The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ Verses Calvinism

Robert Pate · Jan 16, 2011

OzSpen said:
Robert,

There seems to be an inconsistency in what you write. You give Scriptures that state thta Christ is reconciling the world, he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

But then you add that there will be a judgment. What's the purpose of a judgment if "God now sees all of humanity as perfect and complete 'in Christ'".

Are you a universalist? Are all people going to be saved?

Oz

Jesus Christ has overcome the world the flesh and the devil. "HE IS LORD"

Jesus Christ is not reconciling the world the world unto God. He has already reconciled the world unto God. The Gospel is a past historical event.

Christ now owns all of humanity. He has redeemed all, even the lost belong to him, he is now free to judge them as he sees fit.

heymikey80 · Jan 17, 2011

Jesus is under no obligation or intent to have redeemed all. In point of fact His Judgment predicted by Him in Mt 25 points to no compulsion to offer redemption to everyone. In fact the characterization is that some are simply divided out and condemned for what they've left undone. Things they thought they had done.

Robert Pate · Jan 17, 2011

heymikey80 said:
Jesus is under no obligation or intent to have redeemed all. In point of fact His Judgment predicted by Him in Mt 25 points to no compulsion to offer redemption to everyone. In fact the characterization is that some are simply divided out and condemned for what they've left undone. Things they thought they had done.

The whole Bible is based upon the fact that God is...Merciful, Just, Righteous, and is kind and loving. Christ dying on the cross for sinners is proof of that.

If you don't believe that then you should throw your Bible in the trash because he is just another sinner.

As soon as Adam sinned God already had a plan in motion to rescue Adam and his decendants form sin. He is merciful.

If God had not provided salvation for all of Adam's decendants he would not be Just. God is just.

God loves fallen humanity and has sent his only beggotten Son into the world to provide salvation for the crown of his creation. "God so loved the world." God is righteous, kind, and loving. And not willing that any should perish.

cygnusx1 · Jan 17, 2011

Robert Pate said:
The whole Bible is based upon the fact that God is...Merciful, Just, Righteous, and is kind and loving. Christ dying on the cross for sinners is proof of that.

If you don't believe that then you should throw your Bible in the trash because he is just another sinner.

As soon as Adam sinned God already had a plan in motion to rescue Adam and his decendants form sin. He is merciful.

If God had not provided salvation for all of Adam's decendants he would not be Just. God is just.

God loves fallen humanity and has sent his only beggotten Son into the world to provide salvation for the crown of his creation. "God so loved the world." God is righteous, kind, and loving. And not willing that any should perish.

if what you say is true , Noah should have built a bigger ARK .... but it was just big enough for it's purpose . to save eight humans and many animals .

I can find dozens of examples in scripture that shows God is willing that many perish , do you need examples ?

Robert Pate · Jan 17, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
if what you say is true , Noah should have built a bigger ARK .... but it was just big enough for it's purpose . to save eight humans and many animals .

I can find dozens of examples in scripture that shows God is willing that many perish , do you need examples ?

I agree that God takes life. But those that he destroyed were wicked and unrepentant.

Under the Old Covenant and the law life was harsh. Under the New Covenant there is forgiveness and restoration.

You need to get out of the Old Testament into the New. It is a whole new ball game. Christians are no longer under the law, they are under grace.

All doctrine should be tried in the light of God's Mercy, Justice, Righteousness, and love for fallen man.

If it isn't according to the above you should scrap it. That is unless you believe that God is a terrorist.

cygnusx1 · Jan 17, 2011

Robert Pate said:
Robert Pate said:

I agree that God takes life. But those that he destroyed were wicked and unrepentant.

Click to expand...

so now you agree that God waS WILLING that many perish !

Under the Old Covenant and the law life was harsh. Under the New Covenant there is forgiveness and restoration.

Click to expand...

God doesn't change , His mercies are new every morning was penned years before the N.T.

You need to get out of the Old Testament into the New. It is a whole new ball game. Christians are no longer under the law, they are under grace.

Click to expand...

It's not news to me

All doctrine should be tried in the light of God's Mercy, Justice, Righteousness, and love for fallen man.

