When is one born again?

RibI said:

As usual you have jumped in the deep end and can't swim.

You have completely missed the context of what I have been saying so your response makes no sense.

What's new? yourself.

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I am an aquatic creature, and can swim quite well thanks.

Obviously the reference to the mother, shows the flesh vs Spirit. And born of, could only be of the Spirit of God since man can not create himself. But you would rather argue about pneuma, bacause Romans 6, ends your theory, about being not born again, until the final resurrection!

Rom 6:Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Frogster said:

I am an aquatic creature, and can swim quite well thanks.

Obviously the reference to the mother, shows the flesh vs Spirit. And born of, could only be of the Spirit of God since man can not create himself. But you would rather argue about pneuma, bacause Romans 6, ends your theory, about being not born again, until the final resurrection!

Rom 6:Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

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Like I said. As usual you have jumped in the deep end and can't swim.

You have completely missed the context of what I have been saying so your response makes no sense.

What's new?

yourself.

Gary51 said:

This is a mistranslation.... in more than one way... First mistake, "he" should read "He" Second mistake, "born should read "begotten"

...He has caused me to be begotten again...​

Another point.....The question of when Christ was born again takes on greater significance for another reason. True Christians copy Christ. The apostle Peter wrote, “Christ...leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps” (I Pet. 2:21).
It is impossible for Christians to follow Christ’s example of rebirth at conversion because He was never converted in the human sense. He had the Holy Spirit from the moment His physical existence began.




​

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Hi. Do u think Romans 6, was about the final resurrection, or are we alive with Christ now, we who were dead?

RibI said:

Like I said. As usual you have jumped in the deep end and can't swim.

You have completely missed the context of what I have been saying so your response makes no sense.

What's new?

yourself.

Click to expand...

I am an aquatic creature, and can swim quite well thanks.

Obviously the reference to the mother, shows the flesh vs Spirit. And born of, could only be of the Spirit of God since man can not create himself. But you would rather argue about pneuma, bacause Romans 6, ends your theory, about being not born again, until the final resurrection!

Rom 6:Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Here is a classic pneuma debate. S or s. Either way, we were dead, now alive, and it "taint" at the final day.

New American Standard Bible Romans 8:10.
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.



King James Bible
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Darby Bible Translation
but if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness.

Gary51 said:

This is a mistranslation.... in more than one way... First mistake, "he" should read "He" Second mistake, "born should read "begotten"​

It is impossible for Christians to follow Christ’s example of rebirth at conversion because He was never converted in the human sense. He had the Holy Spirit from the moment His physical existence began.​

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This is so far removed from wisdom knowledge or understanding... what is wrong with people!?

Jesus never received the Holy Spirit until at his Baptism. THAT is when he was birthed. THAT is when he was born. THAT is when he was begotten.
THAT is when THIS prophecy was fulfilled and why it is quoted over and over in the New Testament.


(Psa 2:7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

(Act 13:33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

(Heb 1:5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

His baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit at Jordon is OUR example of how to enter into sonship of God. Baptism always is identical with Jesus death and resurrection, just as it represented the exact same thing to Him.

That is why at Jordon, God publicly proclaimed Jesus His Son.
Whoever doesn't comprehend this is missing out on the righteousness of it all in all of US;

(Mat 3:15) And Jesus answering said unto him, Sufferit to be sonow: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Gary51 said:

This is a mistranslation.... in more than one way... First mistake, "he" should read "He" Second mistake, "born should read "begotten"​

...He has caused me to be begotten again...​

Another point.....The question of when Christ was born again takes on greater significance for another reason. True Christians copy Christ. The apostle Peter wrote, “Christ...leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps” (I Pet. 2:21).​

It is impossible for Christians to follow Christ’s example of rebirth at conversion because He was never converted in the human sense. He had the Holy Spirit from the moment His physical existence began.

Click to expand...

You are confused.

