Why I don't do Christmas

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Melethiel

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Using all CAPS denotes SHOUTING. Is this discussion really worth the raising of blood pressure? Rhetorical question -- no need to reply.

To parphrase me previous statement . . .
Groves were NOT pagan tree gods. On the contrary, groves served the purpose of temples to the gods Pan and Artemis!

There is no possible way that the Greeks could have put a grove into the temple, because a grove, by definition, is a collection of trees, one that was often used as a LOCATION of worship.

And, as I have said before, the worship of Zeus, whose idol WAS put in the temple, was NOT associated with trees.

Please read up on Greek mythology, and then you will see how ridiculous your argument is.
 
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Thekla

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Why can't you give me a simple, 'yes' or 'no' answer?

One more time . . . 'Are you stepping away from your claim that Hanukkah is explicitly linked to the winter solstice?'

I answered (see above post from which this is quoted):

"The point of the Hanukkah example is to be found in the method used to make the claim. As in the claim being made here about Christmas, it is largely based on coincidence and supposition - not modern scholarship."
 
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Eph4:26

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Methiel . . . while you are preparing your scholarly source to support your claim . .

Groves were NOT pagan tree gods .. .
I'll provide one that refutes your claim . . .
[SIZE=+2]Grove[/SIZE]
(See ASHTORETH.) Translated rather "Asherah," the image of the goddess. So 2 Kings 23:6, where it is nonsense "Josiah brought out the grove (Asherah) from the house of the Lord"; Manasseh had "set this graven image of Asherah in the house" (2 Kings 21:7; 2 Kings 22:7; compare Judges 3:7). Also a "grove" could not be "set up under every green tree" (2 Kings 17:10; 1 Kings 14:23; 1 Kings 18:19; Exodus 34:13). In Genesis 21:33 it is a different word, "Abraham planted a "grove" (eshowl) in Beersheba," rather "a tamarisk tree," a hardy evergreen fitted to be a memorial to his posterity that the well was theirs.
The Asherah was upright, fixed or planted in the ground; of wood, so that it was capable of being "cut down and burned" (Judges 6:25-26; see 1 Kings 15:13). "Maacbah had made an idol Asherah" (not" IN grove".) The worship of Asherah like that of Astarte or Ashtoreth, was associated with Baal worship. Astarte is the personal goddess, Ashcrah her conventional symbol in some one of her attributes. The sacred tree in Assyrian sculptures is similar, a symbol of the goddess of nature. The stone "pillar" (as the Hebrew for "image" ought to be translated, Exodus 34:13) was Baal's symbol; as the wooden pillar or tree was Astarte's (2 Kings 18:4).
The attempt to combine this with Jehovah worship is the subject of the prohibition (Exodus 34:13). The Hebrew word translated "plain" (elon) signifies a grove or plantation; that of Mamre (Genesis 13:18), of Moreh (Genesis 12:6), of Zaanaim (Judges 4:11), of the pillar in Shechem (Judges 9:6), of Meonenim (Judges 9:37), of Tabor (1 Samuel 10:3). Groves were associated with worship from ancient times, as the passages just quoted show. Pliny states that trees were the first temples. Their shade, solitude, and solemn stillness suggested this use. The superstitious abuse of them to idolatry and licentious rites caused the Divine prohibition of them for religious purposes; which prohibition Israel disregarded (Jeremiah 17:2; Ezekiel 20:28).
Trees were also used for national assemblies (Judges 9:6; Judges 9:37), for burying the dead (Genesis 35:8; 1 Samuel 31:14). Some trees are specially-noted: the tamarisk (eeshel) under which Saul abode in Gibeah (1 Samuel 22:6); the terebinth in Shechem under which Joshua, after writing the law of God, set up (Joshua 24:26) a great stone as a witness; the palm tree of Deborah (Judges 4:5); the terebinth of enchantments (Judges 9:37 margin, frontMEONENIM); of wanderers (Judges 6:11, frontZAANAIM)); 1 Samuel 14:2, "a pomegranate tree in Migron" (1 Samuel 10:3).
Tree worship, perhaps a distortion of the tradition of the tree of life and the tree of knowledge (Genesis 3), may be traced in Egypt, Arabia, Syria, Assyria, Persia, India, Thibet, Siam, China, Japan, Ceylon, the Philippine isles. The Druids venerated oak groves (Pliny, H. N., xvi. 44; Tacitus, Annals xiv. 30). The black priests in Africa alone may enter the sacred groves. The Etrurians worshipped a palm-tree.

