The Torah Death Penalty

shua-888 · Apr 9, 2010

Steve Petersen said:
The Torah does not address every possible situation that may arise in life. This is why priests and elders were given authority to decide matters in Deuteronomy 17.

There are examples in the Torah where Moses asked God .....

Steve Petersen at first it was Jethro the Midianite priest ...who summoned the intimate presence of the Almighty God [the shekinah]

7. So Moses went out toward Jethro, prostrated himself and kissed him, and they greeted one another, and they entered the tent.

...

12. Then Moses' father in law, Jethro, sacrificed burnt offering and [peace] offerings to God, and Aaron and all the elders of Israel came to dine with Moses' father in law before God.

13. It came about on the next day that Moses sat down to judge the people, and the people stood before Moses from the morning until the evening.

14. When Moses' father in law saw what he was doing to the people, he said, "What is this thing that you are doing to the people? Why do you sit by yourself, while all the people stand before you from morning till evening?"

It was Jethro the Midianite priest who delivered the commandment of God to set up able counselors for the people.

20. And you shall admonish them concerning the statutes and the teachings, and you shall make known to them the way they shall go and the deed they shall do.

22. And they shall judge the people at all times, and it shall be that any major matter they shall bring to you, and they themselves shall judge every minor matter, thereby making it easier for you, and they shall bear [the burden] with you.

23. If you do this thing, and the Lord commands you, you will be able to survive, and also, all this people will come upon their place in peace."

LittleLambofJesus · May 24, 2010

The Torah Death Penalty

What were the different ways the Israelites used to execute those who broke God's law other than stoning? Thks :wave:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised to hearts and to the ears, ye always to the Spirit, the Holy are striving! As the fathers of ye, also ye:
Acts 7:54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"

http://www.christianforums.com/t6719420-6/#post42547190
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

yedida · Oct 8, 2010

Duckybill,
I know I'm replying to an old post but here goes anyway.
It's not really so much that that particular mitzvot was for the Jews as the fact that that mitzvot and numerous others were given to a nation under a theocracy. A theocracy with Hashem as Rosh. We will indeed get back there once again - but in the meantime, we are also told to obey the government under which we now live.

When we are up against two commands that counteract each other, we must decide which is the greater. Yeshua came up against this situation many times, and of course, He always choose the correct course to take. The situation you are asking about involves capital punishment for say adultery - you would be fulfilling the mitzvot proper (that's good), keeping the sin from spreading (at least that's what's hoped - that's good) but you would be breaking the command to obey your government's laws (not good), breaking the command to show mercy (not good), you would be involving at least 2 more people in this (the witnesses who actually saw the deed done are to throw the first stones) so now you've got 2 more folks breaking the government's laws and not showing mercy. Now reverse what you've just read by 3 for obeying your government's laws and for showing mercy - which of the 2 commands is greater and brings more glory to God?
When it's all said and done, the majority of the 613 cannot be obeyed now - there is no Temple, no priesthood, no Levites - those mitzvot cannot be adhered to. There are laws that concerned the land of Israel only, those can be obeyed if one chooses (I wouldn't be surprised if God blessed those people). And, of course, men cannot obey the laws for the women, nor can women obey the laws for a man. So.....no, most people don't follow the Torah completely, but we do what we can.
Just my 2 cents worth......

yedida · Oct 8, 2010

Shalom LittlelambofJesus
You asked, "What were the different ways the Israelites used to execute those who broke God's law other than stoning?

One way that immediately came to mind is Deut. 13:12-16, sword and fire for an entire city attempting to entice others away from Hashem.
Lev. 20:14 fire for man marrying mother and daughter.
One other form of death that I can think of, but unfortunately I cannot remember the text reference. It has to do with a husband believing his wife has been unfaithful. He takes her to the priest who mixes up a concoction of water and dirt from the tabernacle floor, writes an oath that the woman agrees to...etc., etc. Anyway, the sages believed that the result of a "guilty" verdict was the instantaneous death of the woman.