"Begotten" and "born" are both English words. You cannot prove your point referring to shades of meaning in English words. If you want to split hairs over words make your point from the Greek text for John 3:3 and 1 Peter 1:3. You will discover that in both texts the same Greek word is used, although with different inflections. So please, make the same point from the Greek, if you can.

RibI said:

Like I said. As usual you have jumped in the deep end and can't swim.

You have completely missed the context of what I have been saying so your response makes no sense.

What's new?

yourself.

Click to expand...

Really!

Made complete sense to me.

But then, I understand when born again happens.

Louw-Nida 13.55 ἀναγεννάω: (a figurative extension of meaning of ἀναγεννάω ‘to be physically born again,’ not occurring in the NT) to cause to be changed as a form of spiritual rebirth—‘to cause to be born again, to be given new birth.’ ὁ … ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς εἰς ἐλπίδα ζῶσαν ‘who … has caused us to be born again to a living hope’ 1 Pe 1:3.

Louw-Nida 41.53 γεννάω ἄνωθεν (an idiom, literally ‘to be born again’); παλιγγενεσίαa, ας f: to experience a complete change in one’s way of life to what it should be, with the implication of return to a former state or relation—‘to be born again, to experience new birth, rebirth.’ Jn. 3:3

Born yesterday Christians are not truly born again. Charismatics are on the wrong course, it doesn't lead to God.

LutheranMafia said:

Born yesterday Christians are not truly born again. Charismatics are on the wrong course, it doesn't lead to God.

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Theres a we are of yesterday people

Job 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)

The law even having "a shadow" as well (of the good things to come)

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice

Ephes 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Its kool to see a Yesterday, To day, and For ever thing wrapped into it somewhat as well.

Optimax said:

Really!

Made complete sense to me.

But then, I understand when born again happens.

Click to expand...

LutheranMafia said:

Born yesterday Christians are not truly born again. Charismatics are on the wrong course, it doesn't lead to God.

Click to expand...

Unless I am mistaken, I don't think it is just a charismatic doctrine?

besides, an hour of praying in tongues is good for the spirit.

LutheranMafia said:

Born yesterday Christians are not truly born again. Charismatics are on the wrong course, it doesn't lead to God.

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What does born yesterday Christians mean exactly?

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

What does born yesterday Christians mean exactly?

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It is a not so veiled insult, flame , etc.

LutheranMafia said:

Born yesterday Christians are not truly born again. Charismatics are on the wrong course, it doesn't lead to God.

Click to expand...

But Lutheran's, now they really got it right don't they. They got their bus ticket to heaven punched and their seat reserved. All that being born over and over again must really work for you guys.
I'm not a "charismatic" who you think isn't being lead to God. But I do know a holier than thou attitude that leads the opposite way. You might be careful. Word to the wise.

Heavens said:

But Lutheran's, now they really got it right don't they. They got their bus ticket to heaven punched and their seat reserved. All that being born over and over again must really work for you guys.
I'm not a "charismatic" who you think isn't being lead to God. But I do know a holier than thou attitude that leads the opposite way. You might be careful. Word to the wise.

Click to expand...

Good post.

Gary51 said:

This is a mistranslation.... in more than one way... First mistake, "he" should read "He" Second mistake, "born should read "begotten"

...He has caused me to be begotten again...​

Another point.....The question of when Christ was born again takes on greater significance for another reason. True Christians copy Christ. The apostle Peter wrote, “Christ...leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps” (I Pet. 2:21).

It is impossible for Christians to follow Christ’s example of rebirth at conversion because He was never converted in the human sense. He had the Holy Spirit from the moment His physical existence began.​

Click to expand...

SummaScriptura said:

Louw-Nida 13.55 ἀναγεννάω: (a figurative extension of meaning of ἀναγεννάω ‘to be physically born again,’ not occurring in the NT) to cause to be changed as a form of spiritual rebirth—‘to cause to be born again, to be given new birth.’ ὁ … ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς εἰς ἐλπίδα ζῶσαν ‘who … has caused us to be born again to a living hope’ 1 Pe 1:3.

