own choices in life.

SystemEngineer · Apr 3, 2011

Soulgazer said:
Let me give you a very Gnostic answer to the totality of your post, only about 80% of which I could make heads or tails of If no one asks questions, no answers will be found. And answers have to mean something to the seeker. Those who have stopped seeking never find anything more than what they have. May you never find what you are looking for.

=
So does the pastor of a flock, judging like the Saints, Elect, Levitical, of Melchesidec, say to himself, I will stay with the ninety and nine sheep, and forget the lost sheep, let the lost sheep not find what they are looking for, calling his ninety and nine, rejoycing with them, alone? That all the christians in Thw Word, shall hide behind the armor of God, when they have no answer, for the answer [I don't know], is forbidden, compared to the knowledge of God? A slack christian saying in milk, the Lord is slack concerning His Promise, as some men count slackness, not longsuffering to usward, willing that some should perish, that only some should come to repentance? Being a Jew first, like in Jeremiah 7:27, that these words shall be spoken, but they will not hearken, they will not answer? That as you warn them of issues in system engineerings taught through humans of the church, they will not turn, casting away the children and widows, because of the famine, not for bread and water, but for the word of God manifest through them, to warn and chastise in proper protocol, saying peace peace, when there is no peace from the Merciful Sustaining Comforter, busy making cakes to the queen of heaven, and drink to other gods, that provoke the LORD to anger Jer 7:18? Saying to the LORD, Jer 16:10[And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what [is] our iniquity? or what [is] our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?], saying what have we done wrong? Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee, Jer 7:16, with humans taking that place of the LORD standing as the abomination of desolation, where they ought not stand with Satan, an assembly of of treacherous men, Jer 9:2, bending their tongues like the false bow of lies with Satan? Is it like Jer 3:8[And I saw, when backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also], defiling the land, committing adultery, with stones and stocks, turning feigningly like Judah, with Christians being trained to be Jews first? In concealment behind a veil of division in traditions of men that make God's Word Null and Void, rather than Revelation, like Jeremiah 8:5[Why [then] is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.]. As Jer 6:21 concluding, [Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.]
=

Soulgazer · Apr 3, 2011

SystemEngineer said:
=
So does the pastor of a flock, judging like the Saints, Elect, Levitical, of Melchesidec, say to himself, I will stay with the ninety and nine sheep, and forget the lost sheep, let the lost sheep not find what they are looking for, calling his ninety and nine, rejoycing with them, alone? That all the christians in Thw Word, shall hide behind the armor of God, when they have no answer, for the answer [I don't know], is forbidden, compared to the knowledge of God? A slack christian saying in milk, the Lord is slack concerning His Promise, as some men count slackness, not longsuffering to usward, willing that some should perish, that only some should come to repentance? Being a Jew first, like in Jeremiah 7:27, that these words shall be spoken, but they will not hearken, they will not answer? That as you warn them of issues in system engineerings taught through humans of the church, they will not turn, casting away the children and widows, because of the famine, not for bread and water, but for the word of God manifest through them, to warn and chastise in proper protocol, saying peace peace, when there is no peace from the Merciful Sustaining Comforter, busy making cakes to the queen of heaven, and drink to other gods, that provoke the LORD to anger Jer 7:18? Saying to the LORD, Jer 16:10[And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what [is] our iniquity? or what [is] our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?], saying what have we done wrong? Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee, Jer 7:16, with humans taking that place of the LORD standing as the abomination of desolation, where they ought not stand with Satan, an assembly of of treacherous men, Jer 9:2, bending their tongues like the false bow of lies with Satan? Is it like Jer 3:8[And I saw, when backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also], defiling the land, committing adultery, with stones and stocks, turning feigningly like Judah, with Christians being trained to be Jews first? In concealment behind a veil of division in traditions of men that make God's Word Null and Void, rather than Revelation, like Jeremiah 8:5[Why [then] is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.]. As Jer 6:21 concluding, [Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.]
=

It is the shepherd who seeks. The sheep is lost because it stopped looking. Go join with the other 99 now, and keep your eyes wide open. Don't be afraid of cows.

