ACLU's war against Catholic Hospitals

Fantine · Dec 25, 2010

I am not disputing the article about ACLU's filing a frivolous lawsuit. It will eventually be identified as the frivolous lawsuit it is.

I regret that neocon extremists are trying to use it as an excuse to ruin not only tens of millions' Christmases but the next decade of the 21st century. Bah, humbug...

As Scooge said,

``If they would rather die,' they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that.''

And Planned Parenthood's GC's are not for abortions, and wouldn't cover the cost of an abortion. They may be for lifesaving diagnostic tests.

Gwendolyn · Dec 25, 2010

ChristoEtEcclesiae said:
If Planned Parenthood wants to offer healthcare services, that's fine. Abortion and birth control are NOT healthcare services and they must cease offering them and publicly recant and repent. Until that time, they are evil.

Actually, birth control can indeed be a healthcare service.

There are many Catholic women, not sexually active, who take birth control for health reasons - like myself. Birth control is expensive and sometimes is not covered at all under insurance.

I also have some online American friends (female) who rely on Planned Parenthood for affordable healthcare, such as pap smears (necessary to maintain reproductive health) and other gynecological services. None of them have ever used PP for an abortion.

ChristoEtEcclesiae · Dec 25, 2010

Gwendolyn said:
Actually, birth control can indeed be a healthcare service.

There are many Catholic women, not sexually active, who take birth control for health reasons - like myself. Birth control is expensive and sometimes is not covered at all under insurance.

I also have some online American friends (female) who rely on Planned Parenthood for affordable healthcare, such as pap smears (necessary to maintain reproductive health) and other gynecological services. None of them have ever used PP for an abortion.

Planned Parenthood should be completely boycotted.

Remember that you vote with your dollar.

AMDG · Dec 25, 2010

Fantine said:
Besides, the bishops support healthcare.

They do not support this Obamacare. The fact that it doesn't have a provision forbidding abortion (the Bishops have seen right through the executive order, which is not law), this Obamacare doesn't protect conscience, the Bishops are not supportive of Obamacare's cutting of already medical programs for the elderly and its increasing "end of life" aspects for the elderly, nor do the Bishops care for the fact that this law does not support the Catholic social principle of subsidiarity and Obamacare does just the opposite of what it claims to do--give people more healthcare (or even just keeping it at the same level) at lower cost.

No, I don't believe they would just like to see this mildly "tweaked". I think they all agree that at present, the law is unChristian and we need and deserve real improvements in healthcare, but this Obamacare isn't it. Already costs have risen sky-high, unions have managed to get waivers, twenty some odd states have sued about Obamacare being unconstitutional (and so far some judges have said that it is and some say that it isn't, setting up a fight in the Supreme Court) while it has cost jobs (employers can't afford to employ people if there is such uncertainty) and already women with advanced breast cancer have been forbidden a drug that will save their lives for a bit more time. (Yeah, the FDA says its too "risky" (isn't death riskier?), but they fail to just come out and say that they will no longer cover it because of the expense and Obamacare and it's making all pay more so a few thousand might qualify for free care and cost cutting to do it is why there's rationing of this drug in the first place!)

Gwendolyn · Dec 25, 2010

ChristoEtEcclesiae said:
Planned Parenthood should be completely boycotted.

Remember that you vote with your dollar.

Well, I've never even seen a Planned Parenthood, let alone set foot in one, so... *shrug*

Fantine · Dec 25, 2010

AMDG said:
They do not support this Obamacare. The fact that it doesn't have a provision forbidding abortion (the Bishops have seen right through the executive order, which is not law), this Obamacare doesn't protect conscience, the Bishops are not supportive of Obamacare's cutting of already medical programs for the elderly and its increasing "end of life" aspects for the elderly, nor do the Bishops care for the fact that this law does not support the Catholic social principle of subsidiarity and Obamacare does just the opposite of what it claims to do--give people more healthcare (or even just keeping it at the same level) at lower cost.

No, I don't believe they would just like to see this mildly "tweaked". I think they all agree that at present, the law is unChristian and we need and deserve real improvements in healthcare, but this Obamacare isn't it. Already costs have risen sky-high, unions have managed to get waivers, twenty some odd states have sued about Obamacare being unconstitutional (and so far some judges have said that it is and some say that it isn't, setting up a fight in the Supreme Court) while it has cost jobs (employers can't afford to employ people if there is such uncertainty) and already women with advanced breast cancer have been forbidden a drug that will save their lives for a bit more time. (Yeah, the FDA says its too "risky" (isn't death riskier?), but they fail to just come out and say that they will no longer cover it because of the expense and Obamacare and it's making all pay more so a few thousand might qualify for free care and cost cutting to do it is why there's rationing of this drug in the first place!)