ContraMundum · Oct 9, 2010

yedida,

This thread pretty much ran out ages ago. Don't hold your breath waiting for responses!

gulfstreamg4 · Oct 15, 2010

The death penality was given in Genesis for murder even before the law and is forever.

yedida · Oct 18, 2010

Thank you CM. I noticed his name in another thread about Shabbat and the death sentence. Had killing on his mind bad!! Seens like as far as he's concerned, if we can't kill the Sabbath breakers, why observe the Sabbath? Strange logic. Looks like dear ol' ducky bailed out on this discussion too, doesn't it?

MikhaelDavid · Nov 23, 2010

As someone already stated, I know this is an old thread but I could not resist to answer it...

Yes, I am one who still holds to the death penalty should still be used for those crimes which is warrantable for death which is why the sword is still given to civil magistrates (Romans 13).. To punish wickedness and suppress evil in the land and to protect the righteous. Those sins that warrant the death penalty are so abominable and so wicked that God requires those to be temporally punished by death and it is just and equable. Hebrews 2:2 tell us " every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward".. All the penal codes are a just recompence..

But does this give me the right to go around and kill people for Sabbath Breaking... No, because I am not a civil magistrate. That is the job of the civil magistrate, whether they perform their role or not and they will be judged according to their functions or lack of thereof by Christ the King (Psalm 2).

This is called Civil Theonomy. A great book about this is called "By This Standard" by Greg Bahnsen.

But here is alittle systematic run down of the civil magistracy according to the scriptures:

1. Civil Government Instituted (Ex. 18)

2. Civil Government Set Up by Four Covenants (Ex. 18; Joshua 24:25; II Kings 11:17; Jeremiah 50:5; II Chronicles 15:15)

3. Qualifications of Magistrates Set (Ex. 18:21; Nehemiah 7:2; 2 Sam. 23:2-3; Deut. 13:1,17; Jer. 30:21)

4. Laws Given to National Israel were a sight (model) for all nations (Deuteronomy 4:6)

5. Those Laws are for ever (Deuteronomy 5:29; Deuteronomy 11:1; Deuteronomy 29:29; Psalm 119:159-160)

6. Yeshua never abrogated these laws and even states emphatically twice that till heaven and earth pass away His laws will stand. (Matthew 5:17-19)

7. Those Laws are established by Him as King and is founded in equality and righteousness (Psalm 99:4)

8. There shall be ONE law for both Israel and the Stranger (Numbers 15:16,29; Lev 24:22; Ex. 12:49)

9. Gentiles Nations were judged for disobedience to that Laws (Genesis 18; Jonah)

10. Yeshua the Messiah is King Over All the Earth and over All the Nations (Psalm

47:2,3,7,8; Psalm 72:11)

11. Over all is His Dominion and He is King (Psalm 103:19)

12. Yeshua the Messiah has been given authority over all the judges, rulers and kings of the Earth and they must submit to Him and His laws. (Psalm 2; Psalm 76:12)

13. Believers are required to warn and testify God's laws before unlawful and wicked kings of nations (Psalm 119:46)

14. Those kings that do not qualify or are disqualified are a abomination. (Proverbs 16:12)

15. Lawfully Ordained Magistrates are to be obeyed as Civil Ministers of God (Romans 13; Titus 3:1; I Peter 2)

Duckybill said:
The death penalty was a very important part of the Torah, for blasphemers, adulterers, homosexuals, violators of the Sabbath, rebellious children, those of other religions, etc. Do any of you folks truly believe and practice all of the Torah commands? I.E.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (NKJV)
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

Do you know anyone who does?

yedida · Nov 23, 2010

Thank you Mikhael.
I have to say that I agree with you 99%. There is one law that I am glad is no longer active and valid. If it were I'd go only kicking and screaming bloody murder and that's the law of jealousy. The idea of forcing me to drink that horrible concoction when I'd done nothing to warrant such treatment - well, I never!!!! No way! as they say!!
I must say that in almost every one of the different "laws" I can see the love and grace of Hashem in it - but this one? No one wins, the innocent woman is forced to ingest murky dirty dust and ink, the husband of the innocent woman will never be the same in her eyes again, and of course life changes for the guilty and her husband. (I wonder why there was never instututed such a law of jealousy for the wives????)

anna ~ grace · Mar 7, 2011

In Matthew, Jesus seems to contrast the commandments of the Law with His own words :

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire....