Bibliography Information
Fausset, Andrew Robert M.A., D.D., "Definition for 'Grove' Fausset's Bible Dictionary".
 
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Eph4:26

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I answered (see above post from which this is quoted):

"The point of the Hanukkah example is to be found in the method used to make the claim. As in the claim being made here about Christmas, it is largely based on coincidence and supposition - not modern scholarship."
I don't understand? Are you quoting yourself? Or someone else -- please clarify.
 
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Melethiel

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First of all, the definition of the word "grove":

grove   
[grohv] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a small wood or forested area, usually with no undergrowth: a grove of pines.
2.
a small orchard or stand of fruit-bearing trees, esp. citrus trees: a grove of lemon trees.

Notice that it is a collection of trees, not a carved idol (as the Asherim were). Your own source states that groves were the first temples! (Not that the Asherim should even be in this discussion, as Asherah was not worshipped by the Greeks.

Now, while I search my library (which may take a while, as it is all physical books, and I have final exams coming up), where are YOUR scholarly sources supporting your claim? You demand much, and yet do not provide.
 
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Melethiel

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A quick online search turned this up. Notice that sacred groves were expressly protected from harm - especially the type of harm that would come from cutting down a tree and transplanting it into a stone temple with no sunlight! Your move.

"Trees have always been regarded as the first temple of the gods, and sacred groves as their first place of worship; they were held in the utmost reverence [[3]...It is recognized that trees are not worshipped for themselves but for what is revealed through them, what is implied and signified [[16] :268; [17] :28], especially some kind of power that they express [[18] :35; [19] :359; [12] :57] or their being the abode of supreme beings [[20] :91]."

"The literature survey shows that the definitions of "sacred tree/wood/grove/forest" are by no means mutually exclusive due to the complexity of reasons for, and the history of, the sanctification of the individual tree, a tree species, or a group of trees. Several authors supply definitions of sacred forest/grove/wood: for example, "... a sacred grove is a stand of trees in a religious context" [[34] :1]; " Sacred trees... describe individual trees or woods which were treated with a certain reverence which, normally, protected them from a wilful damage "[[35] :16]; "Clusters of forest vegetation that honour a deity, provide sanctuary for spirits, remind present generations of ancestors or protect a sanctified place from exploitation. They are treated as sacred by virtue of their location, cultural meaning and history", [[36] :30]; "Sacred grove is a patch of forest or natural vegetation protected and managed by the community considering it to be the reside place of the deities or ancestral spirits" [[37] :2]; for similar definitions see also [[38] :225; [40] :49]; "Sacred groves are more or less patches of climax vegetation... preserved on a religious ground" ([[41] :272] see also [[42] :1063 ; [43] :1204; [44] :1541–1542]). Freeman [[45] :262]) criticized these "ecological" definitions because they were derived from a botanical ideal (climax) and not based on local understanding; his definition is "a piece of garden or forest land... that is dedicated for the exclusive use of particular deities"."

Atmos Dafni, On the typology and the worship status of sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East
Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine | Full text | On the typology and the worship status of sacred trees with a special reference to the Middle East
 
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Eph4:26

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A quick online search turned this up. Notice . . .
. . . that you really have no experience in understanding the Biblical significance of the citations you provided. Perhaps you should slow down and formulate a more thought out approach to your argument. :thumbsup:
 
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Melethiel

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Are you going to address the argument, or are you just going to dismiss it off hand? It seems you have no interest in actually discussing your case, but just promoting your ridiculous views and ignoring anyone who dares disagree with you.