If it isn't according to the above you should scrap it. That is unless you believe that God is a terrorist.

Click to expand...

no , all doctrine should be tried by scripture , period !

heymikey80 · Jan 17, 2011

Robert Pate said:
The whole Bible is based upon the fact that God is...Merciful, Just, Righteous, and is kind and loving. Christ dying on the cross for sinners is proof of that.

The whole Bible is based on the fact that, "God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, every where present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth."

Robert Pate said:
As soon as Adam sinned God already had a plan in motion to rescue Adam and his decendants form sin. He is merciful.

Before.

Robert Pate said:
If God had not provided salvation for all of Adam's decendants he would not be Just. God is just.

Not so.

He does not answer when people cry out
because of the arrogance of the wicked.
13 Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea;
the Almighty pays no attention to it.
14 How much less, then, will he listen
when you say that you do not see him,
that your case is before him
and you must wait for him,
15 and further, that his anger never punishes
and he does not take the least notice of wickedness Job 35:12-15

Robert Pate said:
God loves fallen humanity and has sent his only beggotten Son into the world to provide salvation for the crown of his creation. "God so loved the world." God is righteous, kind, and loving. And not willing that any should perish.

God loved the world -- that's the entirety of the world, but not each element in detail. We've discussed that God is actually quite willing that some should perish, if "destruction" includes perishing (cf Rom 9) -- but not His people, as 2 Peter 3 distinguishes who He's unwilling that any should perish.

Robert Pate said:
I agree that God takes life. But those that he destroyed were wicked and unrepentant.

So that says he's willing that some should perish. It simply does. It sets the conditions and reaches the conclusion.

Robert Pate said:
Under the Old Covenant and the law life was harsh. Under the New Covenant there is forgiveness and restoration.

"just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case." Gal 3:15

Robert Pate said:
You need to get out of the Old Testament into the New. It is a whole new ball game. Christians are no longer under the law, they are under grace.

Yes, but mistaking one as the termination of the other isn't a valid form of argument.

Robert Pate said:
All doctrine should be tried in the light of God's Mercy, Justice, Righteousness, and love for fallen man.

And truth. God's truthfulness in Scripture demands that we look with some interest in understanding what He says, and deprecate our own feelings.

Robert Pate said:
If it isn't according to the above you should scrap it. That is unless you believe that God is a terrorist.

If it isn't in accord with the Scripture, then it's to be scrapped. And you've no cause to address me directly with offensive assertions. So don't.

Robert Pate · Jan 17, 2011

Calvinist are in denial that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

"The true light that lights EVERY MAN that comes into THE WORLD," John 1:9.

"Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of THE WORLD," John 1:29.

"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son," John 3:16.

"We know that this is indeed the Christ, the savior of THE WORLD," John 4:42.

"For the bread of God is he that comes down from heaven and gives life unto THE WORLD," John 6:33.

"The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of THE WORLD," John 6:51.

"I am come a light into THE WORLD that WHOSOEVER believes in me should not abide in darkness," John 12:46.

"I Came not to judge THE WORLD but to save THE WORLD," John 12:47.

"And he is a propititiation for our sins: and not ours only, but for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD," 1 John 2:2.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of THE WORLD," John 4:14.

heymikey80 · Jan 17, 2011

No Calvinist I know denies the verses -- just the interpretation.

"I love the world!" could easily come from Caesar's lips. But he's still gonna crucify the rebels.

An understanding of what "the world" really means might be instructive as well. Here's a simple set.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Robert Pate · Jan 17, 2011

heymikey80 said:
No Calvinist I know denies the verses -- just the interpretation.

"I love the world!" could easily come from Caesar's lips. But he's still gonna crucify the rebels.

An understanding of what "the world" really means might be instructive as well. Here's a simple set.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:

the world, the universe

the circle of the earth, the earth

the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

That is indeed pathetic. And very, very, sad.

nobdysfool · Jan 17, 2011

Robert Pate said:
That is indeed pathetic. And very, very, sad.