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

(Matthew 5)

Compare and contrast might better describe what Christ seems to be doing. In light of this conversation, how do you (general, plural you), feel about the death penalty in Messianic faith?

yedida · Mar 7, 2011

Gracia Singh said:
In Matthew, Jesus seems to contrast the commandments of the Law with His own words :

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire....

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

(Matthew 5)

Compare and contrast might better describe what Christ seems to be doing. In light of this conversation, how do you (general, plural you), feel about the death penalty in Messianic faith?

God ordained the death penalty. I'm for it, but I think in some cases where evidence is purely circumstantial it might be better to have life without possibility of parole. On the other hand, when it's a known fact that the defendant did the deed I feel the courts spend far too much time on trials and waaaay too much time before carrying out the sentence (I'm talking about those actually taken on the scene or have surviving witnesses).
It's proven that the death sentence doesn't deter crime, but something must be done to protect the innocent citizens of any given place, but citiies and states spending tens of thousands of dollars to house these criminals for five to ten years before the death penalty is carried out is just ridiculous.
This isn't a "messianic" view, it's just miine. And I probably gave you way more info than you wanted. Sorry... :sorry:

rsduncan · Apr 14, 2011

yedida said:
Thank you CM. I noticed his name in another thread about Shabbat and the death sentence. Had killing on his mind bad!! Seens like as far as he's concerned, if we can't kill the Sabbath breakers, why observe the Sabbath? Strange logic. Looks like dear ol' ducky bailed out on this discussion too, doesn't it?

I realize this is a very old post, but I will reply anyway. This may be stretching the envelope just a bit.

yedida, I think you are close to the whole antinomian point of this thread: "If it is impossible to observe all 613 mitzvot of the Torah, why observe Torah at all?"

Wouldn't the answer be that MJs are concerned about following Yeshua HaMaschiach to the best of their ability and that observance of what part of Torah it is possible to obey is born of a desire to live and to live together HaShem's way?

Jews today cannot observe all their mitzvot for a number of reasons, one being the lack of a Temple on the proper site, right? Do they then set the rest of Torah aside for these reasons? No, they don't. They obeserve these mitzvot to the best of their ability and they really work hard at it. There, I think, is your example and your answer...

yedida · Apr 14, 2011

rsduncan said:
I realize this is a very old post, but I will reply anyway. This may be stretching the envelope just a bit.

yedida, I think you are close to the whole antinomian point of this thread: "If it is impossible to observe all 613 mitzvot of the Torah, why observe Torah at all?"

Wouldn't the answer be that MJs are concerned about following Yeshua HaMaschiach to the best of their ability and that observance of what part of Torah it is possible to obey is born of a desire to live and to live together HaShem's way?

Jews today cannot observe all their mitzvot for a number of reasons, one being the lack of a Temple on the proper site, right? Do they then set the rest of Torah aside for these reasons? No, they don't. They obeserve these mitzvot to the best of their ability and they really work hard at it. There, I think, is your example and your answer...

Absolutely!! Going to the ordinary, if you are given a mathematics test and there is one problem you cannot remember how to work, do you not work out the rest for the best grade possible or do you accept a 0 for the lack of a perfect score?

RisingSpirit · Apr 14, 2011

Duckybill said:
The death penalty was a very important part of the Torah, for blasphemers, adulterers, homosexuals, violators of the Sabbath, rebellious children, those of other religions, etc. Do any of you folks truly believe and practice all of the Torah commands? I.E.

