Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT. (2)

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BrightCandle

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And the irony is that you have done this time and time again, and cannot even see it.

Jesus saves, no one else. A pig had nothing to do with the Jews' eternal salvation (you said that yourself), and still hasn't. Food does not save us, nor can it condemn us.

Jesus' salvation is all we need; JESUS is all we need. But if you feel you can only be fully saved by keeping the Jewish law, you have to keep ALL of it, which includes the rite of circumcision which was given to Abraham. You have been curiously silent on this matter too.
Telling people that they could be on their way to hell for not keeping part of the Jewish law, when you don't keep all of it yourself, is just inconsistent.

Oh really? What do you think this text means:

Isaiah 66:15-17

15 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD. 17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things--they will meet their end together," declares the LORD
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Oh really? What do you think this text means:

Isaiah 66:15-17

15 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD.
17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things--they will meet their end together," declares the LORD
Sounds a little like those in the Gospels and Revelation concerning the corrupt murderous Judean rulers/priest.
They weren't any better than the heathens in their works.
Remember they said they had no king but Caesar :)
 
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BrightCandle

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Nope - what we put into our bodies affects our bodies. Even you agree with that; you've been telling us for yonks that SDAs are healthier and live longer, and that scientists agree with your church on this.
What we put into our spirits, or minds and hearts, affects our spirits. This is precisely what Jesus said; that unclenliness does not come from what goes into the stomach, but what comes out of the heart.
Eating pork does not grieve the Holy Spirit - refusing to accept that it is Jesus alone who saves us from our sin; does.
And you still haven't proved that eating pork is a sin. In fact we shown you Jesus' own teaching on what is clean and what isn't. But you would rather believe the teachings of your church than those of Jesus.

You totally disconnect the things done in the body from the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. If that be the case then you do almost anything and say that it cannot effect the Holy Spirit dwelling in me! Paul didn't teach that, note I Cor.6:15-20, this is primarily speaking about sexual sin, but the same principle applies because you are dealing with the physical body and what we put in it, or do with it. That is what Joel Osteen meant when he stated in the video that he stopped eating to pork for his health and to honor God.

I Cor.6:15-20;

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."
 
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Yes, in that if you know what is right and true, but you ignore what God clearly said is unclean. Why is it so hard to give up pork, shrimp, crab, etc, etc,? There are still many other things one can eat that God made, that are not scavengers.
Well lets see. You clearly said that salvation is health dependent. Then you try to impose something that has no jurisdiction to prove your point. How interesting.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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salvation by health.:D
^_^
Pardon me while I wipe my monitor screen off....ya caught me just as I was gulping on some soothing moments tea
 
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BrightCandle

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Well lets see. You clearly said that salvation is health dependent. Then you try to impose something that has no jurisdiction to prove your point. How interesting.

God created the plan of salvation to make a way for fallen mankind to be saved, and to have a chance to live forever, this what he wanted us to have in the beginning. The 10 Commandment, the dietary laws, the example of Jesus, the prophecies, all of these things form a part of the plan of salvation. That is why what we call the Bible is made up of the OT and the NT. Some things have greater weight than others, but some are so basic, the dietary laws are one of those basic things. Daniel recognized them, and was blessed in a remarkable way spiritually and physically. God can do the same for us in 2010 if we will "trust and obey, for there is no other way to happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey" as the old Gospel song goes.
 
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Strong in Him

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Oh really? What do you think this text means:

Isaiah 66:15-17

15 See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD. 17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things--they will meet their end together," declares the LORD

And what do you think this text means?

"Salvation is found in no one else. For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". Acts 4:12

I'm not going to tell you what your text given to Jews under the Old Covenant means until you can tell me who it is who saves us and who your saviour is.

Once you've answered that question, you may want to tackle the one about why we should revert to, and be bound by, the Old Covenant, when he made a New one, sealed by his blood. Or maybe you'd like to answer the one about why I, as a Gentile, should keep Jewish food laws, when Jesus who is MY Saviour, never said that I should.

Or please do enlighten us and tell us all about your circumcision.

Jesus saves - pigs do not.
 
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Strong in Him

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You totally disconnect the things done in the body from the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. If that be the case then you do almost anything and say that it cannot effect the Holy Spirit dwelling in me!

No, but one of the exceptions is food. Because apart from anything else, it does not remain in the body for very long.

Something I did, said, read or witnessed many years ago can still affect me today; and my words can affect others. This is because any of those things might be sinful - I may have stolen from someone, and still have the memory or guilt of that today; I may have told lies, told someone they were useless or been an inaffective witness and given someone a bad picture of Christ.
Similarly, other people may have sinned against me - lied, told me I'd never be any good/wasn't wanted or whatever. I may still be affected by someone's alcoholism, or continually smoking or gambling addiction. All these things may still have an effect on me and prevent me from fully receiving the Holy Spirit or walking in the light. Maybe if I am still hurt, I will hurt others - including the Spirit.