Louw-Nida 41.53 γεννάω ἄνωθεν (an idiom, literally ‘to be born again’ παλιγγενεσίαa, ας f: to experience a complete change in one’s way of life to what it should be, with the implication of return to a former state or relation—‘to be born again, to experience new birth, rebirth.’ Jn. 3:3

Click to expand...

The Greek word which shows up in BOTH John 3:3 and 1 Peter 1:3, is γεννάω, pronounced "gen-na-oh". It is a word variously translated in the New Testament with the English for giving birth and/or "begetting".

We get the English words gene and generation from a form of this Greek word.

It is simply not true that we are able to draw a firm distinction between begetting and birthing from the Greek in John 3:3 and 1 Peter 1:3.

I'll never forget that day.
When I was "born from above". It was in Hawthorne Park in Medford Oregon. I prayed for the first time for Christ to come into me by His Holy Spirit... and He did! Was I ever speechless for so long after that, reveling in His Sonship!

Does anyone else remember the day and the circumstances surrounding being born from above? When it happens, it is more than earthquakes isn't it

... did anybody know that is what that passage says in the greek? Born again = Born from above!

(1Pe 1:23) Being born again,G313 notG3756 ofG1537 corruptibleG5349 seed,G4701 butG235 of incorruptible,G862 byG1223 the wordG3056 of God,G2316 which livethG2198 andG2532 abidethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165

αναγεγεννημενοι = "from above generation"

And we are "born/begotten" of "HER"...

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

That is how we are in these "heavenly places"

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

These "spiritual blessings" are "fruitful" offspring;

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (Children!)

Christ's wife, here' is another beautiful picture of His wife, our "mother"

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant

This New Covenant is established upon the Abrahamic Covenant by which Abraham was told he would be a multitude of nations, but expecially, "A Great and Mighty Nation";

(Gen 18:18) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Which is THIS Nation...

(Mat 21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Fulfilling one of the most beautiful prophecies of us in Christ in the O.T...

(Gen 49:22) Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
(Gen 49:23) The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
(Gen 49:24) But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
(Gen 49:25) Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
(Gen 49:26) The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

The Blessing! Which we've received in Christ!

(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Thank you Jesus for birthing us from above!

(Heb 2:13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

It is truly a family affair

In love brothers and sisters, children of the Covenant!

Heavens said:

I'll never forget that day.
When I was "born from above". It was in Hawthorne Park in Medford Oregon. I prayed for the first time for Christ to come into me by His Holy Spirit... and He did! Was I ever speechless for so long after that, reveling in His Sonship!

Does anyone else remember the day and the circumstances surrounding being born from above? When it happens, it is more than earthquakes isn't it

... did anybody know that is what that passage says in the greek? Born again = Born from above!

(1Pe 1:23) Being born again,G313 notG3756 ofG1537 corruptibleG5349 seed,G4701 butG235 of incorruptible,G862 byG1223 the wordG3056 of God,G2316 which livethG2198 andG2532 abidethG3306 for ever.G1519 G165

αναγεγεννημενοι = "from above generation"

And we are "born/begotten" of "HER"...

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

That is how we are in these "heavenly places"

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

These "spiritual blessings" are "fruitful" offspring;

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (Children!)

Christ's wife, here' is another beautiful picture of His wife, our "mother"

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant

This New Covenant is established upon the Abrahamic Covenant by which Abraham was told he would be a multitude of nations, but expecially, "A Great and Mighty Nation";

(Gen 18:18) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Which is THIS Nation...

(Mat 21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Fulfilling one of the most beautiful prophecies of us in Christ in the O.T...

(Gen 49:22) Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
(Gen 49:23) The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
(Gen 49:24) But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
(Gen 49:25) Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
(Gen 49:26) The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

The Blessing! Which we've received in Christ!

(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Thank you Jesus for birthing us from above!

(Heb 2:13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

It is truly a family affair

In love brothers and sisters, children of the Covenant!

Click to expand...