I've always wondered how the Muslims view the Old Testament on death penalties. I mean here we are condemning the Koran due to violence and at the same time Christians have outdated death penalties in the Old Testament. Is it that the Koran doesn't have a new chapter or an undated version of non-violent beliefs?

yedida · Apr 14, 2011

RisingSpirit said:
I've always wondered how the Muslims view the Old Testament on death penalties. I mean here we are condemning the Koran due to violence and at the same time Christians have outdated death penalties in the Old Testament. Is it that the Koran doesn't have a new chapter or an undated version of non-violent beliefs?

You'd have to ask a muslim.
As far as many of the commands in the OT that are not followed today that deal with civil punishment - you have to remember that at the time of the giving of these laws even into the entry of the Land the Israelites were under a theocracy of God, and/or under a king who was supposed to answer to God. (Note the operative words...)
The muslim nations operate they way they do because they are virtually a theocracy under one deluded man.
Israel is no longer a theocracy, they are a democracy.
As we're on the subject, thinking Christians have such clean hands, you don't think what they've done in the name of God from the 200s all the way up to and including the 1800s every bit as horendous as the muslims of today? 1600 plus years of terrible oppression, especially against the Jews, their very own elder brethren, God's chosen people. All the while, piously thinking they were doing God's work! I shudder every time I think of it, and pray forgiveness for all of us.

ContraMundum · Apr 15, 2011

yedida said:
God ordained the death penalty.

Yes, for Israel.

The problem is that if you take the whole counsel of the Torah we do not have the authority to carry out the death penalty based on religious authority. We simply do not have the means, or valid witnesses and so forth.

The modern day death sentence cannot be stated as having its authority from God, because the state does not do it God's way either. We can however honestly state that the death penalty is exclusively secular, from the authority of the state alone, yet that God allows the state to exist for good order according to His purposes for sinful man (Rom 13).

RisingSpirit · Apr 15, 2011

yedida said:
As we're on the subject, thinking Christians have such clean hands, you don't think what they've done in the name of God from the 200s all the way up to and including the 1800s every bit as horendous as the muslims of today? 1600 plus years of terrible oppression, especially against the Jews, their very own elder brethren, God's chosen people. All the while, piously thinking they were doing God's work! I shudder every time I think of it, and pray forgiveness for all of us.

The Roman Catholics burned Christians at stake for many years. They burned more Christians than all the late wars put together. What does the Muslims think about that? If the Roman Catholics can do that then the Muslims can do what they do. How do we convince the Muslin that the Roman Catholics are, possibly, not Christians?

yedida · Apr 15, 2011

RisingSpirit said:
The Roman Catholics burned Christians at stake for many years. They burned more Christians than all the late wars put together. What does the Muslims think about that? If the Roman Catholics can do that then the Muslims can do what they do. How do we convince the Muslin that the Roman Catholics are, possibly, not Christians?

It's not just the RCs who persecuted non-RC christians. Calvin was extremely involved and instrumental in the burning death of an opponent. The majority of the so-called church fathers were deadly anti-semitic.
I have no idea what the muslims think of this. You'll have to have a conversation with them to find this out.
The muslims are going to do what they are going to do.
As far as the RCs today it is not my job to pass judgement. As in any group of people there are some faithful to the truth and some not so faithful.

RisingSpirit · Apr 15, 2011

yedida said:
Calvin was extremely involved and instrumental in the burning death of an opponent.

I read somewhere that Calvin wasn't too crazy about any death sentences. I guess death sentences were a sport in those days.

INTJ-F · May 17, 2011

The death penalty was a very important part of the Torah, for blasphemers, adulterers, homosexuals, violators of the Sabbath, rebellious children, those of other religions, etc. Do any of you folks truly believe and practice all of the Torah commands? I.E.

Just like when Moses was leading Israel and was the one to carry out judgment,
Yeshua, as High Priest, is the one to carry out the punishment now. His judgment will be fair and will occur in the future.

The Torah Death Penalty

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