Food does not have the same effect. The ham sandwich I ate 20 years ago has no power to affect me now; it's long gone. It had no morals, no power to hurt or turn me away from God. It went into my mouth and most of it passed out of the body again - just as Jesus said.

note I Cor.6:15-20, this is primarily speaking about sexual sin, but the same principle applies because you are dealing with the physical body and what we put in it, or do with it.

But sexual sin is very serious, involves, and hurts, other people and violates one of the 10 commandments. Eating pork doesn't.

That is what Joel Osteen meant when he stated in the video that he stopped eating to pork for his health and to honor God.

Like I said, what Joel Osteen does doesn't bother me in the slightest.
 
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Preecher

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Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, what we put into our bodies effects our spirituality. If you intentionally grieve the Holy Spirit, sin is at the door, and sin leads to spiritual death.
You're saying there are diet restrictions in the NT? Please tell us.
 
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BrightCandle

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You're saying there are diet restrictions in the NT? Please tell us.

Do you not view the OT as part of the Bible? The writers of the NT quoted the OT and the words of Jesus as their basis for doctrine. Paul did not do away with the OT, only those things that were ceremonial were done away with. Human health is not ceremonial it is a practical thing to keep the mind and the body healthy, hence the dietary laws. Laws that were good and pure and holy continued into the NT.
 
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VictorC

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God created the plan of salvation to make a way for fallen mankind to be saved, and to have a chance to live forever, this what he wanted us to have in the beginning. The 10 Commandment, the dietary laws, the example of Jesus, the prophecies, all of these things form a part of the plan of salvation. That is why what we call the Bible is made up of the OT and the NT. Some things have greater weight than others, but some are so basic, the dietary laws are one of those basic things. Daniel recognized them, and was blessed in a remarkable way spiritually and physically. God can do the same for us in 2010 if we will "trust and obey, for there is no other way to happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey" as the old Gospel song goes.
How do you reconcile this opinion with Galatians 4:21-31 instructing us to cast off the Ten Commandments, and Hebrews 10:8-9 explaining that Jesus Christ took away the sabbath and the Ten Commandments?
 
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VictorC

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Do you not view the OT as part of the Bible? The writers of the NT quoted the OT and the words of Jesus as their basis for doctrine. Paul did not do away with the OT, only those things that were ceremonial were done away with.
You do remember that the sabbath was a an ordinance that mandated burnt offerings in order to comply with the law ordering the children of Israel to keep it holy, don't you? The division of Israel's "one law" is a manmade view that Scripture doesn't support, and the manner in which the sabbath was spread throughout large portions of the law doesn't permit you to divide the law as you attempt to. It either stands or falls as a unit: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Galatians 3:10, written by Paul).
Human health is not ceremonial it is a practical to keep the mind and the body healthy, hence the dietary laws. Laws that were good and pure and holy continued into the NT.
Paul also wrote Colossians 2:16-17, demonstrating that no one has grounds to judge another concerning dietary restrictions or periodic observances such as the sabbath. The only means this is possible is by having the law driving all these observances neutered and losing its jurisdiction.
 
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VictorC

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You're saying there are diet restrictions in the NT? Please tell us.
Do you not view the OT as part of the Bible? The writers of the NT quoted the OT and the words of Jesus as their basis for doctrine. Paul did not do away with the OT, only those things that were ceremonial were done away with. Human health is not ceremonial it is a practical to keep the mind and the body healthy, hence the dietary laws. Laws that were good and pure and holy continued into the NT.
You evaded Preecher's inquiry completely with zero evidence for your contention.
 
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BrightCandle

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How do you reconcile this opinion with Galatians 4:21-31 instructing us to cast off the Ten Commandments, and Hebrews 10:8-9 explaining that Jesus Christ took away the sabbath and the Ten Commandments?

How do I reconcile obscure texts? I compare their weight with the rest of Scripture in the OT and the NT, I do not based my conclusions on NT texts only. Jesus quoted OT texts as the basis of truth in the 1st century, and yet you trump up Paul's writings as the final authority, usurping the most plain words of Jesus himself!

Matt. 24:35

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Matt. 17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
 
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How do I reconcile obscure texts? I compare their weight with the rest of Scripture in the OT and the NT, I do not based my conclusions on NT texts only. Jesus quoted OT texts as the basis of truth in the 1st century, and yet you trump up Paul's writings as the final authority, usurping the most plain words of Jesus himself!

Matt. 24:35

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Matt. 17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
And yet heaven and earth have not passed away, but we have a change of the law -Hebrews 7:12. So what is Jesus talking about in Mat 5:17-19? Clue: LK 24:44.
 