Furthermore, where am I "exulting the merits of pagan practices"? I am merely explaining what the practices actually were! You can't base an argument off of a non-existent practice; therefore, it is important to know what the actual practices were.

There was no tree in the temple, because that was not the practice of the Greeks, and the Biblical citation you provide does not state what you say it does. I have provided documentation supporting my view and my interpretation of your data, as you asked.

Now, address the argument instead of resorting to ad hominems. For your information, I have read the Bible completely through over 20 times, in context, and have seriously studied the historical and religious context in which it was written. I actually know the difference between the worship of Zeus and the worship of Asherah; something which cannot be said for you, based on your baseless connection between the two. What are your credentials for saying that I am ignorant?
 
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SirKenny85

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I've always celebrated Christmas, and always intend to do so. Instead of linking it to pagan practices though, my only real concern is how people choose to maximize the gift giving + Santa Claus, and tend to minimize the birth of the Saviour to mankind. I have no problem with Santa, with the gifts, with the tree, but I think it is important to teach the REAL reason of Christmas, and show others that it is not just a holiday based on a jolly fat guy in a big red suit.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I'd like to take a moment and share my experience in discussing the origin of Hanukkah and how it was to memorialize tree worship being thrown out of the Temple.

It's been 3-4 years ago now, for two holiday seasons, I posted the 1 Macc 1 citations and annotations at the world famous catholic forum. There was not 1 contentious reply to my citations and commentary. And there must have been nearly 9000 lurkers at one point or another on those boards.

Have you read Maccabees in the Bible then?
And it has nothing to do with trees...it is a second rededication of the new Temple.

200ish BC.

The story is - they were short on olive oil for the eternal candle, and so for 8 days they lit a candle a day to keep the light going - enough time to not only make new olive oil - but miraculously the olive oil [which was low] held out.
Also celebrated by Christ - see John 10: 22.

It had nothing to do with trees and i would really love to see your source on this - when scriptures are quite plain to read...
THAT is - if you even have the scriptures in your Bible.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Hanukkah is also known as the Festival of Lights, and this is because immediately following the miraculous deliverance of winning a three year battle against the Syrian army who fought to oppress them from worshiping God - rather forcing them to worship pagan gods, God provided another miracle of provision in the olive oil lasting to light for 8 days.
 
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katherine2001

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In addition, this is a Christian Forum. Therefore, you should stop exulting the merits of pagan practices.

Yes, this is a Christian forum. Since pagans would never celebrate the Incarnation of our Lord in the Flesh, Christmas is not a pagan practice. For those of us who know what Christmas is really about, it is not unChristian to celebrate Christmas. If we give into Satan's attempt to get us to give up celebrating the Incarnation by bringing other elements into the day and attempting to secularize it, then Satan has won. Evidently, Satan can overcome God if that is the case. I refuse to give Christmas and it's true meaning up to those who want to secularize it. Why give Satan the victory?
 
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sunlover1

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Yes, this is a Christian forum. Since pagans would never celebrate the Incarnation of our Lord in the Flesh, Christmas is not a pagan practice.
Much of the world celebrates Christmas.
Including pagans AND posers.

Just saying
 
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GigageiTsula

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Much of the world celebrates Christmas.
Including pagans AND posers.

Just saying

I guess anything pagan, heathen, secular or otherwise can be made acceptable for Christians if a Christian label is slapped on to it. Just saying. :D
 
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WarriorAngel

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I guess anything pagan, heathen, secular or otherwise can be made acceptable for Christians if a Christian label is slapped on to it. Just saying. :D
:sigh:

Its more than a date, it's more than what pagans used or didnt use or whatever - it's CHRISTIAN because it is about Christ.
It's Christian because we focus on Christ.

Perhaps God set it up from the beginning to undo paganism...
BY taking back His creation - His symbolism, HIS ownership of all things.

And unless or until we give to Him what is rightfully His - then we in whatever type of fear - give more authority and ownership of His Creation to pagans who can do nothing more than borrow.
 
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