Truth can be inconvenient.....

cygnusx1 · Jan 18, 2011

Robert Pate said:
That is indeed pathetic. And very, very, sad.

how so ?

when scripture says "behold the whole world has gone after Christ" do we infer everyone who ever lived was at the same time in Jerusalem and followed Christ ?

of course not .

again you are insisting "whole world" must mean every person when it is shown over and over scripture does NOT use the term your way .

Robert Pate · Jan 18, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
how so ?

when scripture says "behold the whole world has gone after Christ" do we infer everyone who ever lived was at the same time in Jerusalem and followed Christ ?

of course not .

again you are insisting "whole world" must mean every person when it is shown over and over scripture does NOT use the term your way .

There were thousands of people living in Jerusalem. "Behold the whole world has gone after Christ" was an exagerated expression, surely you know that.

However the apostle John was not exagerating when he said, "And he is a propititiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, 1 John 2:2.

Shulamite · Jan 19, 2011

Robert Pate said:
There were thousands of people living in Jerusalem. "Behold the whole world has gone after Christ" was an exagerated expression, surely you know that.

However the apostle John was not exagerating when he said, "And he is a propititiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, 1 John 2:2.

With respect, it is easy to misunderstand what Paul is stating here. You are reading it like this:
"And Jesus is a propitiation for our sins (the sins of believers) and not only for believers, but for the sins of the unbelieving 'world'."

In this statement, Paul is not saying that Jesus died not only for believers, but for the world too. You must understand the grammar of the day and also WHO Paul was writing to. Paul was writing to the church, the elect, AND those "whom the Lord our God WILL CALL (future)."

Paul was stating to his fellow elect brothers and sisters that God will make known His call and election to others beside Paul and other Jewish christians. Paul phrases this the way he does to show that God's call and election will stretch beyond himself and the Jews to the Gentiles (around the world) that God WILL CALL.

"All those who were APPOINTED to salvation will believe." The WHOLE WORLD in this instance was Paul's way of telling his hearers (fellow believers) that God will add to the number those who are being saved from all over the world (those who are elect from the Gentile nations, which are all over the world, a remnant will be saved!). HE IS NOT SAYING that the entire world will be called and elected to salvation.

I hope this clarifies.

Robert Pate · Jan 19, 2011

Shulamite said:
With respect, it is easy to misunderstand what Paul is stating here. You are reading it like this:
"And Jesus is a propitiation for our sins (the sins of believers) and not only for believers, but for the sins of the unbelieving 'world'."

In this statement, Paul is not saying that Jesus died not only for believers, but for the world too. You must understand the grammar of the day and also WHO Paul was writing to. Paul was writing to the church, the elect, AND those "whom the Lord our God WILL CALL (future)."

Paul was stating to his fellow elect brothers and sisters that God will make known His call and election to others beside Paul and other Jewish christians. Paul phrases this the way he does to show that God's call and election will stretch beyond himself and the Jews to the Gentiles (around the world) that God WILL CALL.

"All those who were APPOINTED to salvation will believe." The WHOLE WORLD in this instance was Paul's way of telling his hearers (fellow believers) that God will add to the number those who are being saved from all over the world (those who are elect from the Gentile nations, which are all over the world, a remnant will be saved!). HE IS NOT SAYING that the entire world will be called and elected to salvation.

I hope this clarifies.

That is some pretty good scripture twisting.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is not only the savior of the whole world but he is also Lord of the whole world.

You have no scripture to make your point.

Here is my scripture.

"To wit that God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and has comitted unto us the word of reconciliation," (the gospel)

In order for Christ to reconcile the world unto God he had to overcome and defeat the world, the flesh, and the devil. Salvation has been provided for all that want it.

Shulamite · Jan 19, 2011

No scripture twisting. I am respectfully sharing the truth and bearing witness to it as the Lord has revealed it to my heart. I make no apologies for the truth.

You and I can only receive from God. (John 3:27..."A man can only receive what is given by God). We cannot take it by self effort, force, or glean it from other men...or come to the knowledge of it by ourselves (Matthew 16:17....this was not revealed by 'man', but by My Father in heaven."