The scary thing about the internet is how propaganda can get repeated by millions of random individuals on thousands of random sites.

No wonder why the November election turned out the way it did.

boughtwithaprice · Dec 26, 2010

Fantine said:
Fighting healthcare is against the second great commandment, the corporal acts of mercy and heaven knows what else.

Besides, the bishops support healthcare. They would like to see a minor tweak...but they would never support dismantling it, because it would be unChristian and because it took decades to pass.

Your post is so devoid of reality, in that is makes several errors. The liberal takeover of healthcare has nothing to do with healthcare, only government power. I will not result in healthcare for the poor, but rather poor care. If the Bishops knew what was in it, I can't see them supporting it. The government should be completely out of healthcare, but we are stuck with what we got, until we can change it.

The Mikulski Amendment, which passed 61-39, was supposedly about correcting a problem with coverage of mammograms. It would, however, bind every health plan in the nation to cover, without cost sharing, anything that the Secretary of HHS defines as a preventative service. The National Abortion Federation considers comprehensive primary preventive health care to include abortion care.
The key point is that the plan as a whole places unprecedented power in the hands of the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Twila Brase notes that the word secretary occurs 2,489 times in the House bill H.R. 3962, and 2,500 times in the Senate bill.
Through coverage decisions, the Secretary could take much of the liberal social agenda out of the hands of a politically accountable legislature, and simply enact it.

Oh, and the November elections turned out the way they did because America is starting to wake up and see through the liberal agenda. Socialism achieves the opposite of its stated intent. It does not help the poor, it just makes everyone poor

Fantine · Dec 26, 2010

boughtwithaprice said:
Socialism achieves the opposite of its stated intent. It does not help the poor, it just makes everyone poor

And that, I suppose, is how you explain why we rank 19th in medical care around the world, and why people in other industrialized nations are healthier and have longer life spans and lower infant mortality rates than we do?

In addition, it's best to go to the dictionary for a definition of "socialism"--something Lifesite and Fox News haven't tried yet.

Meepy · Jan 20, 2011

Gwendolyn said:
Actually, birth control can indeed be a healthcare service.

There are many Catholic women, not sexually active, who take birth control for health reasons - like myself. Birth control is expensive and sometimes is not covered at all under insurance.

I also have some online American friends (female) who rely on Planned Parenthood for affordable healthcare, such as pap smears (necessary to maintain reproductive health) and other gynecological services. None of them have ever used PP for an abortion.

that's like saying I go to the german concentration camps to use their non-killing facilities and for their doctors because they give me coupons and are cheaper.

Point being. The money that they give to PP goes to supporting the whole organization and that they are knowingly supporting and using an organization and supports and commits genocide. The coupons they use stir up PP economic and business growth. Basically co-operating in an indirect way with intrinsic evil.

SolomonVII · Jan 20, 2011

Gwendolyn said:
Actually, birth control can indeed be a healthcare service.

There are many Catholic women, not sexually active, who take birth control for health reasons - like myself. Birth control is expensive and sometimes is not covered at all under insurance.
........

You are using the terms 'birth control' and 'hormone therapy' as if they were interchangeable.

There is a world of difference between the two, just as there is a world of difference between taking marijuana as a social high, and a cancer patient using marijuana as a therapy for pain and nausea.

Meepy · Jan 21, 2011

Fantine said:
And that, I suppose, is how you explain why we rank 19th in medical care around the world, and why people in other industrialized nations are healthier and have longer life spans and lower infant mortality rates than we do?

In addition, it's best to go to the dictionary for a definition of "socialism"--something Lifesite and Fox News haven't tried yet.

And maybe its best you go to a book that teaches about Catholic social teaching, cause if you did you would know that it teaches socialism is against human subsidiarity and solidarity, and considering socialism is condemned in many encyclicals and apostolic exhortations, as well as collectivist approaches like communism. I really think you should take a good read of the encyclicals Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

The Church supports something called the "living wage". Meaning a wage that calculates for each person their basic costs of daily life, calculating those costs, and putting that as a bar for wages. I think this is a wonderful idea from the social teachings of the Church. The Church upholds the private right to property for every human being and takes a distributist approach, however it tries not to label itself and says a political system is fine as long as it respects the right to life, property, food, free market, and health care. However the Church is against capitalism in a sense when it becomes abused and corrupt. Capitalism must always have certain regulations to prevent unjust hoarding and the view that capital is more important than human beings and their work. In the Churches social teaching human beings and their work is always put above the capital. Whenever capital is put above the human worker it becomes an unjust form of capitalism that the Church condemns.

