The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

jax5434 · Nov 14, 2010

First, as predestination is an explicit biblical teaching, you must have some view on it. You cannot reject predestination out of hand and expect to have any credibility in your views. ALL Christian denominations have a doctrine on predestination.

In an earlier post on this thread I explicitly stated that I do believe in predestination and the calling and election,by God, of all that that he purposes to save, and that our disagreement is only about how that calling and election is worked out in our lives.

Second, God's act of divine predestination wasn't purposed in a bubble. The Cross was the means by which God decreed to accomplish that which He had determined to achieve (predestined).

[/QUOTE]
I agree. Again the question is what God predestined to achieve.

God Bless
Jax

Carian · Nov 14, 2010

I'd really like to know that if it is not 144,000 people who will be saved, why not, what a "spiritual number" is, and no, I have never been a JW, but I've often talked with them (and had to turn their lovely offer down every time because I'm way too likely to ... cause them problems with their faith, and that'd be mean.)

Oh, hang on, what? am I in the wrong room? Can someone throw me a link?

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

I could go thought the Bible and find a multiple of verses that show us the number twelve be it the 12 tribes, 12 disciple, 12 apostles, 12 gate but you see no connection. I really do not think I could show you a thing.

I have also noticed you have NOTHING to say on the matter and you would dismiss it as banter. I just am trying to get you interpretation but it does not seem as if you have one. You are just in an attack mode.

Reformationist said:
I told you, if you have Scripture in mind that you'd like to discuss, please post it and the point you wish to make about it.

I'll take a break for a bit to see if you can do that. If, when I come back, it appears you are still interested in prattling on without creating a profitable discussion, I'll leave you to it.

heymikey80 · Nov 14, 2010

Carian said:
I'd really like to know that if it is not 144,000 people who will be saved, why not, what a "spiritual number" is, and no, I have never been a JW, but I've often talked with them (and had to turn their lovely offer down every time because I'm way too likely to ... cause them problems with their faith, and that'd be mean.)

It's not 144,000 who are saved; it's not mentioned as salvation. In some views it's 144,000 from Israel who are dedicated -- sealed -- in the final days to represent God to the world in the Tribulation. In other views it's 144,000 martyrs -- witnesses -- who follow Jesus wherever He goes -- to crucifixion, e.g. -- at the start of Christian persecution.

It's humanly compassionate of you: they're causing you problems, you're not causing them problems. I generally pull out an interlinear to discuss stuff with 'em, and I'm circumspect in my answers. No reason to get into conflicts where we're really far apart. But I never talk with more than three at a time: the reason being, the psychology of a larger group tends to depress their willingness to think through what's being said where we just begin to think differently.

They're looking for eternal life, too. They think they've found it. What if they haven't? Would it ultimately be unkind, or kind to not discuss it with them?

Carian said:
Oh, hang on, what? am I in the wrong room? Can someone throw me a link?

I dunno where you'd like to head. I think it's a great question for Soteriology.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

There are all kinds of reference to spiritual numbers that can be found by a simple search on the web both pro and con.

Carian said:
I'd really like to know that if it is not 144,000 people who will be saved, why not, what a "spiritual number" is, and no, I have never been a JW, but I've often talked with them (and had to turn their lovely offer down every time because I'm way too likely to ... cause them problems with their faith, and that'd be mean.)

Oh, hang on, what? am I in the wrong room? Can someone throw me a link?

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Why would the Jews have anything to do with the Book of Revelation the most spiritual Book in the whole Bible; they rejected Chrsit. The Book of Revelation is written to those who have ears; the Jews did not have spiritual ears.

heymikey80 said:
It's not 144,000 who are saved; it's not mentioned as salvation. In some views it's 144,000 from Israel who are dedicated -- sealed -- in the final days to represent God to the world in the Tribulation. In other views it's 144,000 martyrs -- witnesses -- who follow Jesus wherever He goes -- to crucifixion, e.g. -- at the start of Christian persecution.