If I choose God, then I have reason to boast! If I chose Him first, then I have reason to glory in His presence. My salvation is solely His work IN me, His doings in me first.

Tell me this: Was Jesus unfair because He did not pray for the whole world? John 17:9
"I pray for them (His own), not for the world."
Was this fair or unfair? Who decides what is fair or unfair? You? Me? God?

God lays the ground-rules for existence, creation and salvation. Whether we feel He is right nor not, who are we to judge the Almighty's ways?

Robert Pate · Jan 19, 2011

Shulamite said:
No scripture twisting. I am respectfully sharing the truth and bearing witness to it as the Lord has revealed it to my heart. I make no apologies for the truth.

You and I can only receive from God. (John 3:27..."A man can only receive what is given by God). We cannot take it by self effort, force, or glean it from other men...or come to the knowledge of it by ourselves (Matthew 16:17....this was not revealed by 'man', but by My Father in heaven."

If I choose God, then I have reason to boast! If I chose Him first, then I have reason to glory in His presence. My salvation is solely His work IN me, His doings in me first.

Tell me this: Was Jesus unfair because He did not pray for the whole world? John 17:9
"I pray for them (His own), not for the world."
Was this fair or unfair? Who decides what is fair or unfair? You? Me? God?

God lays the ground-rules for existence, creation and salvation. Whether we feel He is right nor not, who are we to judge the Almighty's ways?

Jesus was praying for the disciples.

The Bible makes it clear that Christ came into the world to save sinners, (the world)

God's sovereignty does not over ride his Mercy, Justice, Righteousness and love for fallen man, only Calvinism does that.

Shulamite · Jan 19, 2011

Well, if Jesus DID come for the whole world, why did He not pray for the entire world? Is this fair or not? Please answer.

Also, Jesus said, "Many are called, but FEW are CHOSEN." Matthew 22:14

The call goes out to the unsaved as a testimony of the truth. Those who are "appointed to salvation WILL believe unto the truth."

If the call goes out to many (the unbelieving world) then why are only a few chosen? Who is the Chooser?

Robert Pate · Jan 19, 2011

Shulamite said:
Well, if Jesus DID come for the whole world, why did He not pray for the entire world? Is this fair or not? Please answer.

Also, Jesus said, "Many are called, but FEW are CHOSEN." Matthew 22:14

The call goes out to the unsaved as a testimony of the truth. Those who are "appointed to salvation WILL believe unto the truth."

If the call goes out to many (the unbelieving world) then why are only a few chosen? Who is the Chooser?

He didn't need to pray for the world because the world has already been reconciled unto God. 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. The sins of the world have been dealt with in Jesus Christ. "JESUS IS LORD"

God now sees all of humanity as perfect and complete "In Christ"

Salvation has been provided for all that want it. It is God's great FREE GIFT. Those that don't receive it are the lost.

Shulamite · Jan 19, 2011

Robert Pate said:
He didn't need to pray for the world because the world has already been reconciled unto God. 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. The sins of the world have been dealt with in Jesus Christ. "JESUS IS LORD"

God now sees all of humanity as perfect and complete "In Christ"

Salvation has been provided for all that want it. It is God's great FREE GIFT. Those that don't receive it are the lost.

This is universalism, my friend. Not the word of God. So, if I am understanding you correctly, the entire world is reconciled to God? Where did Jesus say this? Jesus clearly teaches that the goats are not His and that the goats will not enter life with His sheep.. "Many are called, but few are chosen."
Only a remnant will be saved:

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

A remnant is not the WHOLE. A remnant is a "portion" of the whole. Chosen by Grace...

Only those who are Christ's, chosen by Christ are IN Christ.

The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ Verses Calvinism

Robert Pate

Guest

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Robert Pate

Guest

Jacob the twister.....

Robert Pate

Guest

Jacob the twister.....

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Robert Pate

Guest

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Robert Pate

Guest

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Jacob the twister.....

Robert Pate

Guest

My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

Robert Pate

Guest

My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

Robert Pate

Guest

My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

Robert Pate

Guest

My Bridegroom suffered this for ME

Similar threads