"no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist" - Pope Pius XI

"The socialists wrongly assume the right of property to be of mere human invention . . . and, preaching up the community of goods, declare that ... all may with impunity seize upon the possessions and usurp the rights of the wealthy. More wise and profitably, the Church recognizes the existence of inequality amongst men"—Pope Leo XIII

Blackwater Babe · Jan 21, 2011

So... anyone actually seen a copy of the alleged letter? I think I'd like to see it and what it actually says before condemning the ACLU for it.

AMDG · Jan 21, 2011

Blackwater Babe said:
So... anyone actually seen a copy of the alleged letter? I think I'd like to see it and what it actually says before condemning the ACLU for it.

Have tried to search for just the letter, have instead found over 40 stories about it. (Here is one of those stories: ACLU Tries to Force Abortions on Catholic Hospitals | Daily News | NCRegister.com )

Blackwater Babe · Jan 21, 2011

AMDG said:
Have tried to search for just the letter, have instead found over 40 stories about it. (Here is one of those stories: ACLU Tries to Force Abortions on Catholic Hospitals | Daily News | NCRegister.com )

I see.

I hope you'll forgive me if I take this with a grain of salt then... too many times I've been prepared to come out guns blazing over an apparent injustice, only to later find out that my initial information was seriously and deliberately skewed to engineer that response.

Just remember, righteous indignation sells papers, so people will engineer something to generate it if there's nothing actually warranting it in the current news cycle.

Just seeing what I can find...

Blackwater Babe · Jan 21, 2011

AMDG said:
Have tried to search for just the letter, have instead found over 40 stories about it. (Here is one of those stories: ACLU Tries to Force Abortions on Catholic Hospitals | Daily News | NCRegister.com )

And the engineering begins to reveal itself... in the first line of the article you cite, the alleged letter is about EMERGENCY abortions... whereas from the title of the article, and, lets be honest, your OP, one could very much get the impression that the ACLU was trying to get Catholic hospitals to provide voluntary non medically indicated abortions.

Now, I know, a lot of people believe that even emergency abortion is wrong, but be fair here, you know as well as I do that most people think theres a fair bit of difference.

Lets see what else I can find...

Blackwater Babe · Jan 21, 2011

Lets cut to the chase... here's what the ACLU THEMSELVES have to say... this is all generated due to the case in Arizona where the women was excommunicated for endorsing a medically necessary, lifesaving abortion. So we're not talking about forcing Catholic hospitals to open wholesale abortion clinics here...

Blog of Rights: Official Blog of the American Civil Liberties Union » The Obama Administration Must Ensure That Hospitals Provide Emergency Abortion Care

Blackwater Babe · Jan 21, 2011

And the letter itself...
ACLU's Second Letter to Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Regarding Denial of Reproductive Health Care at Religious Hospitals | American Civil Liberties Union
I feel the righteous indignation slowing down

Rhamiel · Jan 21, 2011

Blackwater Babe said:
And the engineering begins to reveal itself... in the first line of the article you cite, the alleged letter is about EMERGENCY abortions... whereas from the title of the article, and, lets be honest, your OP, one could very much get the impression that the ACLU was trying to get Catholic hospitals to provide voluntary non medically indicated abortions.

Now, I know, a lot of people believe that even emergency abortion is wrong, but be fair here, you know as well as I do that most people think theres a fair bit of difference.

Lets see what else I can find...

but any type of abortion is a great evil
we are to act to save the mothers life, and sometimes that ends with loosing the child, but that should NEVER be the goal even in an emergency

AMDG · Jan 21, 2011

Qoheleth85 said:
but any type of abortion is a great evil
we are to act to save the mothers life, and sometimes that ends with loosing the child, but that should NEVER be the goal even in an emergency

Any type of abortion is totally against Catholic teaching.

Righteous indignation is not slowing down for me. I thought that we had freedom of religion from the oppression of the government, at least the Founding Fathers in the Constitiution noted that we are supposed to be able to exercise our religion without government interference.

Rhamiel · Jan 21, 2011

AMDG said:
Any type of abortion is totally against Catholic teaching.

that is what i said
all abortions are evil

in an emergancy we are to act to try and save both lives

sometimes we can not save both and that is sad... but still we are never to make abortions ok

ACLU's war against Catholic Hospitals

Dona Quixote

back in black

Well-Known Member

Tenderized for Christ

back in black

Dona Quixote

Legend

Dona Quixote

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Tenderized for Christ

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member of the Round Table

Tenderized for Christ

Member of the Round Table

Similar threads