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Strong in Him

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How do I reconcile obscure texts? I compare their weight with the rest of Scripture in the OT and the NT, I do not based my conclusions on NT texts only. Jesus quoted OT texts as the basis of truth in the 1st century,

Yet both the OT and the NT speak of Jesus as the Messiah who would save people from their sins, and you ignore both of them.

usurping the most plain words of Jesus himself!

Jesus himself said that;

a) he had come to save people from their sins and give eternal life,
b) that his blood was of the NEW covenant,
c) that he had come to fulfil the Jewish law - he said this to Jews, and
d) that nothing which goes into the mouth can make a person unclean.

All these are things that were said by Jesus himself - yet you are ignoring them.

Sorry, but you are. You can't give me a straight answer about whether Jesus is your Saviour, and you claim that the words he said to his disciples mean something else entirely.

Jesus saves; he is our Saviour. We are saved by Jesus. If you claim to believe the NT, and Jesus' own, plain words - why do you not believe this? If you DO believe this, why are you so insistent that we all obey the Jewish food laws when Jesus never told us to?

Hope you've had a happy Christmas. I had a lovely turkey dinner with sausages wrapped in bacon :yum: :yum: Gammon tomorrow.
 
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VictorC

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How do I reconcile obscure texts? I compare their weight with the rest of Scripture in the OT and the NT, I do not based my conclusions on NT texts only. Jesus quoted OT texts as the basis of truth in the 1st century, and yet you trump up Paul's writings as the final authority, usurping the most plain words of Jesus himself!
This isn't consistent with your refusal to abide by the sabbath codified in the law ordained at Mount Sinai, which has been pointed out to you several times requires burnt offerings and a Levitical priesthood authorized to perform them. You also ignore the event that ushered in the new covenant, which was the death of the Testator:
Hebrews 9
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
The allusions you make to what Jesus stated were often in compliance to the first covenant from Mount Sinai. However, you dismiss the promise that Jesus made to fulfill that covenant in Matthew 5:17-18, then called attention to compliance to that covenant in verse 19, and then stated that the most compliant subset of Jewish society didn't have a chance to attain a form of righteousness acceptable to God in their lawkeeping in verse 20.
Matt. 24:35

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
Then perhaps you should consider what Jesus said as recorded in Matthew 17:24-26:
24 ¶ When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free".
Jesus taught Peter a lesson regarding jurisdiction here. The law ordained at Mount Sinai was delivered to the children of Israel, and it was them alone that covenant was binding onto. It was not binding on the King Who is naturally superior to the law He created, and it is not binding on the King's own children. And in case you weren't aware of the Gospel's intention, it was to provide a legal change in whose children we are:
John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The lesson Jesus taught Peter is completely consistent with Paul wrote in Galatians 4:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
The covenant from Mount Sinai pertains to the children of Israel during its tenure.
It does not pertain to the children of God.
Matt. 17-19

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
I commented on this above, and even suggested you follow through to verse 20:
Matthew 5:20
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
All you have done is dismiss the intent Jesus stated to fulfill the law, and you rejected His conclusion that feigned compliance to the law isn't going to grant you entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of God was imputed to Abraham by faith, and not by the deeds according to any law.
Romans 4
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
This isn't the imputed righteousness Adventism promotes, but rather lipservice (not compliance) to the first covenant from Mount Sinai that doesn't even have jurisdiction over God's adopted children.

Hence, you believe your opinion "trumps" Paul's instruction to cast off the covenant from Mount Sinai - but you didn't realize that you had rejected the Words Jesus spoke while He was here. And, you reject His disposition of the first covenant from Mount Sinai that is presented in Hebrews 10:9: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second".

The annulment of Israel's covenant with death was promised in Isaiah 28:18, Paul called attention to its end in 2 Corinthians 3:7-13, and the author of Hebrews concluded the old covenant was indeed annulled in Hebrews 7:18-19. With a total of 5 witnesses against you, I can only conclude you have rejected the entire Bible.
 
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BrightCandle

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You do remember that the sabbath was a an ordinance that mandated burnt offerings in order to comply with the law ordering the children of Israel to keep it holy, don't you? The division of Israel's "one law" is a manmade view that Scripture doesn't support, and the manner in which the sabbath was spread throughout large portions of the law doesn't permit you to divide the law as you attempt to. It either stands or falls as a unit: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Galatians 3:10, written by Paul).

Paul also wrote Colossians 2:16-17, demonstrating that no one has grounds to judge another concerning dietary restrictions or periodic observances such as the sabbath. The only means this is possible is by having the law driving all these observances neutered and losing its jurisdiction.

Wrong. Where is the command to offer burnt offerings in the Sabbath Commandment?

Note, God didn't add burnt offerings to either of these key Sabbath texts. And Jesus never added that command as well.

Genesis 2:1-3

"1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation."

Exodus 20 8-11

8“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
 
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