SystemEngineer · Apr 3, 2011

[GORT]
That was a horrendous rambling NAZI like torturing response, that hurt my eyes, to have to pass over it. If torturing strangers is acceptable in america, I AM terribly familiar with that american paradigm, with disappearing humans in general. If you are too immature to put yourself in someone else's shoes, here, to comprehend the apparent system engineering issues, by running them carefully to grounded answers, and not Jesus ass kissing ivory tower Christian Bible Certain pandering, placating, pacifying, coersivness to one's good eternal existence, if it even exists goodly seeing how christians appear to manifest in reality interfaces, then just read the issues, still believe what you believe in milk and old wine bags, and remain silent, or maybe try just one at a time, for your minor bandwidth capabilities. I don't know your IQ and adaptability, angers and problems, christian sadistic carelessness, or just american press inciteful muckraking - so if you have issues, or ulterior motivations, you need to tell me, for how to take yourself, or treat you as a hypocrite-play-actor of the American Great harlot Babylon in Floods of Lies, in witness of american Sadisms, and Misunderstandings.
=
And I agree, that you will find in the typical american since the 1970's, that they will hold guns literally overtly violently, or figuratively subtlely nicely in words, pointed at you to repent of Jesus, Allah, YHVH, Buddha, Brahma / Shiva / Vishnu, Ganesha, Atheism, Science, Mormonism, family, socialism, isolationism, straight, gay, black, white, red, yellow, abortionist, pro-lifer, vegetarian, carnivore ... you name it, americans WILL hate it, for the finite bandwidth Master Plan Prison Planet, Pleased God, somehow, inexplicable, unfathomable, unexplainable ... copout of The One Only True Christian God against Infidels. America is an equal opportunity discriminator. But if you are not part of the answer connected to addressing the claimed concept's self contradictory issues of infinities given testified finites, with the Invisible Absent Negligent God, then you only add to the problems that have been witnessed, and are playing games on serious topics like a psychologist manipulator coerser, if you comprehend what is presented in systems issues.
=
There were enough cutesy bullshate copout hypocrite christians in america in the 1970's to today, I AM witness to, that ultimately bred the very instabilities and terrorists that we now see, in the world, and world economy, with ignorant politic humans saying WeWin arguments, against all the known Infidels against God, like a three year old, in a Khmer Rouge Pol Pot Cambodian Revolution of hatred against intelligence, by primate brute forces of abuse, hate, and violence, that you should grow past in capabilities to connect your answers directly to the systems issues. If you are retarded, I apologize. This thread is not for you, and you cannot recognize it, and neither of us have the answers from The Comforter, who is Absent Nigligent Invisible Uncertain.
=
And if you are merely on vacation, playing games, in this time division multiplex channel, then jerk off somewhere else, your parents don't know where you are, or don't even care about you, in such a typical american way on the testified finite bandwidth Prison Planet of God. I AM asking questions lacking GOOD answers. I AM not your parent, with YOUR crap in YOUR mouth, lacking any continuity knowledge of who you even are. As americans in unbiased non propaganda news media to educate and inform, because they say that they are unbiased, and so therefore they win, -- Why don't you go back to where you came from? If you don't recognize, that is typical christian religion, and nationalist socialist american religion sarcasms in the true nature of american sadistic hypocrisy poor traited in unbiased media and reality of humans in person, in many extents. Not good for answering in Compassion, unless the definition of Compassion has become sadism, with white being black, and black being white, to understand the claimed One Only Book of Life, The Bible, against the Known True Infidels of the world. And that is not sarcasm, for you should understand what we all hear about God and Truth, in america. Just don't look at the world and american economy and american housing market, assuming not a propaganda plague that everyone keeps secret, of humans playing gods, for the americans use in politics the we win argument too. The american nation state constitutionally divorced from God, and Judicially protecting all strange gods, made equal to God Himself, under the eyes of legal protection. Not any outsourced Hindu many headed beast ... or is it?

Hard to ignore, hard to answer, worldly refutations.

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