It's humanly compassionate of you: they're causing you problems, you're not causing them problems. I generally pull out an interlinear to discuss stuff with 'em, and I'm circumspect in my answers. No reason to get into conflicts where we're really far apart. But I never talk with more than three at a time: the reason being, the psychology of a larger group tends to depress their willingness to think through what's being said where we just begin to think differently.

They're looking for eternal life, too. They think they've found it. What if they haven't? Would it ultimately be unkind, or kind to not discuss it with them?

I dunno where you'd like to head. I think it's a great question for Soteriology.

heymikey80 · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
Why would the Jews have anything to do with the Book of Revelation the most spiritual Book in the whole Bible; they rejected Chrsit. The Book of Revelation is written to those who have ears; the Jews did not have spiritual ears.

Romans 11:25ff. Future. Not present. Plus, that's what John says in Revelation. Sounds like a plan.

Plus -- Romans 11:1.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Do not follow you?

uote=heymikey80;56108148] :yawn1:

Romans 11:25ff. Future. Not present. Plus, that's what John says in Revelation. Sounds like a plan.

Plus -- Romans 11:1.[/quote]

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

The 144,000 have to do with election, firstfruits not rejection of the jews. Read it in context.

chb · Nov 14, 2010

Gods love gift is available for those who accept it. We are not in the position to say that this person will receive the gift or not. The gift is to be shared by our testimony, teaching and providing the word of God to others. The real issue is are we sharing the gift to others, instead of debating this.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

This is a Forum. A Forum is for the purpose of debate. God's gift is not for the whole world now for God is not calling the whole world now. This is a scriptural fact. Billions cannot receive your testimony, teaching and providing the word of God to others for they are carnal and cannot receive spiritual things.

chb said:
Gods love gift is available for those who accept it. We are not in the position to say that this person will receive the gift or not. The gift is to be shared by our testimony, teaching and providing the word of God to others. The real issue is are we sharing the gift to others, instead of debating this.

anthony55 · Nov 14, 2010

chb:

Gods love gift is available for those who accept it.

This is not a scriptural truth. God Loves His own,period ! They do not need to accept it. He Loved them before they were born, from everlasting.

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

The carnal man cannot accept God's love.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

anthony55 said:
chb:

This is not a scriptural truth. God Loves His own,period ! They do not need to accept it. He Loved them before they were born, from everlasting.

anthony55 · Nov 14, 2010

Ed Bana said:
The carnal man cannot accept God's love.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It does not matter if the one Loved by God accepts it or not. God Loved them while dead in trespass and sins.

The Truth is that God does not love everyone.

chingchang · Nov 14, 2010

anthony55 said:
The Truth is that God does not love everyone.

That is true. Did Yahweh love Pharaoh?

CC

Ed Bana · Nov 14, 2010

Is not Pharaoh created in God's image?

chingchang said:
That is true. Did Yahweh love Pharaoh?

CC

student ad x · Nov 14, 2010

-MOD HAT ON-

Well folks, this thread is closed. There are reported posts and multiple violations over the last few pages. Staff is going to review the thread. A reminder of the CF posting rules:

Controversial Topics

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student ad x · Nov 15, 2010

-MOD HAT ON-
Folks, this thread is reopened. There was a post promoting Universalism that has been deleted. The tangent that ensued after this post has also been removed in the cleanup of the thread.

On behalf of CF, I express apologies to members who have taken the time to post and address the issue of Universalism.

A couple of reminders:
(1) the discussion of Universalism (the theological doctrine that all people will eventually be saved) is not allowed in any of the Theology Forums at Christian Forums except Unorthodox Theology.
(2) The topic of this thread is drifting towards an Eschatological discussion. Please remember the off-topic rules.

Carry on........

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anthony55 · Nov 15, 2010

Thanks Mod. I cannot control universalist from posting, but if I notice it again, I will warn them not ot.

anthony55 · Nov 15, 2010

chingchang said:
That is true. Did Yahweh love Pharaoh?

CC

Did He say He did ? I doubt it though, since he was made a type of the vessels that God makes to fit them for destruction. God does not Love the vessels of wrath He fits for perishing in their sins, But He loved them THAT hE DOES NOT WANT TO PERISH.

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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